Thoughts on HMB and arginine?

[piff]

What's the general consenus on HMB and arginine for a beginner stack? I was reading through the latest issue of Muscle & Fitness and both were suggested. When I did a search, I saw most people don't think HMB does anything but that arginine may help produce some gains. What do you guys think?

The only supplements I'm currently taking are Nitrean, a men's multi vitamin, and fish oil (http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=210#j26). What do you folks think about the fish oil I'm using? It's supposedly derived from wild caught small fish and contains 360mg EPA and 240mg DHA per 1000mg capsule and suggests taking two a day. Does that sound like a sufficient amount of EPA / DHA and a sufficient dosage? Thanks for any help

[piff]

bump

[Holto]

IMO HMB and Arginine are useless.


The only supplements I'm currently taking are Nitrean, a men's multi vitamin, and fish oil (http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=210#j26).

Your supplement list looks great.

Here is an article by one of our resident experts:


Omega 3, fish oil, flax oil

By: Built AKA MariAnne
Built wrote this up in Issue 1 (http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=272) of Get Built:

Omega 3 fatty acids have been show to:

1) Reduce inflammation from arthritis
2) Promote heart health
3) Spare LBM while cutting
4) Help mental focus and alertness
5) Help lipid (fat) profiles
6) Help with insulin

I'm sure there are a gazillion other smaller ones but for now this will do.

Fish oil and flax oil are two popular sources of Omega-3 supplementation.

* Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), the form found in flax oil, must be converted into a form usable by the body: eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), which can then be converted to docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).

*Conversion of ALA to EPH DHA depends on an enzyme – delta-6 desaturase

*The conversion rate sucks, and sucks worse as you age. This means at the very least, that you’ll need a lot more flax oil than fish oil to achieve the same level of supplementation.

*A standard 1000 mg fish oil capsule typically has 180 mg EPA and 120 mg DHA per capsule – 300mg of combined EPA/DHA per capsule.

*You’d need to consume between 5g (a teaspoon) and 158g (2/3 of a cup!) of flax oil to obtain the EPA of a single 1g fish oil capsule.

(Furthermore, there is some evidence that ALA may be problematic to prostate health. There is also some evidence that refutes this claim. You’ll have to do your own reading on this one. )

How much to take:
3g of combined EPA/DHA a day has been clinically shown to safely improve the symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis, and doses of 3g – 9g of 60% concentrated fish oil (I’m assuming the authors meant this contained 5.4g of Omega-3) have been shown to increase resting metabolic rate (note that higher doses resulted in higher rates of increase).

10g of fish oil (two teaspoons) will provide 3g of combined EPA/DHA with only 90 calories.

Contrast this with between 50g (442 calories) and 158g (1,397 calories) of flax oil , depending on how much faith you have in the conversion-rate from the precursor form, ALA.

So, what built is trying to say is that fish oil is superior to flaxseed oil in many ways. Fish oil is also extremely cheap and combined with all its health benefits make it a great core supplement for anyone to take. It’s very simple, just go down to pretty much any store with a vitamin section and they are bound to have fish oil tablets on the shelf.

[malkore]

agreed. HMB has only ever shown to be minutely helpful, and only in complete newb trainees. not cost effective enough to bother with.

arginine is great if you want a false pump in the muscle...a cosmetic pump. while at it, use a Sharpie to draw a 6-pack on your stomach :)

[piff]

Here is an article by one of our resident experts:


So according to Built, it would be more advantageous for me to take 5 capsules a day to get that 3g of combined EPA/DHA? Any idea on how to break up the doses (ie: 3 at breakfast, 2 at dinner)?

[Slim Schaedle]

if you want a false pump in the muscle...a cosmetic pump. while at it
I know what you are getting at, but what is a "false pump" and a "cosmetic pump"

[Andre3000]

i know you know what he's getting at, there's really no such thing as a false pump, but cosmetic makes sense, being just for looks. oh wait, what's bodybuilding for again?

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Bodybuilding is a celebration of the human form. Showing off what the magnificent human body is capable of in all it's glory and gracefulness. At least it used to be that way. Now it just seems like it's about politics and who's the biggest freak on stage. Aesthetics seems to have gone out the door.

[malkore]

I know what you are getting at, but what is a "false pump" and a "cosmetic pump"

well, to me, a 'true pump' is the one created by using muscles to move heavy stuff, forcing blood to engorge the muscle.

I've tried a few samples of NO2 products, as well as straight l-arginine. they give you a pumped up feel, but its no where near the same...not as intense, not as large, and you don't 'feel' it the same way at all.

people think that the fake pump is doing something beneficial..but no science has proved that. maybe they will, probably they won't.

but because you can 'feel it' people think it works.

[Slim Schaedle]

well, to me, a 'true pump' is the one created by using muscles to move heavy stuff, forcing blood to engorge the muscle.

I've tried a few samples of NO2 products, as well as straight l-arginine. they give you a pumped up feel, but its no where near the same...not as intense, not as large, and you don't 'feel' it the same way at all.

people think that the fake pump is doing something beneficial..but no science has proved that. maybe they will, probably they won't.

but because you can 'feel it' people think it works.
A pump is caused by the need to move deoxygenated blood back to the heart and lungs through the veins.

