Digestive enzymes and HCl supplementation

[Davidelmo]

Are they worth supplementing?

I quite often feel bloated and/or slightly constipated - especially after eating a huge meal or chugging a 1000kcal shake with oats and peanut butter.

There have been times when I've eaten a bag of nuts and some have come out whole!

There was this t-nation article about HCl supplementation. I'm not sure whether I believe supplementing will give me a 10lb increase in weight but it did spike my curiosity:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1257805

[darkdan]

I'll give it a try.

Heck, I have all kinds of bowel problems and fiber tablets three times a day isn't helping.

[Davidelmo]

Yeah.. i hope this isn't too much info but I just came back from the bog and my poo was a tiny little piece that I really struggled to get out.

Any suggestions? I do eat fruit and veg.. maybe I need more?

[russianwol]

Veggies, lots of them... Keeps the digestive tract alcaline.

Also, you could try this tea called "Smooth Move" by Traditional Medicinals. It's a very mild laxative - works awesome though. Drink one cup before going to bed for 2 days. On the 3rd morning prepare to spend some time in the "office" :)

Oh and chew your food too :) Help the stomach a lot. Food is not absorbed in the stomach - but rather broken down to pass to the small intestine.

[malkore]

the fiber tablets I've seen are like, 2g of fiber per dose. not much extra to supplement 6g a day. a teaspoon of that new Fiber Sure inulin based fiber supplement has 5g of fiber, plus it mixes in to anything, including baked goods.

the only digestive enzyme I tried was papaya extract. didn't notice much, but my primary problem at the time was 2 MRP's and 2 protein shakes a day. once I quit so much damn liquid food, my issues cleared up in a couple days.

[Holto]

Psyllium Husks

Probiotics

Betaine HCL (or Apple Cider Vinegar tablets)

In that order by importance.

How is your water intake?

BTW I classify this as a very serious health problem.

[Davidelmo]

Psyllium Husks

Probiotics

Betaine HCL (or Apple Cider Vinegar tablets)

In that order by importance.

How is your water intake?

BTW I classify this as a very serious health problem.

Water intake is pretty good. My girlfriend has some probiotic yoghurts so I'll have one of those now. I'll look into the other things - thanks for the suggestions.

[darkdan]

I tried some HCl yesterday. I got a warm sensation with only one tab.

[Holto]

I should have added that you need to clear the blockages before you hit the psyllium. Perhaps even a colon cleanse is in order.

This is a whole cleanse kit:

http://www.renewlife.com/flowmeter.cfm?meter=360

The product sheet on the right is the colon cleanse and you can just buy it seperately. You could take it for 2-3 days and be good to go.

Or you could get some vitamin c crystals and do a vitamin c flush.

Then there are these little guys:

http://lisalynnfitness.com/prodspics/bowel_buddy.jpg

PM on this if you need to because like I said it's a very serious issue.

This condition can be brought on by really intense and stressfull settigs like being a med student.

[Davidelmo]

Thanks for your help Holto. Went to my local store today but the things you listed were REALLY expensive. I'm going to have a look on the net now and find them cheaper.

Will these products help me digest my food better or do they simply clean me out and keep things moving along? Like I said, I do chew my food but I sometimes still find pieces of food in my poop.

[Holto]

To clear blockages:
Acidophilus ($10-$30/bottle) (some cheap stuff should do the trick, finish off with a multi-species product)
Bowel Buddy ($8-$10/bag these taste like gingerbread men)
Colon Cleanse ($10-$20/bottle)

To improve digestion:
Betaine HCL (this is actually expensive)
Apple Cider Vinegar ($10/bottle)


The psyllium is really a great thing. I use it every night, two teaspoons. The problem is that you can't use it when you are blocked up. It's actually a pretty bad idea and I'm glad I caught it before you bought some.

Right now you need to clear blockages but the possible danger here is producing what I call a missile. All this impacted waste that is now dense and hard finally gets dislodged and wham, you now have a fissure. So this is where a colon cleanse comes in. Even if your Dr prescribes some magnesium hydroxide. Another method is to kick back and relax. Eat two bowel buddies and have a liter of water. I think this is the safest and most natural method.

