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View Full Version : Fight in 6 weeks - How best to get fit & ready



Reala
10-07-2006, 12:27 PM
Hey guys and girls,

Got my first kickboxing fight in 6 weeks, it is only 3 x 2 minute rounds, but I still want to be ready. I know a fighters first fight is important, because some lose and give up or take such a beating they don't want to put themselves through it again, I know win or lose I will fight again... but I obviously want to win and win well.

I want to ask you guys, how I can get to my maximum possible fitness (in the time frame) and clean up my technique as much as possible.

Thanks in advance!

clawhammer_33
10-07-2006, 02:23 PM
Try this from www.crossfit.com is used by a lot of fighters, its one hell of a workout.

Fight Gone Bad

In this workout you move from each of five stations after a minute. This is a five-minute round from which a one-minute break is allowed before repeating. We�ve used this in 3 and 5 round versions. The stations are:

1. Wall-ball � 20 pound ball, 8 ft target. (Reps)
2. Deadlift high-pull 75 pounds (Reps)
3. Box Jump � 20" box (Reps)
4. Push-press 75 pounds (Reps)
5. Row � calories (Calories)

The clock does not reset or stop between exercises. On call of "rotate," the athlete/s must move to next station immediately for good score. One point is given for each rep, except on the rower where each calorie is one point.

Dinosaur
10-07-2006, 05:18 PM
Try this from www.crossfit.com is used by a lot of fighters, its one hell of a workout.

Fight Gone Bad

In this workout you move from each of five stations after a minute. This is a five-minute round from which a one-minute break is allowed before repeating. We�ve used this in 3 and 5 round versions. The stations are:

1. Wall-ball � 20 pound ball, 8 ft target. (Reps)
2. Deadlift high-pull 75 pounds (Reps)
3. Box Jump � 20" box (Reps)
4. Push-press 75 pounds (Reps)
5. Row � calories (Calories)

The clock does not reset or stop between exercises. On call of "rotate," the athlete/s must move to next station immediately for good score. One point is given for each rep, except on the rower where each calorie is one point.

^^For a fight? :confused:

Shadowbox, bagwork, focus mitts, rope-skipping, and light sparring. Jog in the morning, HIIT at night. Train several times a week, get plenty of sleep, and make sure you'll make weight. You'll be fine.

Natetaco
10-07-2006, 08:23 PM
Running up bleachers helped me for wrestling conditioning alot. Add that in with your running maybe

BJJfighter
10-08-2006, 02:21 AM
--Spar with people better than you..And for more than 3 rounds.. aim for around 4-5

--As far as fitness goes, build stamina because to tell you the truth, when you first fight, they pin you up to someone with about the same ability and experience that you have..Then after like 10 fights it's a whole different experience.. atleast that is how it is when i was training..anyways... Train for stamina without sacrificing weight and dropping too much poundage where you feel tired.. etc =/ work your ass off for 5 weeks is what im pretty much saying..

--The last week before your fight, turn your training down because for the past 5 weeks you pushed yourself hard. The last couple days before the fight your nerves will be getting to you and you will be feeling agitated, and just think to yourself "train hard, win easy" is what my trainer used to say...

keep thinking that before your fight and you will be so pumped that your ego just goes through the roof.. great rush.. =D

BJJfighter
10-08-2006, 02:29 AM
^^For a fight? :confused:

Shadowbox, bagwork, focus mitts, rope-skipping, and light sparring. Jog in the morning, HIIT at night. Train several times a week, get plenty of sleep, and make sure you'll make weight. You'll be fine.

I agree with him up to where he said "light sparring" Think of it this way...

Bagwork..Shadowboxing...Glove work..moving around the ring is all good when it comes to getting the feel of the ring and conditioning, but does the bag punch back??? No.. it's a whole different world when you get in the ring, and the guy is throwing kicks, and punches...I STRESS ON EXTENSIVE SPARRING.. make it a good sparring session and don't play games.

And it's only amateur anyways.. you're fighting for fun, love of the sport

and i always say to myself, a loss just shows you your weaknesses, and helps you improve yourself.

Dinosaur
10-08-2006, 07:14 AM
When a fight's coming up though, you don't want to go balls to the wall every session. You risk more injury that way. I probably should have said alternate heavy and light sparring. The worst is when you're two weeks out from a fight and get a good gash on your head or an injury from sparring too hard.

ElPietro
10-08-2006, 08:19 AM
Um shouldn't your coach or instructor have taught you this by now if you have a fight coming up?

If you don't know how to train for a fight, then perhaps you are not ready for a fight.

Unless this is some schoolyard brawl.

McVein
10-08-2006, 10:25 AM
meet me at the flagpole......in 6 weeks

Reala
10-08-2006, 01:24 PM
It's an interclub tournement, where they have the top 20 students from each school fight... considering there is only 25 in ours I don't feel too privilidged :P I am yellow belt, soon to be orange... been training 4 months.

Any way, basically I didn't want advice saying stupid things like "You should know" why even bother replying? I am currently doing a lot of running and cardio, with an hour a days worth of bag work, 30 minutes a day of sparring, Eating well.

I was just looking for advice off more experienced fighters as to what they do top prepare for a fight. Thanks to 8/10 people who have replyed in a helpful and not bitchy manner, appriciated :) and any more advice, please add ^^

BJJfighter
10-08-2006, 08:38 PM
I am currently doing a lot of running and cardio, with an hour a days worth of bag work, 30 minutes a day of sparring, Eating well.
^^


You are pretty much a pro ;)

goodluck training...!

1mmort4l
10-08-2006, 09:20 PM
It's an interclub tournement, where they have the top 20 students from each school fight... considering there is only 25 in ours I don't feel too privilidged :P I am yellow belt, soon to be orange... been training 4 months.

