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DaChickenShowYo
02-02-2002, 03:31 PM
Honestly, I don't see a point to this. I do my dynamic sets with bout 70+% of my max, and I go to a rep below failure. That really works, but is there a point in using 60% and less for only 2 or 3 reps? Do you westsiders think this has done anything for your strength? Gimme your thoughts....

Adam
02-02-2002, 03:35 PM
It made me lift way more explosively while practicing my form more. Right now im only using about 50% of my max for it too

Maki Riddington
02-02-2002, 04:50 PM
Correct me if I'm off but I would think that it has to do with the corelation between intra and inter muscular coordination.

Take two people and get them to train on being more efficient on a lift by getting one to move a heavy load explosively and get the other to use a lighter load.
Who do you think would have better intra and inter muscular coordination?

DaChickenShowYo
02-02-2002, 05:38 PM
Just a thought.... I've never seen anyone do a MAXIMAL powerlift really explosively.

Maki Riddington
02-02-2002, 05:44 PM
Correct, but I'm referring to the attempt (sp) to explosively move a weight regardless if the actually movement is slow/ fast in nature.

chris mason
02-02-2002, 06:17 PM
Good thought Dachicken. Training with light resistance in order to be able to really throw the weight in an explosive fashion is not the best way to train for increased overall strength (in my opinion). You can develop increased power with one of two methods. You can train explosively with lighter resistance, or you can increase your strength. Power equals force (or strength) x distance/time. So, if you can lift a given resistance quicker, you have increased your power. The idea behind light training in an explosive fashion is that you will increase your ability to generate quick, explosive muscular contractions. I don't think this idea is inaccurate, but I submit to you that it is not the best method to increase your power. I believe that heavy training at a high percentage of your 1RM is best for developing power. Heavy resistance training harnesses your largest motor units, and more overall motor units. It also places a greater impetus on the nervous system to develop quick, powerful contractions of the musculature (if you are going to be able to move the ponderous poundage you are attempting). Training with a lighter resistance may help to increase your ability to generate quick contractions, but they will be relatively weak , quick contractions. In other words, you are training your nervous system to generate quick contractions, but againt a non-challenging resistance. This argument applies to training which is geared towards increased maximum strength only.

Maki Riddington
02-02-2002, 06:25 PM
If the individual were to periodize ( whatever form that it may be ) these two methods then there would be a greater overall result. Anyways I don't think that using light loads by themselves is what West Side uses.

DaChickenShowYo
02-02-2002, 06:25 PM
That was my thinking. Also, why not build up your 'speed'(power) with heavy weights? Olympic maximal lifts are very fast and explosive, by I've never heard of a speed clean and press with low percentages of max :p

Of course these are different types of lifting, but I don't see how a dynamic rep with 60% of your max and only a few reps would stimulate better neural efficiency than a dynamic rep with 70+% and reps nearly to failure.

Adam
02-02-2002, 08:04 PM
Chris, do you understand westside training cause you pretty much wrote down what they do. One day is devoted to the comp lifts done for speed. Reason behind this is that it helps to be explosive and it lets your get your form down. The other day is the maximal effort day where you pick an excercise like the compitition one and max out on it. The perpose to this is to be able to generate a very large force for a prolonged period of time.

Chicken, the reason the weight is so low and you can still get more explosive is because you have to push it as hard as you can to be effective. Say you were using 150lbs. You would have to try to push it with 250lbs force in order to make it go as fast as possible.

Sayiajin Prince
02-02-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington
If the individual were to periodize ( whatever form that it may be ) these two methods then there would be a greater overall result.
i second that on personal experience

i wanna bench 400 some day, then speed bench 200
ill be mad quick

PowerManDL
02-03-2002, 12:48 AM
It does work. I'll attest to that personally--

However, I do see why you'd question its efficacy.

Truth be told, I tend to lean towards the higher end of the percentage spectrum. It seems to work better for me to use 60-65% than to use anything lighter.

And yes, from 50-65% actually does have a measurable and in fact quite pronounced effect on both power generation and muscular explosiveness (or rate of force development). As noted, however, training in this fashion alone won't develop top-end strength.

That's the whole reason that Westside uses conjugated training; the speed days are secondary to the maximal days, and only work enhance its effects. There's a very good reason the maximal workout takes place ~72 hours after the dynamic.

