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BidChest
10-04-2006, 07:17 PM
I'm 19 and I wanna get a little bigger and cut. Right now I weigh 165.

And I want to slim down my chest. There's like a layer of fat I can't get rid of! :idea: Wanna get ripped abs too and get rid of the love handles.. :moon:

Davidelmo
10-04-2006, 07:33 PM
You'll find it hard to get bigger and more cut at the same time.

To reduce your body fat you'll need to get your diet sorted out.

Start by reading every article and sticky on this site.

BidChest
10-04-2006, 07:52 PM
Alright well scratch getting bigger just cutting down

whiteman90909
10-04-2006, 07:57 PM
Eat less.

VikingWarlord
10-04-2006, 08:03 PM
Dude...it looks like you don't have much to cut down to. Focus on putting on some quality meat first, then cut to that. Losing the fat you have would make you look like an Ethiopian.

KarateBoy
10-04-2006, 08:19 PM
So far you've gotten poor advice from this thread so I'll chime in.

To get leaner you'll need your diet in order. To get bigger you'll ALSO need your diet in order.

You're new to lifting so you'll be able to get leaner and put on muscle at the same time. The trick is meal timing.

Also remember all calories are not created equal.

Jinkies
10-04-2006, 08:51 PM
You need to start lifting.

Get to crazy and you will get burnt out. Don't worry about weight, just bench, squat, and clean.

Come back in 4 months and then you will see your goals are alot different.

Ricky Bobby
10-04-2006, 09:06 PM
You need to start lifting.

Get to crazy and you will get burnt out. Don't worry about weight, just bench, squat, and clean.

Come back in 4 months and then you will see your goals are alot different.
:withstupi

Stumprrp
10-04-2006, 09:07 PM
to the OP, personally i would start eating healthy foods high in protien at a good amount dont stress it to much as of yet and lift 2-3 times a week with basic movements to get your body used to weights, i assure you you will see results in your body in a matter of a month, then after you kick it up a notch you can decide if you want to cut or bulk, right now just start doing a healthy diet and lift.

Jinkies
10-04-2006, 09:09 PM
Reason I suggest powercleans instead of deads incase anyone wonders-
seems more effective for what his goals are, they will strengthen his whole body and the exercise will help him shed some calories and strengthen his heart because its a power movement.

Jinkies
10-04-2006, 10:09 PM
Im obease :(

KingJustin
10-04-2006, 10:22 PM
Learn how to eat right. Basically, stop eating junk food, start eating healthy carbs/lots of protein/healthy fats. Eat a lot after you workout, and eat a lot of small meals throughout the day. Do some readong on your own about this. Try to gain a little bit of weight, it will be in the form of muscle and it'll give you a good base, afterwards you'll lose the fat (you'll lose some fat if you run sprints, too)/

Here's a really simple workout so you don't have to do any more research for awhile and get confused about stuff. Trust me when I say it'll work real well for you even if not everyone else agrees.
Do a 3x a week routine that focuses on compounds and make sure to add weight to the exercises each week. You don't have to go to failure.

Example:
Every monday/wednesday/friday do these exercises. Do about 8-10 repetitions, and 2-3 sets.
Incline DB Bench
Dips
Chin-Ups
Rows
Squats
Deadlifts
Weighted Sit-Ups

Once or twice a week, if you feel up to it, run sprints (don't quite go 100%). Walk in between sprints and try not to rest too long.

there's a million different things you need to learn to optimize your physique quickly. Read a bunch of the articles on this site, elitefts.com and t-mag.com and you'll be on your way. Post your questions on the forums.

KarateBoy
10-04-2006, 10:23 PM
You guys are forgetting that sometimes cutting makes a man look bigger.

At the same time, since he has "barely anything" to cut, he can cut and still be in a healthy weight range.

How is saying "put on some quality meat" better advice that stating "a newbie to the game can do both"





It's spelled obese btw.

KingJustin
10-04-2006, 10:34 PM
I don't think there's any sense in him cutting at this point. He can do a maintenance thing where he doesn't bulk or cut but happens to lose fat and gain muscle and that'll probably work. It'll probably work just about as well if he just puts on a few pounds, though.

BidChest
10-04-2006, 10:37 PM
I don't think there's any sense in him cutting at this point. He can do a maintenance thing where he doesn't bulk or cut but happens to lose fat and gain muscle and that'll probably work. It'll probably work just about as well if he just puts on a few pounds, though.

I want to put on a few pounds but also get muscle, cut. Is there an example of a powerclean here on the forums ?