Once you get up and running you need to dedicate time to your meals. I imagine you are living with a textbook in one hand. I understand that and that might be a necessary thing. What I recommed is when you take your last bite of food take 5 minutes and just relax. Do something idle that you enjoy. Jump on wbb or play a game or two of solitaire.

The reason I stress this relaxation thing is because I have a pretty good idea of what you know about nutrition and this digestive disturbance shouldn't be happening based on your current diet.

I had a manager at GNC that believes everyone who uses protein powder should supplement with fiber.

[Holto]

Acidophilus $8 bucks a bottle (result of 33% sale)

Betaine HCL $6.00

http://www.vitaminlife.com/category-exec/category_id/357/brandid/539/CNAME/Acidophilus

Solaray Colon cleanse $6

http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-exec/PNAME/TotalCleanse_Colon/product_id/40669

[Davidelmo]

Thanks very very much. I'm from the UK but I've found those products for decent prices - I'll order them now. Cheers very much!

p.s. i like the term "missile" :D

[Holto]

p.s. i like the term "missile" :D

Fear the missile.

[TheGimp]

Thanks very very much. I'm from the UK but I've found those products for decent prices

As another UKer interested in this topic, where did you find them?

[Davidelmo]

As another UKer interested in this topic, where did you find them?

Ebay, lol. Only ones I can't find are the American brands - colon cleanse and bowel buddy. I'm looking for alternate products now.

[TheGimp]

Ah ok.

I noticed the UK GNC website has Betaine HCl.

[PoutineEh]

i have some twin lab super digestive enzymes. the definitely help with gas problems if i eat too much. but if i take one a day, it burns the hell out of my ***** so i usually try to take one every few days or so. probably not the solution you are looking for

[Holto]

There is a concern in the holistic health community that one should only take HCL if you think you need it. The fear being that it will negatively impact your current HCL production.

HCL does it's work in the small intestine. If you want to improve colon function focus on the fiber and probiotics. Generally speaking if you are looking to improve digestion and elimination you should start with the colon.

[Holto]

i have some twin lab super digestive enzymes. the definitely help with gas problems if i eat too much. but if i take one a day, it burns the hell out of my ***** so i usually try to take one every few days or so. probably not the solution you are looking for

I think this indicates a disruption. Try an enzyme formula without the HCL.

One of the keys to symptomless digestion is to balance HCL with Bicarbonate. The body releases the bicorbonate in concert with the HCL it releases. The bicarbonate is a base that neutralizes the acid. If you add HCL in the mix I'm not sure if any feedback loop or mechanism exists that would allow the body to account for that.

[Davidelmo]

Certainly if you supplement with HCl when you don't need it, your body will reduce production and release:

This is the mechanism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastrin

However, my understanding is that if you have low HCl production, supplementing will help by re-establishing the correct environment and then your body will start to produce it again. I'm not sure if that is right but it's my best guess, sorry.

[Holto]

^ thanks


Supplementing will help by re-establishing the correct environment and then your body will start to produce it again. I'm not sure if that is right but it's my best guess, sorry.

This is what happens with the people that are willing to change/improve thier diet or lifestyle.

[darkdan]

After using HCl for just my large dinners I can say so far things are going smoothly.

I think I'll use it for a week and then lay off of it and compare. Originally, I thought it did nothing, but after a few days it seems to be helping.

Gas is down. Bloating is down. And, no "urgent" bowel movements. I've gotten plenty of warning.

[Holto]

You can save it for the big/heavy meals also.

[Roddy]

Holto i just wanted to point out i'm on HCL and its not actually expensive. I got a months supply for $8.99

Also for a good bowel cleanse thats cheap you could down the prune juice!

also try consuming some vital greens, MSM greens etc... its a greats source of probiotics, should help with your stomach and bowel function. (not the cheapest i pay about $20 for a months supply)

[Holto]

Holto i just wanted to point out i'm on HCL and its not actually expensive. I got a months supply for $8.99

What I was getting at is using for the heavy meals only so you don't develop a dependency. Not that we are even sure that it can happen but playing it safe.

