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View Full Version : Crossfit superior to WBB1 for gains in a natty BB?



jdeity
09-19-2006, 12:20 PM
Normally when I read something like what will follow, I would disregard it. However, I see a lot of very knowledgable people here who seem to strongly support crossfit, so that gives credibility to them in my eyes.

I read this from their website:
Will I/can I get big doing CrossFit?
If you train the WODs hard, and eat right and get lots of sleep, you will definitely gain lean mass, lose fat, and yes, you can build muscle mass with the crossfit protocol. More specifically, according to Coach,
Here is a hierarchy of training for mass from greater to lesser efficacy:
1. Bodybuilding on steroids
2. CrossFitting on steroids
3. CrossFitting without steroids
4. Bodybuilding without steroids
The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy.
The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens.
The CrossFit protocol is designed to elicit a substantial neuroendocrine whollop and hence packs an anabolic punch that puts on impressive amounts of muscle though that is not our concern. Strength is.
Natural bodybuilders (the natural ones that are not on steroids) never approach the mass that our ahtletes do. They don't come close.
Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training.

This seems to kind of fly in the face of what I've always accepted. WBB1 worked very well for me, and seems to be a much more standard BB approach, while crossfit seems to just be more geared towards athletics than bodybuilding. Just wondering what people think of that quote.

Anthony
09-19-2006, 12:44 PM
That's one of the most debated statements made by Greg. To be honest, I don't think there's enough data in either direction to be that bold.

Will WBB1 make you big? Sure, if you eat enough.

Will Crossfit make you big? Again, of course, if you eat enough.

Any training program can make you big if there's progressive overload and your diet supports growth.

jdeity
09-19-2006, 12:47 PM
I mean, on the one hand it makes sense to me. If you're doing that kind of thing, you're increasing cardio, which should be helping you lift harder, and you're experiencing more active recovery.

But, on the flipside, you're burning off way more calories, and are not keeping your work honed in the range where we expect maximum hypertrophy (crossfit will switch between max effort stuff and cardio...)

Sensei
09-19-2006, 12:53 PM
Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training.
He means function=performance and form=physique, right? I would generally agree with that. The rest, I don't know...

jdeity
09-19-2006, 01:02 PM
Yes that's what he means, I believe. So you'd favor putting someone on a crossfit routine over WBB1?

MixmasterNash
09-19-2006, 01:15 PM
Yes that's what he means, I believe. So you'd favor putting someone on a crossfit routine over WBB1?
There are many other considerations.

jdeity
09-19-2006, 01:24 PM
Care to elaborate?

MixmasterNash
09-19-2006, 01:34 PM
Who is the trainee? What are their goals? What are their other activities?

The prescription for a skinny 16 year football player who wants to gain weight during the season will be significantly different from a fat 40 year old who wants to look hot for his stripper 3rd wife.

jdeity
09-19-2006, 04:16 PM
You make a distinction between a skinny kid and a fat adult, but I thought this was purely about mass gains? More specifically, given a 20-35 year old natty bodybuilder looking to gain muscle mass. Crossfit or WBB1? Or more considerations still needed? If so, what?

Unreal
09-19-2006, 08:43 PM
Athlete or body builder. I think a strict body builder should stick to a body building routine, while someone who is interested in GPP or overall atheletic performance can do great with crossfit.

Meat_Head
09-20-2006, 06:10 AM
Athlete or body builder. I think a strict body builder should stick to a body building routine, while someone who is interested in GPP or overall atheletic performance can do great with crossfit.

:withstupi



"The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy. The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens."

What a bunch of bull****. What exactly is "the bodybuilding model"? I've seen hundreds of bodybuilding routines that provide(and/or have provided) significant hypertrophy. Would this person really suggest that thousands of people using bodybuilding routines(that covers quite a few 'protocols') including a huge chunk of the people on wbb are seeing 'little happen' in terms of results?

Anthony
09-20-2006, 09:05 AM
The bodybuilding model he's talking about is the body part split. And he's right. It's not that great for natural trainers. Which is why all the old school guys did full body routines. Which is why every reputable coach is telling people to stop listening to the glossy mags and train your body like a unit.

Can you make progress with a body part split? Of course, plenty of people do it.

Could they have made BETTER progress with a full body routine? Absolutely.

And I think that's what he's trying to say ... he's just being a little more dramatic than most (bodybuilders) care for.

Sensei
09-20-2006, 12:32 PM
:withstupi
"The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy. The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens."

What a bunch of bull****. What exactly is "the bodybuilding model"? I've seen hundreds of bodybuilding routines that provide(and/or have provided) significant hypertrophy. Would this person really suggest that thousands of people using bodybuilding routines(that covers quite a few 'protocols') including a huge chunk of the people on wbb are seeing 'little happen' in terms of results?
I think his main point is this and I agree with this 100%


Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training.
How many people do you know that train like gangbusters for a month, constantly looking at themselves in the mirror desperately searching for some kind of visual validation that what they are doing is working, only to quit a month or two later? Many of these people would be much better off (and probably more motivated and less likely to quit) if they understood clearly that an increase in strength WILL lead to improved appearance and were more concerned with adding reps and weight to the bar.