KingJustin
10-04-2006, 10:56 PM
Don't bother with power cleans unless you have someone who really knows what they're doing teach you how to do them. Don't have some "friend who lifts weights" and don't watch them online. It is an incredibly technical lift that you really don't need to be doing.

I know what your goals are and I tailored my advice around that. There's really a whole lot that you still need to learn before you can really even understand your goals (for example, you're not going to be "turning your fat into muscle" and you're not going to be doing exercises that make you look cut or "toned") and if you just cut all your fat then you're going to be a 120lb man that looks anorexic and unhealthy with any clothes on. Just spend a few months putting on some muscle and then cut the fat off, you'll be much better off in 5 months, just suck it up until then.

VikingWarlord
10-05-2006, 06:06 AM
1. I'm successfully cutting. My diet is in order, and I have a significant amount of muscle to cut down to.

2. This kid does not have a significant amount of muscle on his frame. It was my advice (you know, what he came in here looking for) that he put on some good mass so he can cut down to that and not look like a kid on a Sally Struthers commercial. I still see nothing wrong with that.

I stand by what I said. Clean bulk first, then cut.

Natetaco
10-05-2006, 06:23 AM
[QUOTE=VikingWarlord}.I stand by what I said. Clean bulk first, then cut.[/QUOTE]

ahmen:ninja:

Davidelmo
10-05-2006, 07:55 AM
You cut to reveal muscle. He has very little muscle - therefore cutting is a bad idea. He would do well trying to eat healthy and starting to weightlift. He's a complete beginner so he'll put on a bit of muscle fairly easily to start.

I gave him good advice. If he read every sticky in the lifting and diet forums (like I told him to) he'd be off to a good start. We can't be expected to give every single new guy a full explanation of everything - that's what the articles and sticky threads are for.

Davidelmo
10-05-2006, 08:00 AM
So far you've gotten poor advice from this thread so I'll chime in.

To get leaner you'll need your diet in order. To get bigger you'll ALSO need your diet in order.

You're new to lifting so you'll be able to get leaner and put on muscle at the same time. The trick is meal timing.

Also remember all calories are not created equal.

Poor advice?

The trick is meal timing? Complete ********. Studies have shown the difference between 3 and 6 meals is absolutely nothing. Total calories are what matters. The effect of timing is negligible.

"Not all calories are created equal." - thats a horrible statement. Is the OP supposed to understand what that means? Try reading the diet forum from time to time - we are still arguing about this. You can't avoid basic physics - if energy out is bigger than energy out, you lose weight.

pipes
10-05-2006, 08:29 AM
Poor advice?

The trick is meal timing? Complete ********. Studies have shown the difference between 3 and 6 meals is absolutely nothing. Total calories are what matters. The effect of timing is negligible.

"Not all calories are created equal." - thats a horrible statement. Is the OP supposed to understand what that means? Try reading the diet forum from time to time - we are still arguing about this. You can't avoid basic physics - if energy out is bigger than energy out, you lose weight.


Yeah, who is giving the poor advice? Care to elaborate on any of that Karateboy. I've been around this board for a while and I've read a lot of your previous posts and all you seem to do is regurgitate the same garbage all the time. You seem to look down on everyone else as if you know it all. Calm down, stop trying to act like a hero and try to show a little more respect for other peoples opinions.

KingJustin
10-05-2006, 09:29 AM
The trick is meal timing? Complete ********. Studies have shown the difference between 3 and 6 meals is absolutely nothing. Total calories are what matters. The effect of timing is negligible.
For the record, I don't buy that at all. I'd like to see how the studies were conducted. I would guess that they seriously lacked external validity.

Chubrock
10-05-2006, 09:40 AM
Listen to KingJustin. He has given you some good advice. There is no reason that you can't shed some bodyfat and increase your strength while eating at maintenance. I've done it before at a worse state than you. Just read the stickies in the diet forums and you should be fine.

Jordanbcool
10-05-2006, 10:39 AM
Scratch the cut focus on building some quality muscle. You wont like how you look if you cut now. Trust me. Just start bulking and lifting hard. Read around on this site so you get your diet in order.

good luck.

Jordanbcool
10-05-2006, 10:40 AM
"Not all calories are created equal." - thats a horrible statement. Is the OP supposed to understand what that means? Try reading the diet forum from time to time - we are still arguing about this. You can't avoid basic physics - if energy out is bigger than energy out, you lose weight.

Flame bait!!

