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View Full Version : BF 23% What should i cut down too ?



projectaero
09-10-2006, 08:03 AM
Hey guys,
Just wanting to get your opinion on what size i should cut down too.
I have given myself from today to December 15th to cut down before i start a bulking phase.
As i dont wanto start bulking now as i have a high bf%

My pic located here:

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/716/bbmh0.jpg

As you can see in the last pic (Side Triceps) the gut i have on me, Sorry i havent got a front relaxed shot forgot to take that photo.

Here are my specs:
Age 22
Height (cm) 178 5'10
Weight (lbs) 176
Bf% 23
Fat 41
LBM 135

What i am wanting to know tho is when will be the correct time to clean bulk.
I have thought of going down to 155 pounds then bulk or 15% bf but i am unsure.

Any help would gladly be appreciated.

Con
09-10-2006, 08:14 AM
Its all about preference If im not mistaken. When would you be comfortable putting back on some fat is a question you must answer.

Only outside influence thats affects my decision on when to bulk, is that Lyle Mcdonald says after a cetain bf%(think its 15) you body will start storing more weight as fat due to hormones or something.

Hope I helped.

projectaero
09-10-2006, 08:32 AM
thx,
well i would rather go to the best bf% to bulk then clean bulk from there.
No use going down to 155 pounds if i can bulk at 165 you know what i mean.

Stumprrp
09-10-2006, 08:47 AM
hey man i personally dont think you look 23%, maybe 20. id cut like 20 lbs and then bulk.

MeHoW
09-10-2006, 09:39 AM
Cut down to 7% and bulk to 12-14%. For estethic and other reasons.

I've read an article on T-Nation that said that bulking above 14% is pointless for everyone, and bulking above 12% is pointless for most.

It had something to do with hormones and bodyfat being related to estrogen levels or something.

Con
09-10-2006, 10:09 AM
Could you post a link?

I said roughly the same thing but not as extreme.

projectaero
09-10-2006, 11:36 AM
yer a link would be great :)
in regards to that tho 7%bf would take alot to get down to from 20... as its real hard to go from 10-7%

MeHoW
09-10-2006, 12:45 PM
Yes, it's hard to get down to 10% from 25%. I'm doing it myself.

I was 25% in April. I'm 9-10% now. It's worth every sacrifice you can imagine. And don't get discouraged cause the REAL changes take place below 12%.

I'm gonna try to find that link later on and post it in this thread.

Here's one link:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460718
(Look towards the bottom, it's the last question)

And another, that advocates a 10%-15-17% bulking or something like that:
www.higher-faster-sports.com/trainingphilosophy.html

SilverYello
09-10-2006, 08:08 PM
Cut down to 7% and bulk to 12-14%. For estethic and other reasons.

I've read an article on T-Nation that said that bulking above 14% is pointless for everyone, and bulking above 12% is pointless for most.

It had something to do with hormones and bodyfat being related to estrogen levels or something.


This seems to go against everything everyone on here has said??? A lot everyday people dont make it below 10%. The article makes mention that while on a cut the subjects lost much more lean mass than fat mass. Thus the bulking was pointless. Were the subjects on a high protein diet? What about the guy on here that was on the all Nitrean diet and he lost something like 8 lbs of lbm and 40lbs of fat?

MeHoW
09-10-2006, 09:55 PM
This seems to go against everything everyone on here has said???

No, I don't think it does.


A lot everyday people dont make it below 10%.

If you're on this forum then you're not an everyday person. You watch what you eat and excercise. Wast majority of everyday people don't do that.


The article makes mention that while on a cut the subjects lost much more lean mass than fat mass.

Without excercise, it was only calorie reduction. That study is not that great but it has some validity to it.

All I was saying is that you probobally will get the best compromise between size and aestetics if you cut down to about 10%, and that's not that ridiculusly hard. It's not easy, but it's by no means undoable. Let's face it you'll have to get rid of that fat eventually.

