How essential are BCAA's to muscular growth?

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

Can somebody give me some sort of explanation of what the body does with BCAA's to build muscle. I know they help to keep you from being catabolic, but other than that what else? My other question is, do you get anabolic by working out, and stay anabolic by eating protein, or can you get anabolic from eating protein? This question worries my because I lift at night around 7:00, and if lifting gets me anabolic, that means that I eat another meal before i go to bed after my workout, and have to wake up again twice during the night to drink a casien protein shake. What happens to the bulk of my protein that I eat throughout the day, when I am not anabolic?

[Holto]

Anabolism:

The state in which the body builds things like tissue (ie: muscle).

Catabolism:

The state in which the body breaks down things like tissue (ie: muscle).


The bodies state of anabolism is determined entirely by energy balance.

Energy In (Food) VS Energy Out (Activity)

If you are in a state of energy deficit no amount of BCAA's are going to shift you into anabolism.

The bottom line is that we get tons of BCAA's and glutamine any time we eat protein. Eat protein at each meal and you will never have to think about either BCAA's or glutamine.

If you want to stay anabolic throughout the majority of the day do the following.

1) Figure out your maintenance calories
2) Eat above maintenance

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

Ok thanks, I am eating above maintenance calories, protein at every meal, and glutamine with my breakfast protein shake. Thanks you answered my question thoroughly.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Ditch the glutamine in your breakfast protein shake.

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

Why ditch the glutamine, I was told that glutamine increases the production of growth hormones in your body.

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

I meant to say I have the glutamine before a workout with my creatine.

[Holto]

Glutamine has benefits. This is one of many reasons why we eat protein at each meal.

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

I do eat protein at every meal, so is it worth taking an extra 10g of glutamine a day, what will happen to the glutamine if I dont use it.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

It's not worth anything taking an extra 10 grams a day unless you're deficient of it in your diet, in which case, you'd need to fix your diet, not take Glutamine.

[Holto]

So is it worth taking an extra 10g of glutamine a day.

Negatory.

What will happen to the glutamine if I dont use it.

May as well finish it off. Just don't buy any more.

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

ok thanks guys, does the same go for the BCAA's. Arent Free Form BCAA's different than the ones found in meat, or whey protein. Shouldnt I be having more leucein in my diet than I am getting in meat and whey.

[Slim Schaedle]

an old thread that may be of interest...

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=76883&highlight=BCAA%27s

[Holto]

ok thanks guys, does the same go for the BCAA's. Arent Free Form BCAA's different than the ones found in meat, or whey protein. Shouldnt I be having more leucein in my diet than I am getting in meat and whey.

This is exactly what the charlatans want you to think.

From the labels I'm reading, most BCAA products are WHEY.

[cakedonkey]

From the labels I'm reading, most BCAA products are WHEY.

Not quite true. That's the poorly formulated products such as things like TwinLab Amino Fuel which are, as you say, just whey protein. What about Xtreme Formulations ICE or Scivation Xtend which is a properly dosed, 2:1:1 ratio of the BCAA? Free-form BCAA have quite a bit of merit in bodybuilding and sports nutrition.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Free-form BCAA have quite a bit of merit in bodybuilding and sports nutrition.Not really. All the amino acids you need are in the protein you eat every day.

[Holto]

Free-form BCAA have quite a bit of merit in bodybuilding and sports nutrition.

Please explain.

As for the source, either they come from food or they are completely SYNTHETIC.

[cakedonkey]

We already went over this earlier guys... I found all of the literature I could but yet my words are falling of deaf ears. Believe what you'd like, but the science--and results--speak volumes for how much merit free-form BCAA and/or L-leucine have.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

but the science--and results--speak volumes for how much merit free-form BCAA and/or L-leucine have.No it doesn't.

[Holto]

We already went over this earlier guys... I found all of the literature I could but yet my words are falling of deaf ears. Believe what you'd like, but the science--and results--speak volumes for how much merit free-form BCAA and/or L-leucine have.