Aw come now dave I thought you of all people would realize the importance of macro's ;)

hehe

RickTheDestroyer
10-05-2006, 12:15 PM
WHY does everyone ever fat guy on this forum around the word ethopian.
He's in a healthy weight range. YOU @ 285 ARE NOT. Does making fun of someone smaller make you feel better? Does it justify that you're obese? Does it make you feel more like a macho man because you're filled out with lard?
Stop judging people from your point of view and look at the bigger picture.tuttut
You should focus on using those busy hands of yours to eat more instead of typing inflammatory posts and giving bad advice. It seems like you're on a personal mission to tell every 160 pound kid who shows up here that he needs to cut, which is truly terrible advice.
At 165 he could even bulk pretty fast to 215 or so and be fine, but realistically a slow clean bulk will take care of everything this kid needs.

Davidelmo
10-05-2006, 12:17 PM
For the record, I don't buy that at all. I'd like to see how the studies were conducted. I would guess that they seriously lacked external validity.

I'll have a look at finding some for you. I dont know why it suprises you. Most bodybuilders eat 6 meals a day as a comfort thing (when bulking) or to keep hunger down (when cutting). So long as total calories are the same, so should the weight gain or loss.

Rock Steady
10-05-2006, 02:17 PM
I'll have a look at finding some for you. I dont know why it suprises you. Most bodybuilders eat 6 meals a day as a comfort thing (when bulking) or to keep hunger down (when cutting). So long as total calories are the same, so should the weight gain or loss.

6 meals a day being better than 3 makes sense to me, and I have a simple way that I look at. Think of food consumption as a spectrum, from less frequent to more frequent.

At one end, we have extremely rarely. This is hypothetical, so let's say you completely pig out once every two days and eat 6,000 calories in one sitting. At the other end, something like an IV that provides a continuous food supply - also 3,000 cals a day average.

You're telling me there's not a difference between those two methods of eating? Additionally, I think we can all argee which one is more healthly.

This is my very simple way of judging that eating 6 times a day is better than 3.

KingJustin
10-05-2006, 02:28 PM
I'll have a look at finding some for you. I dont know why it suprises you. Most bodybuilders eat 6 meals a day as a comfort thing (when bulking) or to keep hunger down (when cutting). So long as total calories are the same, so should the weight gain or loss.
I am not arguing that 6000 calories through 3 meals is not equal to 6000 calories through 6 meals as far as weight gain/loss.

I think Rock Steady gave a good way to explain this, but basically by eating only a couple very big meals your body may not be able to use all the food and some may be stored as fat. Eating many meals throughout the day also keeps your metabolism high, which is, imo, the best way to avoid putting on fat.

Davidelmo
10-05-2006, 03:07 PM
I am not arguing that 6000 calories through 3 meals is not equal to 6000 calories through 6 meals as far as weight gain/loss.

I think Rock Steady gave a good way to explain this, but basically by eating only a couple very big meals your body may not be able to use all the food and some may be stored as fat. Eating many meals throughout the day also keeps your metabolism high, which is, imo, the best way to avoid putting on fat.

You're partly right. But your body will always "use" any food you give it - although of course you can't ensure every gram of protein goes into muscle etc. You will always use food in some form.

BUT you have to remember that in the long term, so long as calories are not exceeding your maintenance by too much, your fat gain should be smaller.

Okay, eating 3000kcal in one sitting will cause fat gain temporarily. But if your maintenance is 4000kcal, then on the long term you will still lose weight as that fat is broken down to release energy for your normal function. Most people forget about the difference between temporary and permanent fat stores. We know bodybuilding is a sustained effort - you need to eat above or below maintenance for several days at least to see any real effect. You store fat after every meal but it is the long term effect which will dictate real fat loss or gain.

Jinkies
10-05-2006, 04:39 PM
Yall guys make it too complicated.

If i wanna gain weight I make an extra peanut butter sandwhich and eat it. Then I lift and see results. If I wanna lose weight I do more cardio and keep my intake the same. I've never looked too deep into anything and i've been doing pretty good. Yall make it seem like a burdon, oh man i gotta eat blah blah. Theres no point doing it if ur miserable.

HahnB
10-05-2006, 05:03 PM
You guys are forgetting that sometimes cutting makes a man look bigger.


Sure, when the fat is covering a significant amount of muscle. That clearly isn't the case here.

BidChest
10-05-2006, 05:24 PM
Ok I need to cut up on my chest................................... i've done some workouts for a month and haven't really noticed any difference.

HahnB
10-05-2006, 05:38 PM
What was your routine, what did your diet look like? Don't expect fantastic results after 30 days.

BidChest
10-05-2006, 05:45 PM
I wasn't really on a "diet", BUT I haven't eaten BK or Mcdonalds or any of that crap either. Alot of Subway turkey sandwhich, chicken, spaghetti, pork, banana's, cranberry juice. I don't see my self eating 6 meals everyday because every day I wake up at differen't times with school/work that would be impossible.