SilverYello
09-11-2006, 09:25 AM
The truth was that i was doing homework while browsing that article. So I did not read the study in full.

But basically what your stating is cut down to 10% and then bulk up. Then the cut will take minimal time when you reach say 16%.

However if you bulk from 16%-20% persay; it would take months for the cut down to 10%. Also some people may be uncomfortable at 20%. (I know I would)

I was just looking at it from my perspective. I am 16-17% right now (so my scale says-- rough crude estimate) and I feel if I cut right now I'd look anorexic due to my vacation from lifting. If its all personal preference on look then Im going to keep bulking. But, if there is some validity to only bulking to 14-16% then I'll start a cut. Wish we had some more studies.

ArchAngel777
09-11-2006, 11:01 AM
Hey guys,
Just wanting to get your opinion on what size i should cut down too.
I have given myself from today to December 15th to cut down before i start a bulking phase.
As i dont wanto start bulking now as i have a high bf%

My pic located here:

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/716/bbmh0.jpg

As you can see in the last pic (Side Triceps) the gut i have on me, Sorry i havent got a front relaxed shot forgot to take that photo.

Here are my specs:
Age 22
Height (cm) 178 5'10
Weight (lbs) 176
Bf% 23
Fat 41
LBM 135

What i am wanting to know tho is when will be the correct time to clean bulk.
I have thought of going down to 155 pounds then bulk or 15% bf but i am unsure.

Any help would gladly be appreciated.

I have no idea how you could be 23% body fat... Geez, I would say 16-17% or so.

Eszekial
09-11-2006, 11:05 AM
Lyle McDonald suggests to cutdown between 12-15% before you begin a bulk. I don't know the science or pseudo science behind it, but supposedly it positively effects nutrient partioning, which is a good thing.

Lyle is a pretty intelligent diet guru.

MixmasterNash
09-11-2006, 11:20 AM
You should eat more protein and lift heavy weights.

KarateBoy
09-11-2006, 12:17 PM
The lower you go, the better muscle:fat ratio you'll have when you do begin to bulk.

SilverYello
09-11-2006, 12:17 PM
Lyle McDonald suggests to cutdown between 12-15% before you begin a bulk. I don't know the science or pseudo science behind it, but supposedly it positively effects nutrient partioning, which is a good thing.

Lyle is a pretty intelligent diet guru.


So who to believe? Lyle says cut down to below 15% and then bulk. He is well respected.

or

Stop bulking at 15%?

Im going with Lyle.

KarateBoy
09-11-2006, 12:18 PM
I have no idea how you could be 23% body fat... Geez, I would say 16-17% or so.


I can see it.

SilverYello
09-11-2006, 12:22 PM
Sorry project I kind of high jacked your thread.

Pertaining to your post I'd bulk for a few months then cut. Just do a slow clean bulk. I cut from 18 down to 14%. I was a little disappointed. I was skinny and meager, like a stick. Get some meat on the frame under the fat. (Like I'm doing) Then cut and continue to lift hardcore. More happy :-D

KarateBoy
09-11-2006, 12:47 PM
Sorry project I kind of high jacked your thread.

Pertaining to your post I'd bulk for a few months then cut. Just do a slow clean bulk. I cut from 18 down to 14%. I was a little disappointed. I was skinny and meager, like a stick. Get some meat on the frame under the fat. (Like I'm doing) Then cut and continue to lift hardcore. More happy :-D

So you were happy "looking" bigger at 18% then being healthier at 14%? :rolleyes:

Invain
09-11-2006, 02:09 PM
I can see it.


I can't? If I were him I'd try a clean bulk. I don't see any reason to cut yet.

KarateBoy
09-11-2006, 03:35 PM
I can't? If I were him I'd try a clean bulk. I don't see any reason to cut yet.

Well your visual impairment is not a reason for him to get fatter.

For the OP's health I must speak up. There is no reason why you can't gain some muscle cutting from 23%.

The higher you get the longer and longer its going to take to finish cutting (thereby hating it more and making it difficult to stary motivate) and once you get to 10-15% you're never really going to want to bulk above that.