[Roddy]

^^^ agreed i only use it with supper.

[anth15]

If you dont use enzymes your really missing out. Any food you cook all enzymes are depleted. So now instead of having digestive enzymes to digest our food we use our bodys metabolic enzymes which isnt good. Thats why when u eat a heavy meal you wil usually feel tired after because your body is working so hard to digest the food instead of digestive enzymes that are lost when we cook our food. Supplements with enzymes isthe besat thing to do for your body if your an athlete or a bodybuilder. There are several studies on the net about enzymes and athletes. It boosts their performance and reduces recovery time. If there was one supplement i had to choose over anything on the market it would be a good enzyme product. For you people out there who do not know much about enzymes i suggest you research it and try it out for your self. Educated enzyme researchers say its the supplement of the future and everyone will be using it. Im ahead of the game because i already use it.

[RedSpikeyThing]

If you dont use enzymes your really missing out. Any food you cook all enzymes are depleted. So now instead of having digestive enzymes to digest our food we use our bodys metabolic enzymes which isnt good. Thats why when u eat a heavy meal you wil usually feel tired after because your body is working so hard to digest the food instead of digestive enzymes that are lost when we cook our food. Supplements with enzymes isthe besat thing to do for your body if your an athlete or a bodybuilder. There are several studies on the net about enzymes and athletes. It boosts their performance and reduces recovery time. If there was one supplement i had to choose over anything on the market it would be a good enzyme product. For you people out there who do not know much about enzymes i suggest you research it and try it out for your self. Educated enzyme researchers say its the supplement of the future and everyone will be using it. Im ahead of the game because i already use it.

Could you provide a link to these studies please?

[anth15]

Ya heres one http://www.enzymestuff.com/conditionsports.htm

Ill look around tommorro for some other ones when i have time.

[Holto]

The more enzymes you take the less you make.

I don't notice benefits from the use of them at all.

[anth15]

ok your loss

[RedSpikeyThing]

Ya heres one http://www.enzymestuff.com/conditionsports.htm

Ill look around tommorro for some other ones when i have time.

Although it is an interesting read and raises some good points, that particular article lacks credibility. It makes claims such as "studies show...", but fails to reference the study. Actually, I lied - it references one article, which is from 1932. Not exactly up to date.

I do, however, agree that HCL and digestive enzymes may become more mainstream in the future.

Holto: That makes sense, although I read that supplementing with HCL coaxes your body into producing the required amount of HCL. That is, you need to supplement less after using HCL for a while. Are enzymes different? And/or is that claim about HCL just plain wrong?

[Roddy]

from what i have gathered and researched, after using digestive enzymes like HCL for about 2 months, your body will get used to making more of its own digestive enzymes and you can gradually stop taking the supplementary digestive enzymes.

I have been taking these for something like 2 weeks... and i notice nothing.

[Davidelmo]

HCl isn't an enzyme. And yes, supplementing HCl when your production is good will cause you to stop producing your own.

However, if your HCl is low and you supplement it, your body will start producing it again once the correct environment is established.

[Holto]

In general I feel that a healthy person should never need a digestive aid.

If we supp with anything it should be fiber and probiotics. Sort of like a take care of the large intestine and the small intestine takes care of itself.

Taking enzymes will reduce your bodies own production and much like creatine this is not a problem because our production will return to normal. My take is that I want to get my body in a state where I produce all the digestive elements in sufficient quantities.

[Davidelmo]

I agree ^

By the way, thanks for the suggestions. I couldn't get the Colon Cleanse or Bowel buddy but I found a similar product. I also got the psyllium husks and acidophilus probiotics. I won't be too graphic but things are *moving* a lot better than they were before. Thanks a lot Holto!

[anth15]

In general I feel that a healthy person should never need a digestive aid.

If we supp with anything it should be fiber and probiotics. Sort of like a take care of the large intestine and the small intestine takes care of itself.