Meat_Head
09-20-2006, 08:03 PM
The bodybuilding model he's talking about is the body part split. And he's right. It's not that great for natural trainers. Which is why all the old school guys did full body routines. Which is why every reputable coach is telling people to stop listening to the glossy mags and train your body like a unit.

Can you make progress with a body part split? Of course, plenty of people do it.

Could they have made BETTER progress with a full body routine? Absolutely.

And I think that's what he's trying to say ... he's just being a little more dramatic than most (bodybuilders) care for.


In that case, I'd agree. I don't know if its so easy to split things up into 'bodypart training' and 'full body training' though. There is no single 'bodybuilding protocol', bodybuilding routines cover a diverse variety of techniques including full body workouts. Check out this example of the classic push/pull/legs split:

Monday - Dips 4x6, push presses 5x3
Tuesday - Rest
Wednesday - Pullups 4x6, power cleans/high pulls 5x3
Thursday - Rest
Friday - Squats 5x5, SLDLs 3x8

It might not be the most commonly used bodybuilding routine, but when you analyze it every day you are in the gym is a 'full body day' with ground based exercises that certainly train many facets of physical performance and conditioning in addition to inducing gains in muscle mass.


I think his main point is this and I agree with this 100%

How many people do you know that train like gangbusters for a month, constantly looking at themselves in the mirror desperately searching for some kind of visual validation that what they are doing is working, only to quit a month or two later? Many of these people would be much better off (and probably more motivated and less likely to quit) if they understood clearly that an increase in strength WILL lead to improved appearance and were more concerned with adding reps and weight to the bar.

I completely agree with that, but that is a matter of ignorance of the cause of gains in muscle mass and how it happens in the first place. I'd guess that plenty of people who have tried Crossfit have been unhappy with their results after a month or two as well, simply because making big changes in your body's appearance takes time and consistency and people who don't understand these things expect radical unrealistic changes in a matter of months.

Don't take that as a knock on Crossfit, I think its an amazing system that more people should be using. I'll adhere to my philosophy that more variety is better, that this argument is fairly assinine either way as bodybuilding/weightlifting protocols + crossfit is superior to both goals(IMO).

Anthony
09-21-2006, 06:13 AM
I'd guess that plenty of people who have tried Crossfit have been unhappy with their results after a month or two

I know a few people who have tried Crossfit and quit. These are the same people who try a new routine every few months and quit. Or try a new diet and quit. No dedication, no commitment, no desire, no focus. And until that changes, it won't matter what they try. They'll continue their routine of "try something for a month, make an excuse to quit, wallow in self pity, etc."

Having said that, most people who try it either stick with it 100% or incorporate important aspects into their current routine. Talk to any affiliate who has experience with typical big box gym and a Crossfit gym and they'll tell you the retention rate for Crossfit is unbelievable. I think part of the reason is because Crossfit attracts the type of person who thrives on challenge, hard work, competition, comraderie, etc. So when they find like-minded individuals, it's easy for them to stick around. Not to mention the results!

PS - add some deadlifts to wednesday and I like that routine. :)

JoeG
09-21-2006, 06:26 AM
I do a four day PL split and I also try to fit in two days of CF as well. Since I added the CF I feel better for some reason even though I get less "rest".

At least in my experience the PL/CF combo just feels right.

Isaac Wilkins
09-21-2006, 09:37 AM
To say I do a PL/CF combo might be a stretch, but I have a strong powerlifting/athletic base with my off workouts being athletic in nature.

If one is purely interested in hypertrophy in the short term (three months to two years, perhaps) then I would suggest that WBB#1 or a variation is probably going to be the way to go assuming they're already a somewhat trained individual but not a long-term trainer.

For the very long term probably a CF-ish approach with consistant improvement and heavy eating and a little less of the SS work and more work in the hypertrophy ranges would promote long-term growth. The reason for this is that a lot of natural pure bodybuilders tend to become so unathletic that they either hurt themselves or can't move their way out of a paper bag. CF with the adaptations I mentioned enables them to continue to improve the little things that will enable them to train harder, longer, and with more variation. By training multiple energy systems I would hypothesize that they'd enjoy better nutrient partitioning and hormone modulation as well.

That being said I feel that there are more appropriate approaches for both. I am a huge fan of the WBB#1 routine but remember what it is for: It's a starter. It's not designed to be a permanent routine.

djreef
09-21-2006, 11:24 AM
So when they find like-minded individuals, it's easy for them to stick around. Not to mention the results!

Plus, the people are much nicer to look at than the folks in your 'average' workout facility.

DJ