My friend was almost exactly the same bf, 23-25%, before he started. Now he's lost 25 lbs of fat, gained almost 10 lbs of muscle, and never going above 10% again.

SuperTerrorizer
09-11-2006, 03:39 PM
I'm in the same boat (25% bf) and have decided to cut down until I can see outlines of my abs. Whatever % that is, is where I'm gonna bulk at.

Gabrielle
09-11-2006, 03:55 PM
just keep working out, while slowly dieting if that is your preference. I believe in a slow and steady approach, good luck

MeHoW
09-11-2006, 04:59 PM
I can't? If I were him I'd try a clean bulk. I don't see any reason to cut yet.

Look again.
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/418/bbmh0xu3.jpg
There is no reason why one should sacrifice nothing (because at this point we can't speak of vanity reasons) for health reasons.

That line is what you should cut off before you start bulking. Don't do a hardcore cut dropping your cals through the floor. Eat at least 1g protein/bodyweight and cut out simple sugars, change the rest of carbs to slow burning and lift heavy - concentrate on getting your lifts to go up.

And most importantly, give it time and give it time and believe in yourself.
It will get grueling around 15%. But stick with it - remember nothing tastes as good as looking good
feels.

Looks to me like you need to drop to around 150lbs and go from there.

nhlfan
09-11-2006, 05:20 PM
get to 160 and then bulk.

Invain
09-11-2006, 05:30 PM
It's hard to say how he really looks unless we see him in person. Honestly, from all the pics besides the one MeHoW drew the line on, it doesn't look like his body fat is that dang high. That particular picture can drastically change due to his stance and angle. I could easily take the same picture and make my stomach stick out just as far. Now, I didn't notice before that he said he had a gut. I guess he would know, right? I was only going by the pictures. Honestly, if you looked at all those pics besides the side-tri one, and said he had a high body fat, your the one with a visual impairment.

MeHoW
09-11-2006, 05:34 PM
It's hard to say how he really looks unless we see him in person. Honestly, from all the pics besides the one MeHoW drew the line on, it doesn't look like his body fat is that dang high. That particular picture can drastically change due to his stance and angle. I could easily take the same picture and make my stomach stick out just as far. Now, I didn't notice before that he said he had a gut. I guess he would know, right? I was only going by the pictures. Honestly, if you looked at all those pics besides the side-tri one, and said he had a high body fat, your the one with a visual impairment.

All the other pictures his stomach is sucked in, or seems flexed.
No reason to get offended.
We're just trying to help the guy out, not start a war.

Invain
09-11-2006, 05:38 PM
I'm not offended. I just think some people are taking his current body fat a little extreme. Looking back at other threads with people asking for the same advice as this one, there's definitely a few with higher body fat that have chosen to bulk. I don't want projectaero thinking he's a lard***, because he's definitely not.

MeHoW
09-11-2006, 05:44 PM
He's def. at a bodyfat where bulking would do more harm then good, which is what most people have been trying to stress throughout the thread.

projectaero
09-11-2006, 08:28 PM
hey guys thanks so much youv really helped me.
I say clean cut till i get rid of the gut, cardio my arse off 3 days a week. weight train 3 days a week.

MeHoW
09-11-2006, 09:07 PM
That's a surefire way to lose muscle. Cut the cardio down to like 1 day max. No need to lose weight through cardio, doesn't burn nearly as many calories and leaves you with gross amounts of cortisol.

Just create a caloritic deficit using diet and lift heavy, lifting takes a huge toll on your body as it is.

projectaero
09-11-2006, 09:24 PM
Hey guys hows it going.
Thanks for all the help in regards to my BF% and what you think i should do.

I have taken some relaxed shots to give you a better understanding of my weight and advice you think i should take on board.

My Photos (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1802/relaxedzw1.jpg)

Any help is great :)
Cheers

MeHoW
09-11-2006, 09:57 PM
Yeah, cut down to about 150.