Show me a study where the group taking BCAA or L-Leucine gained more LBM, strength or lost more fat and I will rush out and by them.

[Slim Schaedle]

We already went over this earlier guys... I found all of the literature I could but yet my words are falling of deaf ears. Believe what you'd like, but the science--and results--speak volumes for how much merit free-form BCAA and/or L-leucine have.
Do you work for a supplement company?

SAN, maybe?

[Holto]

Lol

Yes, I beleive that sig of his violates the terms of service.

[cakedonkey]

Do you work for a supplement company?

SAN, maybe?

Chris hasn't complained about it. If he does, I'll remove it instantly, as I have much respect for Chris.

We're going to settle this once and for all. My good friend Layne Norton, B.S. Biochemistry, IFPA/NGA Professional Natural Bodybuilder, should be able to put you guys in your place.

[Slim Schaedle]

Chris hasn't complained about it. If he does, I'll remove it instantly, as I have much respect for Chris.

We're going to settle this once and for all. My good friend Layne Norton, B.S. Biochemistry, IFPA/NGA Professional Natural Bodybuilder, should be able to put you guys in your place.
I am not involved in this debate, but in the case that your friend contributes, I would like complete, detailed explanations, along with pathways, etc etc....not just another study and whatnot

[Holto]

Layne Norton, B.S. Biochemistry, IFPA/NGA Professional Natural Bodybuilder, should be able to put you guys in your place.

Just a bachelor degree?

We have guys here with masters degrees in Biochem/Pharmacology etc.

With all these studies done on BCAA's you would think at least one of them would measure body composition. I'm pretty sure I know why they don't.

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=910343&highlight=BCAA%27s
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=856624&highlight=BCAA%27s

I know this is from a different forums website, but it may shed some light on a few issues with glutamine and BCAA's. The second thread is a little bit mroe in depth.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

No, the bodybuilding.com forums aren't going to help anything.

[Holto]

Glutamine enhances your immunity system.

LMAO

[Davidelmo]

I'm always slightly confused about this for the following reason. I'll try my best to explain:

I get lots of BCAAs when I eat meat or drink a protein shake. Therefore in terms of the number of grams of BCAAs I get, I have more than enough to use for muscle-building etc etc (of course assuming I am in positive energy balance, working out etc.)

However, consider the arginine debate- another amino acid that people like to isolate and take by itself. I can have a shake with 2g of arginine in it (most whey proteins have around 500mg per 30g scoop), plus all of the other amino acids in the shake. Will I get the famous "pump" associated with arginine? Probably not.

However, if I take 2g arginine by itself before a workout, I will.

What is the difference here? Is it to do with relative concentration of the amino acid? In the first case, it is "diluted" amongst the other aminos, but in the second case it is by itself. I honestly can't think of a reason. The AMOUNT of arginine is the same, but the fact that it is by itself makes a difference.

Could this not be applied to BCAAs and glutamine too? Yes I get a lot in total from the protein I eat, but would adding isolated BCAAs or glutamine make any difference?

Did that make sense?

[LiFtHaTiRoN]

LMAO


I dont know why you are laughing, Glutamine has powerfull antioxidants that protect your body from free radicals. If for no other reason take glutamine so that you do not get sick. Your body depletes its glutamine stores when you workout, and thus making you more prone to illnesses. So logically if you supplemented with glutamine you would have an enhanced immune system.

[Davidelmo]

I think it was the term "immunity system" that made him laugh and not the fact itself, lol.

[Holto]

Glutamine has powerfull antioxidants that protect your body from free radicals.

Can you name one of these antioxidants?

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

I dont know why you are laughing, Glutamine has powerfull antioxidants that protect your body from free radicals. If for no other reason take glutamine so that you do not get sick. Your body depletes its glutamine stores when you workout, and thus making you more prone to illnesses. So logically if you supplemented with glutamine you would have an enhanced immune system.:windup:

[Slim Schaedle]

I'm always slightly confused about this for the following reason. I'll try my best to explain:

I get lots of BCAAs when I eat meat or drink a protein shake. Therefore in terms of the number of grams of BCAAs I get, I have more than enough to use for muscle-building etc etc (of course assuming I am in positive energy balance, working out etc.)