Any way, basically I didn't want advice saying stupid things like "You should know" why even bother replying? I am currently doing a lot of running and cardio, with an hour a days worth of bag work, 30 minutes a day of sparring, Eating well.

I was just looking for advice off more experienced fighters as to what they do top prepare for a fight. Thanks to 8/10 people who have replyed in a helpful and not bitchy manner, appriciated :) and any more advice, please add ^^


When i used to do Boxing and Kickboxing, i went into my second tournament fairly nervous.. I trained with a guy that was predominantly a grappler. We sparred with the gloves, but if we clinched we would grapple, and he would even shoot to take me down etc..
For me, this was the beginning of a whole new training style, and i entered the world of BJJ, Grappling and then MMA.
You will be very surprised at the level of confidence you gain by knowing that you are a much more rounded fighter.. Not only that, but when your in a boxing clinch, you will likely have the upper hand on your opponent given that your clinching ability will be more effective than his. I found i was easily getting the advantage in the clinch, and able to land effective blows, and it was also less exhaustive for me than him.

With 6 weeks to go, i would do at least another 2 - 3 weeks of hardcore traing with full contact sparring. I would jog every day, and do circuit traing aswell. With 3 of 4 weeks left, i would tone it down, but increase the cardio work, until a week before hand..

Good luck mate, let us know how you go..

1mmort4l
10-08-2006, 09:22 PM
meet me at the flagpole......in 6 weeks


ROFL!!! :burger: :burger:

Reala
10-09-2006, 12:55 PM
Funny you say that actually Immortal, I train with a Jujitzu / MMa guy on a Sunday afternoon... we train throws, takedowns and thai clinch (with your hands locked behind the head) as well as the traditional clinch holding the elbows. . I do enjoy it, although I suck at breakfalls... but I am pretty flexible / have strong joints so I don't get hurt much anyway... however he did tell me in a few weeks he wants to practice slams... we will see how tough I am then I guess ='( lol.

Thanks for all the advice. How far would you suggest I jog and for how long, what kind of curcuit would you do?

clawhammer_33
10-09-2006, 08:33 PM
^^For a fight? :confused:

Shadowbox, bagwork, focus mitts, rope-skipping, and light sparring. Jog in the morning, HIIT at night. Train several times a week, get plenty of sleep, and make sure you'll make weight. You'll be fine.


To improve conditioning with functiional movements.

I don't think a fight has a lot of jogging/running. Fight Gone Bad incorporates varying functional movements closer to that of a fight.

1mmort4l
10-10-2006, 01:01 AM
To improve conditioning with functiional movements.

I don't think a fight has a lot of jogging/running. Fight Gone Bad incorporates varying functional movements closer to that of a fight.

Not sure what you mean here... The only running you will actually do in a fight is if you are faced with an angry foe weilding a sword..>> outnumber
The jogging is for cardio, and does tend to help your footwork. Skipping is great for coordination and footwork, and with 2 mins of double and triple skips, a fantastic cardio session.





Thanks for all the advice. How far would you suggest I jog and for how long, what kind of curcuit would you do?

Well, there are hundreds of different circuits you can do, and i would hope that your coach has taken you through circuit training already..
I have no idea how far you should run mate, depends on your level really. Maybe a half hour jog, and bring it home near the end..
To be honest though, at this point, sparring is your best freind. The more confident you feel, the better you will be. Same goes for fitness.
I would really recommend talking to your coach about it, otherwise your not really getting your moneys worth...
GL :dj:

Reala
10-10-2006, 03:21 AM
Spose, I been using Bas Rutten's (the Man) MMA training tapes, pretty hard work, but awesome. you start week 1 doing 3 x 2 minute rounds, and by week 6 should b at 6 x 3 minute rounds. Pretty hard work out, but I am feeling the benefits (and the pain!). It's basically very hard cardio... which is what I need I think. I do about 30 minutes sparring 4 days a week :) Love it... although I need kickboxing boots because right now I can't spar kicks with power, just light >.<

Anthony
10-10-2006, 06:35 AM
What exactly are you looking to improve?

Your strength?

Your conditioning?

Your skill?

This might be different if you had more time or you had different strengths/weaknesses ... but for now I think conditioning should be your top priority. Skill training should be number two. And if you have time, add a little bit of strength training.

How many times per week are you skill training? How long is each session? Try to keep at least one full rest day per week, so depending on your skill training, add 1-3 pure conditioning sessions per week. Fight Gone Bad is a great place to start (as are most examples at crossfit). Jogging is not.

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 07:04 AM
To improve conditioning with functiional movements.

I don't think a fight has a lot of jogging/running. Fight Gone Bad incorporates varying functional movements closer to that of a fight.

I don't think it has a lot of that other stuff either. He should be spending most of his time working on fighting skills.

1mmort4l
10-10-2006, 07:49 AM
What exactly are you looking to improve?

Your strength?

Your conditioning?

Your skill?

This might be different if you had more time or you had different strengths/weaknesses ... but for now I think conditioning should be your top priority. Skill training should be number two. And if you have time, add a little bit of strength training.

How many times per week are you skill training? How long is each session? Try to keep at least one full rest day per week, so depending on your skill training, add 1-3 pure conditioning sessions per week. Fight Gone Bad is a great place to start (as are most examples at crossfit). Jogging is not.

Anthony.. I've read your journal, so i know your an animal. :thumbup: I wish i had the commitment that you do, you do what i always wanted to do.. Anyway, i dont want to get into an opposing debate with you, but could you tell me why you think Jogging is not a good idea?
The OP sounds as though he has fairly limited resources, and may not be getting alot from his coach. So i think jogging and circuit training are his best bet. Followed very closely by sparring. Remembering this is his first fight, and IMO cardio and confidence (coming from sparring experience) are what will help him the most. provided of course that his opponent is fairly similar in skill.