Taking enzymes will reduce your bodies own production and much like creatine this is not a problem because our production will return to normal. My take is that I want to get my body in a state where I produce all the digestive elements in sufficient quantities.

I feel that anything we cook needs a digestive aid. Since there are no enzymes in food that is cooked our body resorts to metabolic enzymes. If you ever have smelly gas then you need enzymes plain and simple. If you dont s hit atleast twice a day you need enzymes. If your not noticeing any benefits form digestive enzymes you have a cheap brand, or you need to up the dose. Enzymedica enzymes are the best on the market. Ive tried alot of different ones and none compare to enzymedicas. I do not have refernece to any of this but i was givin a few audio cd's on enzymes and that is where i got this information from.

[TheGimp]

So I popped an HCl cap halfway through my meal (648mg of Betaine HCl, couldn't get anything smaller) and no burning sensation resulted. Should I be concerned?

[Holto]

If you ever have smelly gas then you need enzymes plain and simple. If you dont s hit atleast twice a day you need enzymes.

Both these situations I would refer to as serious health problems that need addressing.

Digestively speaking I am in perfect health and have been for several years.



If your not noticeing any benefits form digestive enzymes you have a cheap brand, or you need to up the dose.

Or my body produces them in sufficient quantities.

I don't know how long you have been living a healthy lifestyly but it takes many years to reach the upper end of the health continuum.

To use the word "resort" the way you did is somewhat ridiculous. Our bodies produce these enzymes for our digestion and this is their intended purpose. They have other functions because the body is very clever and efficient.

[TheGimp]

So I popped an HCl cap halfway through my meal (648mg of Betaine HCl, couldn't get anything smaller) and no burning sensation resulted. Should I be concerned?

I tried 2 caps (1.3g) with another meal and still no burning sensation.

[Holto]

I tried 2 caps (1.3g) with another meal and still no burning sensation.

I think your experiences are showing you don't need it.

[TheGimp]

I think your experiences are showing you don't need it.

I'm going by this (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1257805) article where Poliquin says:



Step 1: Have a high-protein solid meal (no shakes). Let's say for illustration purposes a 12-ounce steak and vegetables.

Step 2: Eat half the protein, roughly 6 ounces of the steak.

Step 3: Swallow a 200mg capsule of HCl.

Step 4: Eat the other half of the steak and the vegetables.

Step 5: Wait 15 minutes.

Step 6: If your stomach acid is normal, you'll feel like you just drank a hot cup of tea or feel a burn. If you feel nothing, you need HCl as a supplement.

So what do you do next? At every meal repeat steps 1 to 6, upping the dose one capsule per meal until you feel the burning sensation. So if it takes five meals to get a burning sensation, you need on average four capsules per meal. If you get to seven capsules and you have no burning, stop the test — you're achloridic, meaning you have almost no stomach acid!


Going by that I should have expected a burning sensation with 1 of my capsules let alone 2.

[Holto]

Ok. I'm awake now.

What was your particular meal?

After reading a bit about gastrin it seems that the body can react to the HCL from the supplement (as Dr.Dave pointed out). Meaning you may simply be releasing less gastrin and thus less of your own HCL. The potential problem with this is the other elements activated by the gastrin.

This blurb from wiki sums it up:

Gastrin release is inhibited by the presence of acid (primarily the secreted HCl) in the stomach (a case of negative feedback).

These are the other functions of gastrin:

Directly: binds onto CCK-B receptors on parietal cells stimulating them to secrete H+ ions.
- Indirectly: binds onto CCK-B receptors on ECL cells in the stomach, which then responds by releasing histamine, which in turn acts in a paracrine manner on parietal cells stimulating them to secrete H+ ions.
It also causes chief cells to secrete pepsinogen, the zymogen (inactive) form of the digestive enzyme pepsin. Pepsinogen is converted to pepsin in a low pH environment, and the HCl provides a suitable environment for its activity. It can also increase antral muscle mobility and trophic effect on GI tract. Gastrin has also been shown to induce production of pancreatic enzymes by acinar cells.

Digestion is tricky in that it involves many elements that must be in balance. Disrupting this sounds a little scary.