I would go to the gym: run/walk for 10-15 minutes every time I started any of this....
I would also do abs every other day.
Work out

Monday
Chest
Bicep

Tuesday
Shoulders
Tricep

Wednesday
Back
Bicep

Thursday
Legs

Friday
Running only
Bicep
Tricep

Saturday
Running only
Bicep
Tricep

Sunday
Nothing

KingJustin
10-05-2006, 05:52 PM
You're partly right. But your body will always "use" any food you give it - although of course you can't ensure every gram of protein goes into muscle etc. You will always use food in some form.
Did you think that when I said "some [excess calories] may be stored as fat" that I really meant "I don't know wtf is really going to happen to the excess calories"?

Your body can only process so much protein/carbs at one time. The rest ends up getting stored as fat. Same with carbs. It may not seem like a big deal, but it's definitely bigger than you're making it out to be and all the little things really add up.

getfit
10-05-2006, 05:55 PM
I wasn't really on a "diet", BUT I haven't eaten BK or Mcdonalds or any of that crap either. Alot of Subway turkey sandwhich, chicken, spaghetti, pork, banana's, cranberry juice. I don't see my self eating 6 meals everyday because every day I wake up at differen't times with school/work that would be impossible.

I would go to the gym: run/walk for 10-15 minutes every time I started any of this....
I would also do abs every other day.
Work out

Monday
Chest
Bicep

Tuesday
Shoulders
Tricep

Wednesday
Back
Bicep

Thursday
Legs

Friday
Running only
Bicep
Tricep

Saturday
Running only
Bicep
Tricep

Sunday
Nothing


way to much arm work!
What do you do for legs?

BidChest
10-05-2006, 05:58 PM
I've only been doing this for a month and the only leg time I get is on there.... ;/

getfit
10-05-2006, 06:00 PM
why do you work arms everyday?

DoUgL@S
10-05-2006, 06:09 PM
Although bulking and cutting is a matter of preference, it is hard to argue that for the look this guy wants a bulk would be better right now. Then when he cuts, he will have some more muscle mass and acheive the look he wants.

To the OP, you need to rework you routine. Something that incorporates more than just arm work. Take a look at the WBB routines to get some good ideas.

Davidelmo
10-05-2006, 09:00 PM
Did you think that when I said "some [excess calories] may be stored as fat" that I really meant "I don't know wtf is really going to happen to the excess calories"?

Your body can only process so much protein/carbs at one time. The rest ends up getting stored as fat. Same with carbs. It may not seem like a big deal, but it's definitely bigger than you're making it out to be and all the little things really add up.

Yes.. TEMPORARY fat stores. You store fat after every meal because you don't use the energy straight away. But in the long term if you are eating under maintenance, you will lose weight. It's basic physics and those rules are unavoidable.

Jordanbcool
10-05-2006, 09:58 PM
You're partly right. But your body will always "use" any food you give it - although of course you can't ensure every gram of protein goes into muscle etc. You will always use food in some form.

BUT you have to remember that in the long term, so long as calories are not exceeding your maintenance by too much, your fat gain should be smaller.

Okay, eating 3000kcal in one sitting will cause fat gain temporarily. But if your maintenance is 4000kcal, then on the long term you will still lose weight as that fat is broken down to release energy for your normal function. Most people forget about the difference between temporary and permanent fat stores. We know bodybuilding is a sustained effort - you need to eat above or below maintenance for several days at least to see any real effect. You store fat after every meal but it is the long term effect which will dictate real fat loss or gain.

Great post bro. Very informative.

Good examples too. Keep up the good advice.

KingJustin
10-05-2006, 10:36 PM
Yes.. TEMPORARY fat stores. You store fat after every meal because you don't use the energy straight away. But in the long term if you are eating under maintenance, you will lose weight. It's basic physics and those rules are unavoidable.
OK, I think this is the thing that a lot of people on this site don't pick up on. You're right in what you're saying, but here's where the small things really count.

If I'm bulking and having 100% of my protein going towards muscle growth, using 100% of my carbs for energy, etc and never storing fat, then I can bulk really clean.

If you're bulking and having half your protein being stored as fat (because your body cannot properly use ridiculous amounts of protein at the same time), then you're going to have a really dirty bulk.

As far as cutting goes, you're going to end up burning a lot more muscle and losing a smaller percentage of fat if you don't time your meals right.

