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toki
09-26-2006, 12:19 AM
I was watching a video if wanderlei silva training a couple weeks ago and saw him doing both controlled punches, and controlled kneeing movements with his hand/foot respectively in a grip on a cable machine (like you would do "cable press downs" on.)

I gave them a try today and it seemed like a good workout, could feel it throughout my back from slight twisting action but it was killing my medial delt also.

Anyone else do these to good/bad/no results? Not neccisarily for a stronger punch, but also as a general muscle builder?

I did a search for cable punches and couldn't find anything relating, sorry if this one has already been covered.

MixmasterNash
09-26-2006, 09:55 AM
From what I've read, it's more useful to do slow, controlled punching/rotational movements for the supporting musculature, and it's somewhat disadvantageous to do fast sport specific movements with significant extra weight. Perhaps a bit counterintuitive. I'd like to hear other opinions.

Another really good stability builder for the shoulders in the horizontal punching plane is to do ring pushups.

Hazerboy
09-26-2006, 08:52 PM
Yeah I agree with mixmaster; from what I've seen its better to do weighted movements that are similiar to your sports movement rather than ones that actually mimic them. I'm not sure of the specific reason though I believe it messes up your mechanics in some way.

toki
09-27-2006, 03:27 PM
so is the implication that doing a few sets of slow punches with weight attatched to my hand is going to undo years and years of established punching form?

Patz
09-27-2006, 03:34 PM
i would think it would mess with your teechnique to do cable punches..

but, i'm not a fighter..just a luva

Bruteman
09-27-2006, 09:09 PM
so is the implication that doing a few sets of slow punches with weight attatched to my hand is going to undo years and years of established punching form?
Yes it will. Unfortunately it's a lot easier to learn bad habits than it is to learn proper technique. If you're looking for more resistance try shadow boxing with 16oz gloves on. Another thing is when you hit the heavy bag use the weighted gloves(I think most of them go up to 2lbs per glove), but as soon as you feel yourself starting to "muscle" the punch, instead of throwing the punch, stop. When training you want nothing to do with muscling punches.

Maki Riddington
09-27-2006, 09:58 PM
If anything, you'd want to implement them so you can work on your speed. But not to overload the arms so much that you end up muscling the cables.

I perform band punches for Judo. It increases my speed in which I can latch on to someone or when I shoot in and grab the ankles or hips.

I've noticed a difference in that I can get a better grip first which means my chances of getting the first throw in are greater.

1mmort4l
09-27-2006, 10:55 PM
The reason Vanderlei was doing those in the vid you saw is because hes likely just trying to mix his workouts up. I can almost gaurantee that he wouldnt do weighted punches regularly. I think doing them ocassionally would be great for an intense workout, provided the weight is not excessive.
I watched, probably the same vid your talking about, and he also does some punches while laying on his back holding decent size dumbells.. I would have thought the weight he was using was a bit much, but those Brazilians know how to train, so i wont comment! It could have been just for the cameras aswell, so i wouldnt kill myself trying to copy everything you see.
I do slightly weighted cable punches occasionally, but i concentrate on the explosiveness of the punch to try and build that..

toki
09-28-2006, 03:03 PM
Thanks for the input guys.

I guess I will limit my use of this to some infrequent speed work. I havn't been in any type of training for about 2 years now, so I was just looking for some martial arts related excersize to do while I'm at the gym so I don't completely fall off.

Dinosaur
09-28-2006, 06:59 PM
It's all about your nervous system. By punching with weights, you'll actually only get better at punching with weights and it can actually hinder performace. The poundage should be miniscule at best, that's why you can punch with 16oz gloves then fight with 8-10oz and have no serious problems.

Hazerboy
09-28-2006, 09:28 PM
This is all some great info.

However if you're looking for a "general muscle builder" for bunching, do a weighted movement has similiar mechanics to punching, a.k.a bailing hay or some sort of trunk twist, or really any explosive full body movement. (clean and jerk?)

russianwol
09-29-2006, 08:50 AM
I think that people that are suggesting doing a core workout instead have the right idea. But they are somewhat misinformed probably because they do not train for the specific MMA or boxing sports.