Reala
10-10-2006, 07:53 AM
I am spending around an hour a day 4 days a week on my cardio, this consists of my tapes which basically shout out "Jab, Cross, Hook" etc, etc, for about 6 x 3 minute rounds, then 40 minutes of press ups, running, sit ups, jumping, shadow boxing, that kind of thing.

I have 2 hours kickboxing lessons 3 days a week, which breaks down into:
1 hour MMA
1 hour sparring (With blackblets)
2 hours cardio / stretching
1 hour Pad work
1 hour Line work

and another 2 days I tend to go down and do my own thing, a bit of light bag work and maybe some light sparring (mainly talking with instructors) but working out a little whilst I do it.

Last week I did this, probably do the same again:

Saturday: Cardio Workout (1 hour),
Sunday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours), Cardio Workout (1 hour)
Monday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), own technique (1 hour)
Tuesday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours),
Wednesday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), own technique (1 hour)
Thursday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours),
Friday: Rest Day

Reala
10-10-2006, 07:57 AM
It is all about breathing patterns. Fighters don't use moderate levels of energy for about half an hour and then rest, they use extremely high bursts of energy for 2 minutes (in my case) rest for 30 seconds, 2 minutes exteremely high energy and rest for 30 seconds, 2 minutes of extremely high energy and rest.

Listening to Bas Ruttens tape the other day, and he said he had a marathon runner in one of his classes and after 30 minutes he dropped out and his class wondered why, it was because his breathing pattern was moderate but constant, where as a fighters is high with breaks and bursts... so you need quick recovery and explosivness.

I am no expert, but that's what I picked up. That's why I do my tapes, they go very fast and work me exactly how I would be worked in a fight so will enhance my body for that purpose. However, I am going to do some jogging, it is good for all round fitness and obviously good for general cardio.

I just want to know what I can add to my current workout to improve me for a fight... I think I have the cardio base covered, technique in my lessons, so maybe I need to work on my strength & plyometrics?

Isn't crossfit like Crazy Non Stop stuff? I hate that kind of stuff... weights bore the heck out of me, although if that's what I gotta do, that's what I gotta do I guess... Is this crossfit program free or do you have to pay a memership / joining fee?

1mmort4l
10-10-2006, 08:00 AM
I am spending around an hour a day 4 days a week on my cardio, this consists of my tapes which basically shout out "Jab, Cross, Hook" etc, etc, for about 6 x 3 minute rounds, then 40 minutes of press ups, running, sit ups, jumping, shadow boxing, that kind of thing.

I have 2 hours kickboxing lessons 3 days a week, which breaks down into:
1 hour MMA
1 hour sparring (With blackblets)
2 hours cardio / stretching
1 hour Pad work
1 hour Line work

and another 2 days I tend to go down and do my own thing, a bit of light bag work and maybe some light sparring (mainly talking with instructors) but working out a little whilst I do it.

Last week I did this, probably do the same again:

Saturday: Cardio Workout (1 hour),
Sunday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours), Cardio Workout (1 hour)
Monday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), own technique (1 hour)
Tuesday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours),
Wednesday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), own technique (1 hour)
Thursday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours),
Friday: Rest Day

Aggh, now im getting a picture.. i was under the impression that you were somewhat new to the sport, and that you werent actually doing a great deal of training.... With a routine like that, i really cant see you running into any dramas. Make sure your diet is good..

Anthony
10-10-2006, 08:02 AM
Don't let my journal stop you from starting a debate, hahah!

Anyway, the reason why I don't recommend jogging is because it only uses one energy pathway (oxidative) and that pathway is rarely used in combat sport.

Now if you said "sprinting intervals" then I would say that's an excellent tool to prepare for a fight.

1mmort4l
10-10-2006, 08:10 AM
Don't let my journal stop you from starting a debate, hahah!

Anyway, the reason why I don't recommend jogging is because it only uses one energy pathway (oxidative) and that pathway is rarely used in combat sport.

Now if you said "sprinting intervals" then I would say that's an excellent tool to prepare for a fight.


"Oxidative" you say.... Interesting actually, i will Google tomorrow but could you give me a "quick" rundown of what it is in regards to jogging..
Cheers mate.. :thumbup:

Anthony
10-10-2006, 08:30 AM
"Oxidative" you say.... Interesting actually, i will Google tomorrow but could you give me a "quick" rundown of what it is in regards to jogging..

Basically oxidative means oxygen is being used. It is aerobic - think slow, constant, long distance.

Combat sports use primarily the phosphagen and glycolytic pathways, which are anaerobic. Think short bursts of high energy like kicking, punching, take downs, etc.

Reala
10-10-2006, 08:32 AM
You not got any recommendations for strength / pragmatics? :P

I have been going around 4 months, currently training for my orange belt =)


Basically oxidative means oxygen is being used. It is aerobic - think slow, constant, long distance.

Combat sports use primarily the phosphagen and glycolytic pathways, which are anaerobic. Think short bursts of high energy like kicking, punching, take downs, etc.

See... I was kinda right... boo-ya Mr Rutten B)

Reala
10-10-2006, 08:34 AM
sprinting intervals is basically HIIT right? Or wrong? :P

Anthony
10-10-2006, 08:35 AM
Saturday: Cardio Workout (1 hour),
Sunday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours), Cardio Workout (1 hour)
Monday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), own technique (1 hour)
Tuesday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours),
Wednesday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), own technique (1 hour)
Thursday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours),
Friday: Rest Day

Can you tell me what you do for the stuff in bold? Doesn't have to be exact, just a general description.