And yes, you will lose/gain weight all the same, for the most part (eating many meals boosts metabolism and so you actually burn a little more calories), but you won't lose as much fat/gain as much muscle.

KingJustin
10-05-2006, 10:45 PM
Okay, eating 3000kcal in one sitting will cause fat gain temporarily. But if your maintenance is 4000kcal, then on the long term you will still lose weight as that fat is broken down to release energy for your normal function. Most people forget about the difference between temporary and permanent fat stores. We know bodybuilding is a sustained effort - you need to eat above or below maintenance for several days at least to see any real effect. You store fat after every meal but it is the long term effect which will dictate real fat loss or gain.

Here's where the difference shines. Let's take a hypothetical, super watered down example.

Dude 1 weighs 100 lbs and have 10% body fat, or 10 lbs of fat. Your maintenance is 6000 calories, you eat 4500 all in one sitting. This causes you to temporarily store 3500 calories as fat, which is equal to a pound of fat. So, at the end of the day, you have 11 lbs of body fat, and your body gets to burn 1.29 lbs. The 1.29 lbs is burnt not necessarily strictly fat, but from both your lean muscle and your fat, at say 20% muscle, 80% fat.

Dude 2 weighs 100 lbs and has 10% body fat. Maintenance = 6000kcals, eats 4500 over 8 meals. None of this is stored as fat, because it's all burned off properly. So, at the end of the day, he has 10 lbs of body fat and he gets to burn off .29 lbs. The 1.29 is burnt from 20% muscle, 80% fat.

The dude in the second example ends up leaner than the dude in the first. The point is that nutrient timing actually does make a difference and this is a pretty much universally accepted fact in bodybuilding. Everyone talks about nutrient timing. Discounting it is really unwise.

miken5254
10-05-2006, 11:14 PM
To the OP if you want to make some changes decide now that you will lift consistently and get your diet in order. Make sure you stay on track.

Davidelmo
10-06-2006, 04:56 AM
OK, I think this is the thing that a lot of people on this site don't pick up on. You're right in what you're saying, but here's where the small things really count.

If I'm bulking and having 100% of my protein going towards muscle growth, using 100% of my carbs for energy, etc and never storing fat, then I can bulk really clean.

If you're bulking and having half your protein being stored as fat (because your body cannot properly use ridiculous amounts of protein at the same time), then you're going to have a really dirty bulk.

As far as cutting goes, you're going to end up burning a lot more muscle and losing a smaller percentage of fat if you don't time your meals right.

And yes, you will lose/gain weight all the same, for the most part (eating many meals boosts metabolism and so you actually burn a little more calories), but you won't lose as much fat/gain as much muscle.

That is a huge and very incorrect assumption. You'll never get 100% of protein going towards muscle - it's impossible.

Davidelmo
10-06-2006, 05:06 AM
Here's where the difference shines. Let's take a hypothetical, super watered down example.

Dude 1 weighs 100 lbs and have 10% body fat, or 10 lbs of fat. Your maintenance is 6000 calories, you eat 4500 all in one sitting. This causes you to temporarily store 3500 calories as fat, which is equal to a pound of fat. So, at the end of the day, you have 11 lbs of body fat, and your body gets to burn 1.29 lbs. The 1.29 lbs is burnt not necessarily strictly fat, but from both your lean muscle and your fat, at say 20% muscle, 80% fat.

Dude 2 weighs 100 lbs and has 10% body fat. Maintenance = 6000kcals, eats 4500 over 8 meals. None of this is stored as fat, because it's all burned off properly. So, at the end of the day, he has 10 lbs of body fat and he gets to burn off .29 lbs. The 1.29 is burnt from 20% muscle, 80% fat.

The dude in the second example ends up leaner than the dude in the first. The point is that nutrient timing actually does make a difference and this is a pretty much universally accepted fact in bodybuilding. Everyone talks about nutrient timing. Discounting it is really unwise.

Again, you're making a huge assumption which really isn't true. Plus, you're generating a lot of numbers - like assuming 20% muscle, 80% fat etc.
Also, remember I originally said that I was talking about the difference between 3 and 6 meals. I didn't say that 1 meal vs 8 was a good idea.

KingJustin
10-06-2006, 09:56 AM
Jeez, wasn't it obvious enough that I am exagerrating these things? I also know that a 100lb man's maintenance isn't 4500kcals. I know 100% of protein isn't going towards muscle, but if one times things ideally then a lot closer to 100% goes towards muscle than if he timed things poorly.

And yeah, you said 3 meals vs 6 and not 1 meal vs 8, but the principles are still the same, the difference just isn't magnified quite as well.