However, consider the arginine debate- another amino acid that people like to isolate and take by itself. I can have a shake with 2g of arginine in it (most whey proteins have around 500mg per 30g scoop), plus all of the other amino acids in the shake. Will I get the famous "pump" associated with arginine? Probably not.

However, if I take 2g arginine by itself before a workout, I will.

What is the difference here? Is it to do with relative concentration of the amino acid? In the first case, it is "diluted" amongst the other aminos, but in the second case it is by itself. I honestly can't think of a reason. The AMOUNT of arginine is the same, but the fact that it is by itself makes a difference.

Off the top of my head, one reason may be the nature of absorption of AA's.

Large amounts one one, particularly free form, will inhibit the absorption of others, only for a period of time (which I would really like to know the length of)

Arginine found in whey would be absorbed into the enterocyte as a peptide and not free form.

Additionally, arginine is recommended to be taken on a relatively empty stomach (for the pump effect) and I am guessing the reasoning has to do with the absorptive nature described above.

It's kind of like drinking alcohol (which has digestion "preference" over all other macros) with a huge meal, compared to drinking it on an empty stomach.

The results are much different.

[Davidelmo]

Off the top of my head, one reason may be the nature of absorption of AA's.

Large amounts one one, particularly free form, will inhibit the absorption of others, only for a period of time (which I would really like to know the length of)

Arginine found in whey would be absorbed into the enterocyte as a peptide and not free form.

Additionally, arginine is recommended to be taken on a relatively empty stomach (for the pump effect) and I am guessing the reasoning has to do with the absorptive nature described above.

It's kind of like drinking alcohol (which has digestion "preference" over all other macros) with a huge meal, compared to drinking it on an empty stomach.

The results are much different.

Thanks Slim. So IMO the argument of "well, I get lots of BCAA from my normal protein intake" falls slightly flat on the principle.

Whether or not supplementing extra BCAA of glutamine makes any difference is another debate altogether. Tjhe only studies I've seen for glutamine were in burns patients or in AIDS patients who have lost significant muscle mass. In both cases, the dose given was 40g a day... i'm not sure how long I can afford that when 500g of the stuff costs £25. That's £2 a day i could spend on food :rolleyes:

[Davidelmo]

:windup:

maybe he's thinking of glutathione?

[Holto]

Thanks Slim. So IMO the argument of "well, I get lots of BCAA from my normal protein intake" falls slightly flat on the principle.

I see where you are going with this however the studes on BCAA show an elevation in protein synthesis VS not eating.

The group that is not eating is not representing bodybuilders.

I get your point though re: Arginine having a very specific effect when taken on it's own.

I'm suggesting that eating meals with protein elevates protein synthesis. We eat several times a day and especially around training. To get me to buy BCAA based on research I need to see my lifestyle represented in the study.

[Slim Schaedle]

I see where you are going with this however the studes on BCAA show an elevation in protein synthesis VS not eating.

The group that is not eating is not representing bodybuilders.

I get your point though re: Arginine having a very specific effect when taken on it's own.

I'm suggesting that eating meals with protein elevates protein synthesis. We eat several times a day and especially around training. To get me to buy BCAA based on research I need to see my lifestyle represented in the study.
I meant to only be answering the question about the arginine (free form effects as opposed to having the same amount in whey)

..which I guess wasn;t the main question now that I look back, haha

[Davidelmo]

Yeah my only point was that when people use this argument:
"I get plenty of BCAA/glutamine from my protein shakes and diet already"
it has flaws because of the reasons above.

Like I said - whether I believe BCAAs or glutamine supplementation is beneficial (I am doubtful) is another matter altogether!