One of the guys that have a regular column in the Ultimate Grappling Magazine - Rhadi Ferguson and JC Santana together with Jeff Monson and other fighters have demonstrated that rotational punches under resistance in fact increase the power of the raw punch.

Bands, I would also imagine, are a great tool to improve the explosiveness of the punches.

ElPietro
09-29-2006, 10:44 AM
My opinion on this, is that there isn't a "punch muscle." So you can't train it.

You can practice your punching technique, AND train the muscles involved in the punch. Doing them seperately to me would be far more optimal.

If you practice punching technique, you will have good punching technique. If you get stronger, you will be stronger, and that strength will carry over when you practice your punching. To me it's fairly simple.

To me punching with resistance of any kind other than slight added resistance is asking for tendon or ligament wear and tear. I think Maki's method with the bands may be the only safe way to do it, since it is isometric, and will not be so bad on your joints and connective tissue.

Dinosaur
09-29-2006, 03:03 PM
Using bands can be beneficial, but it's not their main emphasis of their routine. By using actual weights, it's only going to slow you down. Rhadi Ferguson is a Judoka btw, I don't think he does much punching...

Maki Riddington
10-04-2006, 03:50 PM
Using bands can be beneficial, but it's not their main emphasis of their routine. By using actual weights, it's only going to slow you down. Rhadi Ferguson is a Judoka btw, I don't think he does much punching...

Rahdi is a Judoka and has his black belt in BJJ.

Rhadi and JC are a pretty damn good team when it comes to the conditioning and training of MMA/martial artists. I have a number of their books and DVDs and all of the stuff I have incorperated has allowed me to make leaps and bounds in my training.

The use of bands for the purpose of increasing punching power isn't the best idea, what it can do is increase the speed in which your hands move at. Add a rotational and squatting/lunging component to the movement and you end up with a series of exercises that will make you a strong player in any martial art.

If you want to increase specific movements like punching while in the guard for MMA, try doing dips at various speeds, resistance (bands/weights), reps and lengths of time.

Dinosaur
10-04-2006, 04:43 PM
I personally don't like bands myself either. One of the posters above though said that Rhadi used a lot of cable punches, which didn't make sense to me as being as he's a grappler, he wouldn't need to. I've seen some bands used by the Brazilian for their Kyokushin fighters, but I'm not a big fan of them. If you want to hit harder, work the heavy bag and perfect your technique is my opinion.

Maki Riddington
10-04-2006, 04:49 PM
One thing I have noticed is that many martial artists don't have clue what to do when it comes to training their body to become stronger, faster and more explosive.

Dinosaur
10-04-2006, 05:16 PM
I personally think a nice mix of Olympic weightlifting, plyometrics, flexibility training, and sport-specific skills training is the best mix. Toss in some fun exercises like full contact twists, sled dragging, and farmer's walks to keep it interesting and you've got all you'll need.

brentb
05-13-2010, 05:04 PM
when you can use this
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NickAus
05-13-2010, 09:38 PM
No I would not do cable punches!

It will ruin your punching technique and you will actually loose power in your punches.

I stand by this 100%.

Astreocclu
05-14-2010, 10:43 AM
I dont know about losing speed/power, as ive never done them. But what i can say is that jumping and hip exercises have actually helped my punching pretty good. As for arm specific movements, medicine ball throws, plyo push ups, and "tire battles" (got hat one from defranco) are all pretty good.

brentb
05-15-2010, 12:42 AM
I dont think i would ruin your power or speed it just would not increase it. That is the catch with any positive negative resistance (concnetric/eccentric) is that you never can truly develop explosive power due to the fact that your brain is telling you to decelerate when you are pressing 70% of your 1RPM to protect you. Because your brain knows that the par is leaving your hands. Not with this 360.

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