Lift hard and eat clean. Don't overkill it with cardio.

projectaero
09-11-2006, 11:10 PM
how about weight training M W F and HIIT working my way up to 15 min starting at 4 Tu Th Sat - Rest Sunday

So about my physique you can see the gut is pretty bad, you all reckon cut ?

JustinASU
09-12-2006, 06:18 AM
He doesn't have anything to cut down to. Bulk clean and slow and hit the weights heavy. A cut at this point wouldn't do a lot of good. You need more lean body mass first.

projectaero
09-12-2006, 07:22 AM
what about the size of my stomach atm tho.
I am doing HST which is for strength gains, as i am only lifting 10-20 kilo 1x15 reps at the moment.

ArchAngel777
09-12-2006, 07:32 AM
[QUOTE=MeHoW]Look again.
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/418/bbmh0xu3.jpg
QUOTE]

The guy isn't even posing with proper posture. Look at the way he is standing..!?!?!?! You can't simply draw a vertical line in those situations. That is grossly inaccurate.

It reminds me of those photos of before and after that most people do... The before is done bloated with no attempt to look good... The after is with a nice tan and posed all nice for the snapshot...

Anyway, the OP isn't 'fat' by any means.

projectaero
09-12-2006, 09:02 AM
Hey guys.
This is a some relaxed photos i took.
Going by these you can see my gut is the main place of fat,
i have a low amount of LBM
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1802/relaxedzw1.jpg

ArchAngel777
09-12-2006, 10:13 AM
Based on those pictures, I will make a few notations...

1) Your posture is terrible :D

2) You are certainly not 23% body fat. I would say around 18%.

3) Your gut probably isn't as big as it looks. What I mean, is that you probably like to eat a lot in one sitting... That stretches out the stomach lining over time... Then again, you could just have a lot of visceral fat (fat located INSIDE you).

You certainly could use some more muscle to you, but if I were in your position, I would probably eat near maintenance and train my ass off. You can recompose over time. I'd give it 6 months with a relatively clean diet high in protein and check back then. I think you will be amazed at the results.

Lift Heavy - Do Squats, Dead Lifts, and whatever else you want. But make sure to get those two core exercises in. It will help greatly for your posture and core.

Invain
09-12-2006, 02:00 PM
:withstupi

That's what I've been saying this whole time. Especially now that he has a relaxed front shot, he doesn't even have a real gut yet. His posture is bad on the side pics, that's the only reason it sticks out so far. Like I said, I could easily make myself look the same.

(Apparently though Karateboy thinks I have a visual impairment?)

projectaero
09-12-2006, 08:32 PM
I do full body split 3 days a week:

Squats
Deadlift
Bent Over Barbell Row
Bench Press
Military Press
Barbell Curls
Close Grip Bench
Abs

But for that i am only lifting 20-40 pounds following HST.

So i cant train intensity or lift hard and heavy, following the HST principle and see how i go.

I know the posture is bad i went and saw a chiro once but costed me too much to continue it.

My main concern with clean bulk is that if i am say 16%bf or so, that if i clean bulk that in 12 months my BF will be pretty high say mid 20's and not around high teens when i cut u know?

MixmasterNash
09-13-2006, 10:03 AM
In addition to deads and squats, work your abs to maintain good postures. Work your abs with heavy resistance, not high rep crunches.

Eszekial
09-13-2006, 11:02 AM
With his current physique, it's pretty clear a cut is going to do him more good then a bulk.

He is going to get some mad newbie gains... This is going to be an exercise in body recomp and not in cutting or bulking.

Guido
09-13-2006, 03:11 PM
People are making it more complicated than it needs to be.

Lift heavy and consistently, continue to increase weight
Eat clean and at or just below maintenance
Report back in a few months
I guarantee you will have a lower bodyfat % whether you actually have lost weight or not.

Patz
09-13-2006, 11:05 PM
i wouldnt cut. you aren't carrying an appreciable amount of muscle mass.

i also wouldnt bulk.

do what guido and mixmasternash said.