You have been living a healthy lifestyle for a long time. It could be your digestive system is air tight.

Why are you using the HCL? Do you have any symptoms?

[JoeG]

Both these situations I would refer to as serious health problems that need addressing.

Digestively speaking I am in perfect health and have been for several years.




Or my body produces them in sufficient quantities.

I don't know how long you have been living a healthy lifestyly but it takes many years to reach the upper end of the health continuum.

To use the word "resort" the way you did is somewhat ridiculous. Our bodies produce these enzymes for our digestion and this is their intended purpose. They have other functions because the body is very clever and efficient.


Is that really true? I don't come close to having BM's twice a day. Some days not even once.

[TheGimp]

I guess my main motivation for using it are the extravagant claims Poliquin makes:


Interestingly enough, in strength-trained individuals those improvements are often associated with gains of 15 to 18 pounds of lean body mass within two months! Why? They are now absorbing proteins and minerals.

I have been thinking for a while that my gains, both strength and LBM, are slow, I thought this might have something to do with it. Most likely I am just impatient and making excuses for a lack of dedication or dietary shortcomings but I figured with the low cost of HCl caps I could try it with a few meals.

As far as other symptoms, things like excessive gas, bloating and undigested food such as sweetcorn, carrots and seeds in my stools.

[Holto]

Is that really true? I don't come close to having BM's twice a day. Some days not even once.

That is a serious problem. You need to remedy that.

[Holto]

As far as other symptoms, things like excessive gas, bloating and undigested food such as sweetcorn, carrots and seeds in my stools.

Try some probiotics.

[TheGimp]

Try some probiotics.

Supps or dairy?

[Davidelmo]

Gimp, I like those little Actimel yoghurts- although they are pretty expensive. I also found some acidophilus 4bn cells per tablet in Holland and Barrett.

[TheGimp]

Gimp, I like those little Actimel yoghurts- although they are pretty expensive. I also found some acidophilus 4bn cells per tablet in Holland and Barrett.

Thanks for the tip mate, I'll pop into H&B.

[anth15]

Is that really true? I don't come close to having BM's twice a day. Some days not even once.

You should definatly take a good digestive enzyme supplement, and probiotics. Once your on both those supplements you will be going atleast twice a day and your poo will float, which means you have digested your food properly. Next time you guys have your next BM check to see if it floats. Floating is a good sign, sinking isnt.

[RedSpikeyThing]

You should definatly take a good digestive enzyme supplement, and probiotics. Once your on both those supplements you will be going atleast twice a day and your poo will float, which means you have digested your food properly. Next time you guys have your next BM check to see if it floats. Floating is a good sign, sinking isnt.

Maybe there is a better/simpler problem: fibre. Are you getting enough fibre?

[Holto]

Thanks for the tip mate, I'll pop into H&B.

It really is a remarkable supplement.

Especially if you have taken any prescription antibiotics in the last year.

[anth15]

Maybe there is a better/simpler problem: fibre. Are you getting enough fibre?

Fibre through your food, never a supplement.

[Holto]

Fibre through your food, never a supplement.

because...?

[Roddy]

Fibre through your food, never a supplement.
Verify: :scratch:

[anth15]

why would you want to put fake crap into your body that makes your BM all soft and liquidy, Its not natural. Get your fibre from fruits and veggies. Apples are really high in fiber. Its just healthier is all im saying. I also heared once a reason not to take a fibre supplement. I forget exactly what he said so im just going to get my fibre from fruits to be on the safe side.

[Holto]

why would you want to put fake crap.

I have sold many fiber supps over the years I was in the industry and I can't think of one that isn't 100% natural.

How many grams of fiber do you get per day?

[anth15]

I don't keep track.

[Holto]

I don't keep track.

It appears you are pretty new to all this.

Many fiber supplements are based on pysllium husks which are completely natural.

[anth15]

I'm not really interested in fiber supplements, i just heared that its better to get it from your food thats all.

[Holto]

I'm not really interested in fiber supplements.

I didn't think you were. I was merely trying to clear up some horrible innacuracies.