There are numerous reasons this may be needed, not simply lifting weight, or taking a substance that helps produce a gas that relaxes the tunica media of the arteries.

I am not sure I would ever call anything a fake pump.

I know what you mean though.

[Andre3000]

Bodybuilding is a celebration of the human form. Showing off what the magnificent human body is capable of in all it's glory and gracefulness. At least it used to be that way. Now it just seems like it's about politics and who's the biggest freak on stage. Aesthetics seems to have gone out the door.

I know dawg, it was a rhetorical question.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

I know what it was.

[Andre3000]

Okay, i thought you legitamtely were answering the question, which you did, so i didn't know if you knew.

[cakedonkey]

HMB is a by-product/derivative of L-leucine, and people only see results with extremely high dosages; it can get extremely expensive for the kind of results it can give (though it does work). So, logically, since HMB is a by-product/derivative of L-leucine, you'd be much better off supplementing L-leucine itself. A little "food for thought":


Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.

* Koopman R,
* Wagenmakers AJ,
* Manders RJ,
* Zorenc AH,
* Senden JM,
* Gorselink M,
* Keizer HA,
* van Loon LJ.

Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. R.Koopman@HB.unimaas.nl

The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 +/- 19% and +77 +/- 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 +/- 0.006 vs. 0.061 +/- 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only.

PMID: 15562251 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

So eating protein with carbs optimizes a whole body protein balance compared to carbs alone...

[cakedonkey]

And SIGNIFICANTLY higher plasma insulin reponse when additional free-form leucine was added. Did you see this:

Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials
+240 +/- 19% and +77 +/- 11%, respectively

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

You shouldn't overdo it though because too much of one amino acid can disrupt the absorption of others. In the end, it still gets absorbed, however.

[cakedonkey]

Do you not agree, however, that L-leucine has plenty of merit according to that literature?

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Not particularly. I still prefer amino acids in their naturally occurring ratios in meats and such.

[Holto]

Do you not agree, however, that L-leucine has plenty of merit according to that literature?

Which group gained more LBM?

[cakedonkey]

Which group gained more LBM?

That's NOT what the study was about. It was clearly about which mixture increased POST-EXERCISE MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS, and it was the CHO+PRO+LEU which did this. Logically, and theoretically speaking, if protein synthesis rates are higher post-workout, you're going to be gaining more LBM than if they were lower. So I would certainly be inclined to say the group that leucine-augmented group would be gaining more LBM over time.

[Holto]

That's NOT what the study was about. It was clearly about which mixture increased POST-EXERCISE MUSCLE PROTEIN SYNTHESIS, and it was the CHO+PRO+LEU which did this. Logically, and theoretically speaking, if protein synthesis rates are higher post-workout, you're going to be gaining more LBM than if they were lower. So I would certainly be inclined to say the group that leucine-augmented group would be gaining more LBM over time.

So you don't know or the study didn't test for it?

My point is that you could have a huge spike in protein synthesis after a workout and not gain more LBM than the control group over a period of days or weeks.

So you are spending your money for nothing.

[Davidelmo]

My point is that you could have a huge spike in protein synthesis after a workout and not gain more LBM than the control group over a period of days or weeks.

Logically, wouldn't that only be the case if the rate fell for the rest of the time.

If the base rate of synthesis was the same in both groups, but one group had an increased rate at some point in the day, then logically that group should gain more LBM over a period of time.

As for the amount of LBM and the period of time - I have no idea.

[Holto]

Logically, wouldn't that only be the case if the rate fell for the rest of the time.

This is exactly what I'm theorizing.

That and if one group actually netted more LBM then you can bet they would have that at the beginning of their conclusion.

[Davidelmo]

Gotcha! Well the article doesn't seem to say.. maybe it wasn't long-term enough to see any significant difference in LBM between groups. Plus, there are a ton of variables to take into account before you can say that any supplement causes an increase in LBM compared to not taking it.

[Holto]

Plus, there are a ton of variables to take into account before you can say that any supplement causes an increase in LBM compared to not taking it.

That is why you use groups of people. It accounts for the guy who has crazy genetics or the guy thats bored and is mailing in his workouts.

Even if they used groups of 25 could you imagine:

BCAA-25
BCAA+Whey-25
Whey-25
Control-25

If any group gained more LBM that the whey group I would open my wallet.

The funding is there to do such a study.

[Built]

In answer to the fish oil question, I take 10g daily, a couple at a time, trickled in with meals.

[Davidelmo]

That is why you use groups of people. It accounts for the guy who has crazy genetics or the guy thats bored and is mailing in his workouts.

Even if they used groups of 25 could you imagine:

BCAA-25
BCAA+Whey-25
Whey-25
Control-25

If any group gained more LBM that the whey group I would open my wallet.

The funding is there to do such a study.

True, but even then the companies twist so many studies anyway. I'm sure than 90% of the supplement industry is based on the marketing and about 10% on the actual science and evidence. For instance I've never seen evidence that anything above 0.8g/lb protein is beneficial - yet 1g/lb is seen as the bare minimum by most.

That study would be interesting but i'm sure it will never happen.