McIrish
10-06-2006, 11:36 AM
Jeez, wasn't it obvious enough that I am exagerrating these things? I also know that a 100lb man's maintenance isn't 4500kcals. I know 100% of protein isn't going towards muscle, but if one times things ideally then a lot closer to 100% goes towards muscle than if he timed things poorly.

And yeah, you said 3 meals vs 6 and not 1 meal vs 8, but the principles are still the same, the difference just isn't magnified quite as well.

Actually, I think I read a study referenced on these very boards that proved DavidElmo's point - said study compared one meal versus six/day and showed that there was no statistically significantly difference between the two in terms of weight gained provided that caloric intake was the same. The take-home message here is that although it doesn't mesh well with mainstream bodybuilding dogma (it never does, does it?), it doesn't matter how many times you eat/day.

It's almost 1 a.m. or I'd dig it up now - I'll have a look tomorrow.

KingJustin
10-06-2006, 01:08 PM
Actually, I think I read a study referenced on these very boards that proved DavidElmo's point - said study compared one meal versus six/day and showed that there was no statistically significantly difference between the two in terms of weight gained provided that caloric intake was the same. The take-home message here is that although it doesn't mesh well with mainstream bodybuilding dogma (it never does, does it?), it doesn't matter how many times you eat/day.

It's almost 1 a.m. or I'd dig it up now - I'll have a look tomorrow.
I agree that it doesn't (really) matter as far as weight gain. Calories in = calories out there. The contention is that it DOES matter as far as body fat.

Paul Stagg
10-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Yall guys make it too complicated.

If i wanna gain weight I make an extra peanut butter sandwhich and eat it. Then I lift and see results. If I wanna lose weight I do more cardio and keep my intake the same. I've never looked too deep into anything and i've been doing pretty good. Yall make it seem like a burdon, oh man i gotta eat blah blah. Theres no point doing it if ur miserable.

From the 'Credit where credit is due' department: You all might be well served to listen to this.

This isn't rocket surgery.

Gabrielle
10-06-2006, 03:05 PM
lift hard and bulk slow. You have a skinny-fat type physique, due to lack of muscle maturity and probably a not so great diet. Reach for the sky bro.

Jordanbcool
10-06-2006, 08:41 PM
I would have to agree that meal timing is very important. I've always thought this.

However, from learning through these forums, lyle mcdonald and various bodybuilding books I've come to a better conclusion.

For our purposes meal timing is really only important twice a day. (That is even if you train that day.) Before and after your workout are key meals for building muscle, storing fat etc. For the rest of the day food timing becomes less and less important because your simply going about your normal activites and there is no reason for your body to deviate from what it always does.

Lets say I eat....a doughnut before a workout. That doughnut (although terrible pre-workout) will probably be burned up from your workout. Now lets say I eat the same doughnut afterwards. That doughnut will be partitioned much better because I've done two things. Depleted glycogen and stressed my muscles. So basically anything afterwards will be shoved into those primary goals and it becomes harder to store fat.

Am I saying to eat all your junk food around these times? Hell no. My point is, that these two times are critical to flooding your body with macro's and calories so that they can be used for better things then fat storage. They also show that meal timing does have its place, just not the way that most people think.

-jordan

KingJustin
10-07-2006, 12:14 AM
Yeah, the most important times are before/after your workout (probably to some extent by far).

I still don't concede that all other times of day it doesn't matter. It matters, just not as much.

kartwheel
10-07-2006, 01:21 PM
i feel i'm on the same side as kingjustin on this. meal timing does mean something. everyone's goal should be to maintain a POSITIVE nitrogen balance in their muscles throughout the entire day. if i allow myself to not eat for 5 to 6 hours (excluding sleep), i'm allowing my body to begin breaking down that POSITIVE balance in my muscles, and becoming a NEGATIVE nitrogen balance. not a good anabolic/growing muscular state if you ask me. the body will break itself down to feed itself, and that's the last thing anyone wants to happen to lean mass.

Jordanbcool
10-07-2006, 05:51 PM
i feel i'm on the same side as kingjustin on this. meal timing does mean something. everyone's goal should be to maintain a POSITIVE nitrogen balance in their muscles throughout the entire day. if i allow myself to not eat for 5 to 6 hours (excluding sleep), i'm allowing my body to begin breaking down that POSITIVE balance in my muscles, and becoming a NEGATIVE nitrogen balance. not a good anabolic/growing muscular state if you ask me. the body will break itself down to feed itself, and that's the last thing anyone wants to happen to lean mass.

Yea, but as soon as you eat something this process stops. So unless your going on a PSMF or just dont eat for two days this will have a very frivolous effect.