Reala
10-10-2006, 08:44 AM
I do 6 x 3 minute rounds on the heavy bag. Basically I have a tape that shouts out "Jap, Cross", "Body Shot" whatever, for a round, then a 30 second break and then starts again. That lasts about 25 minutes (including breaks and is knackering).

Then I do a 40 minute MMA workout, which is basically shadow boxing with combinations, then the tape shouts out from time to time 30 seconds of press ups, 30 seconds of sit ups, 30 seconds jumping squats, 30 seconds of neck rolls, 30 seconds of bicep curls... its basically designed to knacker you out... it has a fair amount of breaks in it.

If you wanna read up on it, it's called "The Bass Rutten - MMA Workout" It's quite highly commended.

Reala
10-10-2006, 08:48 AM
I rarely use the thai one, I use the all round one. I can't find a decent summary of the 40 minute work out I am afraid, but hopefully I covered it.
Here you go, I only do 6 rounds, but this is the stats for 7:

Example: On the 7 rounds of 3 minutes from the All Round Fighting tape you make:

424 knees or kicks

162 sprawls

525 punches

70 push ups

20 seconds in push up stand, making fast wrestling exercises. That's at least a punch/kick/sprawl/push up every second!

On the 7 rounds of three minutes Thai Boxing tape:

900 punches

527 knees or kicks

That's 1427 punches and knees or kicks. 7 rounds of three minutes is 1260 seconds, so you throw more then one punch or kick a second!

Anthony
10-10-2006, 08:52 AM
You're definitely on the right track!

For some diversity once in awhile, you could replace your mma workout with a metcon workout from crossfit. It won't be sport specific, but you'll get an idea of where you stand in terms of strength and conditioning as a few hundred people will be doing the same workout.

I might structure something like this:

sun: kick boxing lesson (2 hours)
mon: skill practise (30-60 minutes), crossfit wod (10-20 minutes)
tue: kick boxing lesson (2 hours)
wed: mma workout (40 minutes), skill practise (30-60 minutes)
thu: kick boxing lesson (2 hours)
fri: rest day
sat: strength training (1 hour)

Reala
10-10-2006, 09:10 AM
Thanks man, is crossfit a pay per month type thing? How do I get access to their workouts?

Anthony
10-10-2006, 09:27 AM
Nope, it's 100% free. There's a new workout posted every day on their main site: www.crossfit.com. You can also check the FAQ for examples of their benchmark workouts. Those will come in handy when they post a strength workout and you want a metcon workout.

For example yesterday was:
Run 400m
Dumbbell Swings, 55lbs, 21 reps
Chinups, BW, 12 reps
3 rounds for time (elite would be sub 8 minutes!)

One of the most popular workouts is called Fran:
21 thrusters, 95lbs
21 chinups
15 thrusters, 95lbs
15 chinups
9 thrusters, 95lbs
9 chinups
For time (elite would be sub 3 minutes)

But there are hundreds of examples you can choose from.

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 09:37 AM
"Oxidative" you say.... Interesting actually, i will Google tomorrow but could you give me a "quick" rundown of what it is in regards to jogging..
Cheers mate.. :thumbup:

Basically, you don't want to go over 15-20 minutes in an endurance activity as then it starts to use a different energy pathway than you do in fighting. I usually stick to 2-3 miles tops and run them as fast I can for my jogging, or when I do a run you toss in sprint intervals so you would jog for 200yds, sprint 50yds, jog 200, sprint 50, etc. Not necessarily 200 and 50, just an example.

EDIT: Never mind, already answered. :thumbup:

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 09:39 AM
IMO Crossfit is okay for general fitness, but if you want to be more than an all-around athlete you need a different approach. If you're playing football, Crossfit can help break the monotony once in a while but you still want a primarily football-focused approach. Crossfit is just *too* broad if you're trying to do something more than just stay fit and have fun.

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 09:40 AM
If you wanna read up on it, it's called "The Bass Rutten - MMA Workout" It's quite highly commended.

I own it myself, lots of fun.

Anthony
10-10-2006, 10:02 AM
IMO Crossfit is okay for general fitness, but if you want to be more than an all-around athlete you need a different approach. If you're playing football, Crossfit can help break the monotony once in a while but you still want a primarily football-focused approach. Crossfit is just *too* broad if you're trying to do something more than just stay fit and have fun.

This post makes me wonder if you know what Crossfit is ... it's not a specific workout program. It's a set of principles using a variety of methods borrowed from various systems (weightlifting, powerlifting, gymnastics, sprinting, etc). To say it's too broad is confusing, since it can be completely customized to suit your goals. Not to mention it's endorsed by numerous world class athletes who do more than just stay fit. ;)

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 10:23 AM
This post makes me wonder if you know what Crossfit is ... it's not a specific workout program. It's a set of principles using a variety of methods borrowed from various systems (weightlifting, powerlifting, gymnastics, sprinting, etc). To say it's too broad is confusing, since it can be completely customized to suit your goals. Not to mention it's endorsed by numerous world class athletes who do more than just stay fit. ;)

Oh I know what Crossfit is. Let's put it in different terms then. Say you have two individuals who want to do a powerlifting competition. One trains in the Crossfit way, aside from concentrating on the big three he does his regular Crossfit routine. The other we'll say uses Westside. Once they get to the competition, who do you think has the better chance of winning? The Westside guy naturally. He concentrated on a workout strictly for powerlifting, whereas the Crossfitter was still too generalized.

And after seeing how gassed BJ Penn was after that short time of fighting Matt Hughes, do you still want to say Crossfit is good for MMA? ;) There's many better ways of training for MMA. Check out some of Rich Franklin's methods, there's no wonder he's as well-conditioned as he is. Frank Shamrock was always awesome too, he never stopped working and never got tired.