No, you won't find any maximal powerlifts performed explosively. At least not from the standpoint of the power developed. However, explosiveness also refers to rate of force development, starting strength, muscular explosiveness, whatever you want to call it-- its essentially how much force you can develop, by recruiting motor units, before the load is actually moved. This is what the dynamic days are designed to train, and they do a good job of it.

Olympic lifting doesn't have to be done at lower percentages for technique reasons and because the percentage is technically already low. If you can deadlift 400 and power clean 225, you're using a smaller percentage of your "pull." The analogy isn't really appropriate when the topic is powerlifting.

Finally, the dynamic effort method isn't the only way to achieve this. The static-dynamic method has been proving itself to be highly effective in my workouts. Use a load of 65-85% of your 1RM for 2-4 reps with a 3 second hold at the bottom followed by an explosive concentric. The effect, neurologically speaking, is roughly the same, and the pause has a direct carryover to powerlifting. In my thinking, its more specific to generate force from an isometric contraction than to generate force by reversing a ballistic action, where alot of the tension is going to come from the stretch-shortening reflex.

All being said, both methods have provided consistent results when applied, and both will continue to be used in my routines.

chris mason
02-03-2002, 10:33 AM
No, I have never studied Westside Training, but I have seen quite a bit about it on this site.


Let's look at this argument this way, break the training down individually. For example, let us say a trainee can bench press 200 lbs for a 1RM. This trainee decides to use 120 lbs for sets of 10 reps in an explosive fashion (not to failure). After 3 weeks this trainee attempts 200 lbs again. Much to the trainee's surprise, he cannot manage 1 rep, he can handle the 120 lbs with ease, but he has actually lowered his 1RM. Now, the same trainee then decides to train using 170 lbs for sets of 4, stopping 1 rep short of failure. After 3 weeks he attempts 200 lbs again and much to his surprise, he can get 2 reps with 200 lbs.

The above hypothetical scenario is very accurate as to what would happen in real life. Training with light weights (relatively), no matter what form is used, will do nothing for increasing maximum strength. Of course, Westside obviously combines the 2 styles of training. In theory, I suppose their thoughts are that the 2 styles are synergistic. In my opinion, that is not the case, at least not in the sense in that the light training will make one more "explosive" with heavier resistances. I think they may have come to their conclusion based on the fact that this cycling of training allows for recovery between maximal, heavy sessions, nothing more. Powerman believes as Westside does, and I can respect their opinions, but I think they are incorrect. Now, please note that I am making my argument against this style of training for the development of maximum demonstrable strength (or 1RM), nothing else.

Paul Stagg
02-03-2002, 01:18 PM
Remember, too, that when you read about Westside training, the maximums are normally with equipment.

Thos of us who lift without equipment tend to do our DE work with a little higher percentage.

PowerManDL
02-03-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by chris mason

Let's look at this argument this way, break the training down individually. For example, let us say a trainee can bench press 200 lbs for a 1RM. This trainee decides to use 120 lbs for sets of 10 reps in an explosive fashion (not to failure). After 3 weeks this trainee attempts 200 lbs again. Much to the trainee's surprise, he cannot manage 1 rep, he can handle the 120 lbs with ease, but he has actually lowered his 1RM. Now, the same trainee then decides to train using 170 lbs for sets of 4, stopping 1 rep short of failure. After 3 weeks he attempts 200 lbs again and much to his surprise, he can get 2 reps with 200 lbs.


That's the case, yes. But no (halfway intelligent) advocate of light weight ballistic training is going to prescribe sets of 10 for explosiveness training. I do see your point, however, and I did some digging through Supertraining to support this one way or another. I found some pretty interesting stuff.

Turns out that starting strength at a high % of your 1RM is best enhanced by using heavier relative loads. And that, as I'd previously surmised, developing explosive-isometric tension also aids starting strength tremendously.

However, in defense of dynamic effort training, it does appear to reduce the strength deficit between the force the muscle is capable of generating, and the force it can generate through voluntary effort. Additionally, it aids in acceleration strength, which is the ability to keep accelerating a load after its begun moving.

For those reasons, I feel that dynamic-method training still has a place, even though you're correct that it won't directly improve the 1RM.