Con
10-07-2006, 06:22 PM
Im kinda in teh same boat as the poster, so the advise is interesting.

Anyway, about the number of meals. After reading a lot, ive come to the conclusion that calories are the ruling factor. Ofcourse when you take it to extreme oppositive such as 8 meals vs 1 meal, things can change. One lyle site, ive read studies that 3, vs 6 meals dont matter, but this applied to losing weight.

And to justin, i dont think you can boost ur metabolism, pretty sure thats a myth. Also, TEF comes into play when u start talking about bigger meals. Overall, whether ur meals are bigger or smaller, you will be burning the same amount of calories.

KingJustin
10-07-2006, 06:25 PM
And to justin, i dont think you can boost ur metabolism, pretty sure thats a myth.
Are you kidding?

Con
10-07-2006, 06:27 PM
No.

KingJustin
10-07-2006, 06:43 PM
Go look up HIIT.

Con
10-07-2006, 06:48 PM
Why? HIIT had nothing to do with you eating various amounts of meals to boost metabolism.

Would you mind showing me some evidence that eating more leads to increased metabolism? More importantly, that overall it actually makes a huge difference?

KingJustin
10-08-2006, 12:50 AM
Why? HIIT had nothing to do with you eating various amounts of meals to boost metabolism.

Would you mind showing me some evidence that eating more leads to increased metabolism? More importantly, that overall it actually makes a huge difference?
You were very clear when you said, "i dont think you can boost ur metabolism, pretty sure thats a myth."

At any rate, we'll keep this from being an argument and instead make it a discussion! I will first say that I don't think it makes a "huge difference," but it's a small, yet still noticeable difference worth implementing if at all possible. I really doubt there's any real studies on this, but just about all respectable bodybuilding writers recommend eating many meals throughout the day. I know that I, personally, can tell a very noticable difference in my metabolism. I feel very sluggish if I just eat big meals instead of spreading out what I'm eating over a few smaller ones.

Here's a google search, notice that every result pretty much agrees:
http://www.google.com/search?q=metabolism%2C+meals+per+day&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Edit: The link below gives some insight: "There was no significant difference in macronutrient intake [between the two diets]. Compared with the three-meal/d diet, nine meals per day reduced fasting plasma total, low-density lipoprotein (LDL), and high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol by 6.5% (P < 0.005), 8.1% (P < 0.005), and 4.1% (P < 0.05), respectively."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8438781&dopt=Abstract
I wish this had information that applied more specifically to what we are discussing, but at least you can see that there are significant physiological differences between eating many small meals/a few big meals each day.

Also, I feel that eating the right macro's at the right times is important. You don't want to eat a ton of carbs before you go to sleep, nor do you want to have a bunch of fats before your workout. Looking at macro and meal timing vs. not looking at it can make a substantial difference over a period of time.

Con
10-08-2006, 07:31 AM
Eating many meals throughout the day also keeps your metabolism high

This is what I meant when I said keeping the metabolism high, sorry I didnt clarify that I was talking specifically about meal frequency.


I know that I, personally, can tell a very noticable difference in my metabolism. I feel very sluggish if I just eat big meals instead of spreading out what I'm eating over a few smaller ones.

Here's a google search, notice that every result pretty much agrees:
http://www.google.com/search?q=metab...en-US:official



Well for one, that is your own personal experience and im sure you know everyone is different. About the google link, one is a forum, so that proves nothing. The first link, is by someone(actually had an author, so i skimmed through it). Once I saw him say that eating break is important because you might eat more later on if you dont and if you eat a big breakfast, you can have a smaller lunch. Basically hes just saying eat less, not so much about meal frequency.

And the pubmed study, it said, no changes in bodyweight, let alone body composition. So you're right, i didnt have much relevance to this situation, unless ur lookin to improve things like LDL cholesterol.


Also, I feel that eating the right macro's at the right times is important. You don't want to eat a ton of carbs before you go to sleep, nor do you want to have a bunch of fats before your workout. Looking at macro and meal timing vs. not looking at it can make a substantial difference over a period of time.

Well, yea, but again I was talkin simply about meal freqency. Pre/post-workout/before bed are more important times of the day that require a bit more attention, but that also depends on ur goals.

Anyway, im glad this didnt turn into an argument, but maybe the poster learned something.