Anthony
10-10-2006, 10:33 AM
Your examples still lead me to believe you don't fully understand what Crossfit is. Think principles, not methods. ;)

I know BJ Penn's name is on their site, but that was 5 years ago. He openly stated he didn't use "professional training" for his last fight, so you can't blame that on Crossfit.

Do I think it's good for MMA? ****ing right, hands down, no hesitation. Skill training being equal, I would put my money on anyone who uses Crossfit for their strength and conditioning work.

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 10:40 AM
Your examples still lead me to believe you don't fully understand what Crossfit is. Think principles, not methods. ;)

I know BJ Penn's name is on their site, but that was 5 years ago. He openly stated he didn't use "professional training" for his last fight, so you can't blame that on Crossfit.

Do I think it's good for MMA? ****ing right, hands down, no hesitation. Skill training being equal, I would put my money on anyone who uses Crossfit for their strength and conditioning work.

What I'm basically trying to say is if your'e trying to get good at one specific thing, the Crossfit methodology isn't the best approach. Crossfit basically follows the core performance fad right now, and most of its approaches are borrowed from other areas previously. I'm not totally anti-Crossfit, I just don't agree with some of its approaches.

People can have their own opinions. I just think a person should spend more time being sport-specific than generalized, which a good portion of it is. A lot of the MMA fighters who train Crossfit have questionable stamina IMO as well. I personally think a good mix of strongman and O-lifting would be a solid base, then from there the rest of their routine be solely for fighting skills and conditioning.

Anthony
10-10-2006, 11:19 AM
What I'm basically trying to say is if your'e trying to get good at one specific thing, the Crossfit methodology isn't the best approach.
Crossfit is a GPP/strength and conditioning program. They've never claimed to be anything else. In fact, they ACTIVELY encourage you to play other sports. So you use Crossfit for your GPP and rely on your coach for SPP. How you balance the two is dependent on your strengths and weaknesses.


Crossfit basically follows the core performance fad right now, and most of its approaches are borrowed from other areas previously.
If by "core performance" you mean GPP, then yes, it's a GPP program. It borrows from weightlifting, powerlifting, gymnastics, sprinting, etc. Throw all of them together and see what you come up with? Not surprisingly, one scary ****ing athlete.


I'm not totally anti-Crossfit, I just don't agree with some of its approaches.
Constantly varied functional movements performed at high intensity. If you're an athlete, it's pretty hard to disagree with that type of strength and conditioning training. In fact, most athletes not using Crossfit are still using those principles.


People can have their own opinions. I just think a person should spend more time being sport-specific than generalized, which a good portion of it is.
A GPP program that is general? Get out of town. That's the whole point. No one is saying GPP replaces SPP.


A lot of the MMA fighters who train Crossfit have questionable stamina IMO as well.
Very subjective statement. Even your previous BJ attack was off base - he had a rib injury that prevented him from breathing/moving properly.

Anyway, if your program produces better results you should be able to plow through the Crossfit workouts. What's your time on Fran? Diane? Cindy? Helen? Linda? I mean, you did try Crossfit before you decided it was no good for strength and conditioning ...... right?

And yeah, that's a challenge. I'm willing to put up any of my numbers against yours. Who knows, maybe your conditioning program will make me look like a little girl and I'll have to reevaluate my approach. I'm 100% willing to admit that is possible.


I personally think a good mix of strongman and O-lifting would be a solid base, then from there the rest of their routine be solely for fighting skills and conditioning.
Add some sprinting and it sounds like Crossfit to me.

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 11:42 AM
Anyway, if your program produces better results you should be able to plow through the Crossfit workouts. What's your time on Fran? Diane? Cindy? Helen? Linda? I mean, you did try Crossfit before you decided it was no good for strength and conditioning ...... right?

And yeah, that's a challenge. I'm willing to put up any of my numbers against yours. Who knows, maybe your conditioning program will make me look like a little girl and I'll have to reevaluate my approach. I'm 100% willing to admit that is possible.

Take it in this approach then. How many people do Crossfit? A lot, correct? So if you're going to fight against someone who's done the same workout you've done in all the same ways, what benefit do you really have over him? Why follow the drones?

As for the challenge, kind of unfair to challenge someone who doesn't regularly do those does it? That would be like me challenging you to out-log press me, beat my time in Atlas stones, then do a yoke walk with 500+ pounds quicker than I can. If you want to challenge such things like vertical jump tests, 2 mile runs, and other activities found on physical assessment tests then yes we could do that. Most likely it'll just be an exercise in futility though as it will be hard to verify on either side. Sufficient to say I can do one-finger pull-ups, run 2 miles in under 12:30, walk with holding 400+ pounds in my arms for distance (that's a "core" workout if I've ever felt one), and often do "bull in the ring" sparring where you switch out against different opponents every 2-3 minutes and go for about 20-25 minutes of straight standup with a fresher fighter every few minutes. Does it really sound like I need Crossfit?


Add some sprinting and it sounds like Crossfit to me.

That's because Crossfit claims it does it all, so everybody and anybody's workout will look like Crossfit.

Anthony
10-10-2006, 12:34 PM
Take it in this approach then. How many people do Crossfit? A lot, correct? So if you're going to fight against someone who's done the same workout you've done in all the same ways, what benefit do you really have over him? Why follow the drones?
Yep, a lot of people have started using crossfit. Why? Cause it works. I would MUCH rather fight someone with a 5 minute mile compared to someone with a sub 3 minute Fran and/or 30 rounds of Cindy.


As for the challenge, kind of unfair to challenge someone who doesn't regularly do those does it?
Fran = chinups and thrusters (front squat + push press)
Cindy = chinups, pushups, situps, squats
Helen = run, db swings, chinups
Diane = deadlifts, handstand pushups
Linda = deadlifts, bench, cleans

I'm pretty sure you do most of those movements on a regular basis. Comparing general conditioning (above) to sport specific movements (your example) isn't the same. But I would most certainly give them a shot if I had the equipment.