KingJustin
10-08-2006, 02:35 PM
About the google link, one is a forum, so that proves nothing. The first link, is by someone(actually had an author, so i skimmed through it). Once I saw him say that eating break is important because you might eat more later on if you dont and if you eat a big breakfast, you can have a smaller lunch. Basically hes just saying eat less, not so much about meal frequency.
Look through the rest of the links. Off the first set of results, quotes from different pages:

"A six meals per day diet is your best option for losing weight and gaining lean muscle mass quickly. Eating 6 small, protein-rich meals and snacks - spaced 2 to 3 hours apart - has been proven to be the most effective way to keep your metabolism going strong and to ensure that your energy levels remain constant throughout the day."

"This plan has been designed using the cleanest (low in fats), highest quality foods possible distributed between 5 to 6 meals each day to maintain a high metabolism."

"What’s most important for upping your metabolism is CONSISTENCY in applying the Burn The Fat nutrition and training principles every single day. That includes: Meal frequency: eat 5-6 small meals per day."

"I recommend that you begin eating a small, nutritious meal every 2-4 hours for a total of 5-6 meals per day. At first this may seem like a lot, especially since you’ve been eating so little, but I assure you that it will not only boost your metabolism, it will help curb your appetite as well."

Just about every respectable bodybuilding writer agrees here.


And the pubmed study, it said, no changes in bodyweight, let alone body composition. So you're right, i didnt have much relevance to this situation, unless ur lookin to improve things like LDL cholesterol.
I didn't see any measurement indicating they tried to look at body composition. I very well could have missed it, though. Can you quote it?

But, at any rate, as I said the difference might be small, but it adds up over time. It's also a lot more pronounced in bodybuilders than in the normal population. But, the study only lasted for two weeks. I don't think 9 meals vs 3 meals is going to be pronounced enough that it comes all that close to being a pound over a couple of weeks. But, in bodybuilders over the course of a year or so, it can be a couple pounds of fat difference.

Con
10-09-2006, 06:08 AM
Well, im lookin more for controlled studies to prove the meal frequency idea. Its not hard for people to say something, hel I could say that to lose weight, you need to eat above maintenance but STUDIES and the law of thermodynamics proves me otherwise.

And nah, they didnt measure body composition, I said let alone composition cuz they didnt even inckude it in there, assumin that there was no effect.

So yea, if it does make an affect, its more than likely small and irrelevant unless u may be competing.

KingJustin
10-09-2006, 09:54 AM
Its not hard for people to say something, hel I could say that to lose weight, you need to eat above maintenance but STUDIES and the law of thermodynamics proves me otherwise.
The second law of thermodynamics really isn't working here. I think this is more misapplied here than when creationists use it.



And nah, they didnt measure body composition, I said let alone composition cuz they didnt even inckude it in there, assumin that there was no effect.
Probably not a safe assumption. If they measured it, they would have reported it. I think there is a notably better chance of body composition changes than body weight changes, actually. Metabolism being slightly sped up is one thing (which I still think it is, and nearly every weight lifting author agrees with me), but moreso is the fact that by eating huge meals, you are automatically storing all that fat, whereas by eating smaller meals the food is going to contribute to muscle/energy, etc, and the excess is hardly going to fat storage.



So yea, if it does make an affect, its more than likely small and irrelevant unless u may be competing.
It's probably insignificant if you do it for 2 weeks. Multiply that by 52 (two years) and you might see something, especially when you are dealing with weight lifters.

I definitely don't accept a 2 week study that shows that 19 typical people didn't lose a significant amount of weight with 9 meals vs 3 meals to mean that 1) eating frequently doesn't speed up metabolism, or 2) eating frequently doesn't assist body compesition. Still, the study is helpful in that it shows that there are clearly differences in the body (cholesterol changes at least) that become apparrent when you eat more frequently.

SpecialK
10-09-2006, 12:59 PM
From the 'Credit where credit is due' department: You all might be well served to listen to this.

This isn't rocket surgery.

Good genetics can enable one to get away with less detail, and if we are to believe Jinkies's numbers, he clearly has some exceptional genetics.

bhsf2006
10-09-2006, 05:24 PM
I wasn't really on a "diet", BUT I haven't eaten BK or Mcdonalds or any of that crap either. Alot of Subway turkey sandwhich, chicken, spaghetti, pork, banana's, cranberry juice. I don't see my self eating 6 meals everyday because every day I wake up at differen't times with school/work that would be impossible.

I would go to the gym: run/walk for 10-15 minutes every time I started any of this....
I would also do abs every other day.
Work out

Monday
Chest
Bicep

Tuesday
Shoulders
Tricep

Wednesday
Back
Bicep

Thursday
Legs

Friday
Running only
Bicep
Tricep

Saturday
Running only
Bicep
Tricep

Sunday
Nothing

You should definitely get a new routine, try WBB1 or BGB.