The vertical jump and 2 mile run ... first, they are kind of boring, don't you think? Second, I thought this was about Crossfit? All I'm trying to do is get you to try some crossfit workouts to see how your strength and conditioning hold up. (plus my running sucks since I've only ran 2+ miles twice in my life, LOL!)

Regardless, the challenge wasn't so much to see who is better, it was intended to introduce you to some other conditioning ideas. So humor me, try a few of the workouts. If you want to continue this over PM/email/whatever, that's okay with me. I've always respected your posts and opinion and certainly don't want this to turn into a public pissing match. Just figured you'd be up for a challenge that could alter your perspective a little. :)

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 12:41 PM
Fran = chinups and thrusters (front squat + push press)
Cindy = chinups, pushups, situps, squats
Helen = run, db swings, chinups
Diane = deadlifts, handstand pushups
Linda = deadlifts, bench, cleans

I'm pretty sure you do most of those movements on a regular basis. Comparing general conditioning (above) to sport specific movements (your example) isn't the same. But I would most certainly give them a shot if I had the equipment.

Picking up something and putting it on a barrel as in the case of stones isn't really a specific sport. Neither is picking up something heavy in your arms and carrying it. Both are simple movements the average person does regularly.


The vertical jump and 2 mile run ... first, they are kind of boring, don't you think? Second, I thought this was about Crossfit? All I'm trying to do is get you to try some crossfit workouts to see how your strength and conditioning hold up. (plus my running sucks since I've only ran 2+ miles twice in my life, LOL!)

If you do any kind of physical fitness test, they'll most likely be on it. Marine Corps PFT (pull-ups, crunches, and 3-mile run), Army PFT (push-ups, sit-ups, 2-mile run), Navy SEAL screening (500m swim, push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, 1.5 mile run), or for police departments like the last one I did (sit and reach test, 1.5 mile run, push-ups, sit-ups, vertical jump, and 100m sprint). These are all used to test what your overall fitness level is all about. That's what Crossfit is all about isn't it? Overall fitness? So you shouldn't need to worry about doing those.

Those kinds of test IMO are good to do once in a while to make sure you're keeping good levels of fitness all over.


Regardless, the challenge wasn't so much to see who is better, it was intended to introduce you to some other conditioning ideas. So humor me, try a few of the workouts. If you want to continue this over PM/email/whatever, that's okay with me. I've always respected your posts and opinion and certainly don't want this to turn into a public pissing match. Just figured you'd be up for a challenge that could alter your perspective a little. :)

I'm a traditionalist to be honest, so I'm biased on my views. I stick to free weights and compound lifts, think Swiss balls would make good molds for Atlas stones, and when I hear the word "toning" I want to throw a 45lb plate at their heads. Training for three different sports (strongman, O-lifting, and full-contact Karate) plus maintaing a first class Army PFT gives me an overall program. I've got plenty to do already :p

Anthony
10-10-2006, 01:12 PM
Picking up something and putting it on a barrel as in the case of stones isn't really a specific sport. Neither is picking up something heavy in your arms and carrying it. Both are simple movements the average person does regularly.
Yep, and I would love to try them ... unfortunately I don't have the equipment. I'm open to ideas on how to rig something up, though.


If you do any kind of physical fitness test, they'll most likely be on it. Marine Corps PFT (pull-ups, crunches, and 3-mile run), Army PFT (push-ups, sit-ups, 2-mile run), Navy SEAL screening (500m swim, push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, 1.5 mile run), or for police departments like the last one I did (sit and reach test, 1.5 mile run, push-ups, sit-ups, vertical jump, and 100m sprint). These are all used to test what your overall fitness level is all about. That's what Crossfit is all about isn't it? Overall fitness? So you shouldn't need to worry about doing those.
You're right, I'm not worried about doing those. I do damn near all of them on a weekly basis (it's been awhile since I tested vertical). It's interesting that you bring up military tests though. Are you aware a study was done on traditional military training compared to Crossfit and found Crossfit produces better results, less injuries, etc.? The Canadian Army is in the process of converting and I've heard the Americans aren't far behind. Actually, I'd say the majority of people who use Crossfit are soliders and cops.


Those kinds of test IMO are good to do once in a while to make sure you're keeping good levels of fitness all over.
I guess it depends on your definition of fitness.


I'm a traditionalist to be honest, so I'm biased on my views. I stick to free weights and compound lifts, think Swiss balls would make good molds for Atlas stones, and when I hear the word "toning" I want to throw a 45lb plate at their heads. Training for three different sports (strongman, O-lifting, and full-contact Karate) plus maintaing a first class Army PFT gives me an overall program. I've got plenty to do already :p
The funny thing is that if you called your training Crossfit, no one would know the difference. You incorporate the same principles. Free weights, compound lifts, functional movements, high intensity, etc. That's why I'm a little surprised that you're writting if off ... it's everything you already do with a few twists here and there.

It's just a shame that you've made up your mind about Crossfit without trying it. I guess it doesn't sound as hardcore as "strongman" but you might be surprised.

Hell, if you want to come up with 4-5 tests for me, I'll give them a shot if you give 4-5 Crossfit workouts a try. ;)

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 01:45 PM
Yep, and I would love to try them ... unfortunately I don't have the equipment. I'm open to ideas on how to rig something up, though.

Sandbags are good for imitating stones, car pushing, using triceps bars or a trap bar for farmer's walks, thick bars, river rocks (just find a big rock somewhere and keep it out in your yard), beer keg, stuff like that is all easy to get.


You're right, I'm not worried about doing those. I do damn near all of them on a weekly basis (it's been awhile since I tested vertical). It's interesting that you bring up military tests though. Are you aware a study was done on traditional military training compared to Crossfit and found Crossfit produces better results, less injuries, etc.? The Canadian Army is in the process of converting and I've heard the Americans aren't far behind. Actually, I'd say the majority of people who use Crossfit are soliders and cops.

Where was this study? If it's from Crossfit, there's no wonder why it would be. :D


I guess it depends on your definition of fitness.

They test the five main areas at a minimum: muscular strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular, flexibility, and body fat percentage for a lot of them. It's good to see how you stack up I think.


The funny thing is that if you called your training Crossfit, no one would know the difference. You incorporate the same principles. Free weights, compound lifts, functional movements, high intensity, etc. That's why I'm a little surprised that you're writting if off ... it's everything you already do with a few twists here and there.

I hear that a lot from people. Two of my friends that I used to train in the martial arts with were avid Crossfitters. I invited them over for a Saturday of events and both were spewing in my backyard near the end of it. I'm not a big fan of GPP for doing anything other than general fitness. I'm a stubborn bastard, what can I say.


Hell, if you want to come up with 4-5 tests for me, I'll give them a shot if you give 4-5 Crossfit workouts a try. ;)

Nah, that's fine. I don't need to test you and you don't need to test me, because we both probably have different standards of what we're trying to do. We can just agree to disagree I suppose :strong:

Reala
10-10-2006, 02:47 PM
:help: Wow... I go kickboxing for 2 hours and you guys write all this... I havn't read it all yet *knackered* but I will :help:

My convidence rose a bit today, I was given my yellow belt... then I went into sparring and in my first full contact sparring session (10 ounce gloves, no head guard, no shin pads) I stopped my training parter... Not really good in the sense he's my buddy, but the coach said it was a well worked shot, so I feel a bit less nervous now. This guy was a belt above me and he even said I was doing a good job. Hopefully his nose isn't broken, just bruised... there was a lot of blood though (I.e stoppage) :S

Reala
10-10-2006, 02:48 PM
BJ DID NOT GAS!!!! HE BROKE 2 RIBS AND SEPERATED THE RIGHT SIDE!!!
Mate... if you ever broke a rib you know he didn't gas... he just couldn't breathe.

I wonder how Matt Hughes trains cardio... that guy is just a freak... you can tell he was just born strong and built... his father was a farmer... his farmer was a farmer, so the strength and genetics have gotta come from them. I guess when he was young he farmed and got a lot of strength from a young age. I love how Joe Rogan calls him "A Genetic Freak".

I think the fight every wants to see is Franklin vs Hughes... two of the most dominant, best cardio guys out there... Problem is I can't see Matt ever going up, and no chance will Franklin go down (he was a light heavyweight a few years back!).

Oh well, end the off topic UFC stuff I guess :D

Anthony
10-10-2006, 05:26 PM
Dino, the study was done by the Canadian Military which is why they are switching.

The tests you mention don't test strength, at least in terms of 1RM. They are mostly cardiovascular and stamina ... but I'm just nitpicking. :p

I'm not exactly sure why you think I'm trying to push GPP into SPP ... I've said from the beginning that Crossfit is a GPP program. Nothing more, nothing less. If you participate in sport, you still need to practise that sport. I was very clear on that.

We can agree to disagree. If you change your mind and want to put your money where your mouth is, you know where to find me. :p

Reala
10-10-2006, 05:58 PM
pfft... Canadians... obvious lies... Canadians and their... ah crap... erm don't hurt me Anthony... :angel:

Dinosaur
10-10-2006, 08:01 PM
The tests you mention don't test strength, at least in terms of 1RM. They are mostly cardiovascular and stamina ... but I'm just nitpicking. :p

Some do, it depends on which test. The Raleigh PD test has a 1RM bench press.


I'm not exactly sure why you think I'm trying to push GPP into SPP ... I've said from the beginning that Crossfit is a GPP program. Nothing more, nothing less. If you participate in sport, you still need to practise that sport. I was very clear on that.

And I mentioned I'm rather anti-GPP myself, I hate the term and a lot of the ways people say they're doing it. Like I said before, agree to disagree :thumbup:


We can agree to disagree. If you change your mind and want to put your money where your mouth is, you know where to find me. :p

For what, a Crossfit workout? Comparing deadlifts? Seeing who can go more rounds? Not sure which one you mean here :confused:

Anthony
10-11-2006, 05:21 AM
GPP = anything outside of your sport.

You compete in karate, but you lift weights. For you, lifting weights is GPP. Maybe you hate the term, that's fine, call it whatever you want if it makes you feel more hardcore. But even big bad Dinosaur does GPP. :p

Honestly, I fully enjoy reading your posts on the forums. I have respect for your opinion, knowledge, and experience. But to knock something because it doesn't fall into your definition of hardcore without even trying it ... that doesn't sit right with me. Especially when I've seen the benefits first hand.

You said you're a traditionalist and old school. So am I. That means put up or shut up. If you want to say that my strength and conditioning routine (Crossfit) does nothing to conditioning me for fighting, then at least TRY some of the examples I listed before you judge it. If you completely destroy them, I'm all ears to whatever advice you offer. If not, then maybe you'll learn a trick or two for your own routine.

:indian:

markdk86
10-11-2006, 06:59 AM
Anthony, you got me really interested into Crossfit now. I was hopping to start MMA soon, how would I replace Crossfit with a program such as Bill Starr 5x5 which is what I use now. I like the looks of my muscles but I never wanted to be big, always been trying to cut weight but taking a break from dieting now. I'm always looking for something intense. So how could I change Bill Starrs routine, three days a week, into one with crossfit if I go into MMA ?

Anthony
10-11-2006, 08:21 AM
Mark, the easiest way would be to follow their 3 on 1 off example on the website and just skip the workout on your MMA days. Try to keep at least one full rest day per week.

Once you feel comfortable with their approach, you could alter it to suit your goals/strengths/weaknesses. Right now I'm using a 1:2 / strength:conditioning approach because my conditioning is what I want to focus on. Once I get over this bronchitis and back to skill training, it will most likely be a 1:2:1 strength:conditioning:skill or maybe even a 1:2:1, depends on how much work I can handle.

Dinosaur
10-11-2006, 09:24 AM
GPP = anything outside of your sport.

You compete in karate, but you lift weights. For you, lifting weights is GPP. Maybe you hate the term, that's fine, call it whatever you want if it makes you feel more hardcore. But even big bad Dinosaur does GPP. :p

But lifting weights is a part of my other sports, so technically it wouldn't be called GPP. They just compliment each other, like say playing football and wrestling in high school.


Honestly, I fully enjoy reading your posts on the forums. I have respect for your opinion, knowledge, and experience. But to knock something because it doesn't fall into your definition of hardcore without even trying it ... that doesn't sit right with me. Especially when I've seen the benefits first hand.

I don't knock the system as a whole. I think it is great for individuals who want overall general fitness. Anything that makes people get off their McDonald's-laden asses and get moving is good in my book. I think it's an excellent starting point but from there you need to branch out and do other things. I went through the whole bodyweight conditioning phase a few years where I was doing several hundred Hindu pushups and squats a day and doing all sorts of pull-ups. That helped me get started. Then I picked up a kettlebell and was doing my high-rep one-arm snatches and C&Js and windmills and the like. From there it got my interest in strength training, and from there I got to where I am today.

You need to constantly evolve, otherwise you'll stagnate. What's good for a beginner is not necessarily good for an advanced athlete. You yourself admitted you're not even sure you can run two miles. If you're claiming to be in shape overall from your fitness, your cardiovascular system should at least be on the same level.


You said you're a traditionalist and old school. So am I. That means put up or shut up. If you want to say that my strength and conditioning routine (Crossfit) does nothing to conditioning me for fighting, then at least TRY some of the examples I listed before you judge it. If you completely destroy them, I'm all ears to whatever advice you offer. If not, then maybe you'll learn a trick or two for your own routine.

I never said it did nothing to help your fighting. If you look at my post again from before you can see that. As I said, it is a great routine for beginners and intermediates alike. The more advanced you get however, the more you will need for certain areas. "GPP" is good for the start, but it needs to become more and more SPP as you go farther. I don't know what your conditioning level nor actual amateur fighting experience is, so I can't entirely judge you on this to be sure.

My philosophy however is: "If you want more endurance for throwing punches, throw more punches. If you want to be able to roll longer, roll more. If you want to be able to spar longer, spar more." The more you actually do the SPORT, the better you will get. You can try to train to do more pull-ups by doing lat pulldowns and other exercises, but it's inferior to actually going and doing more pull-ups. If I want to get better at lifting a 280# rock, I'll go and lift it more. If I want to be able to squat more weight, I'll work my squat harder. See where I'm coming from?

You forget that the very first thing I said was "in my opinion." Sure we can compare athletic accomplishments all day long, but in the long run it's not going to end the argument. It'll just grow more and more out of proportion until it eventually irritates one of us and that'll be the end of it for then, but it may pop up again later. You said "we agree to disagree" before when I said it, but then kept going with this.

Reala
10-11-2006, 05:14 PM
okiez, so I am going to throw in 30 minutes of stretching twice a day 6 days a week long term because I am following 'Thomas Kurz' stretching scientifically methods at the moment and I aim to have hugely impreved flexibility in 3 months. So my weekly routine now looks like this:

I don't think I will need the strength training for now to be honest, considering I weight around 160 pounds and fight at 155, I don't really want to tone up I want to lean out especially round my stomach. I think I will stick with my routine and I think that the cardio and kickboxing will help me get ready for the fight. I think the strength training will also tire me out to much for my routine. What you think?

Saturday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), stretching (2 x 30 minutes)
Sunday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours), Cardio Workout (1 hour), stretching (2 x 30 minutes)
Monday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), own technique (1 hour), stretching (2 x 30 minutes)
Tuesday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours), stretching (2 x 30 minutes)
Wednesday: Cardio Workout (1 hour), own technique (1 hour), stretching (2 x 30 minutes)
Thursday: Kick Boxing Lesson (2 hours), stretching (2 x 30 minutes)
Friday: Rest Day

Dinosaur
10-11-2006, 06:23 PM
Thomas Kurz's stretching methods are awesome. Dynamic stretching helped me throw high roundhouse kicks with ease, and I'm currently trying to use it to see if I can get to the point where I can throw a decent axe kick. You're definitely on the right track with that. Just make sure you follow what he says and you'll be good to go.

markdk86
10-11-2006, 10:05 PM
Mark, the easiest way would be to follow their 3 on 1 off example on the website and just skip the workout on your MMA days. Try to keep at least one full rest day per week.

Once you feel comfortable with their approach, you could alter it to suit your goals/strengths/weaknesses. Right now I'm using a 1:2 / strength:conditioning approach because my conditioning is what I want to focus on. Once I get over this bronchitis and back to skill training, it will most likely be a 1:2:1 strength:conditioning:skill or maybe even a 1:2:1, depends on how much work I can handle.

Where on the site is that ? Forums or on the webpage ?

Anthony
10-12-2006, 05:30 AM
Where on the site is that ? Forums or on the webpage ?

On the main page in the center.

markdk86
10-12-2006, 06:13 AM
Lol, you should have said the WODs

Anthony
10-12-2006, 07:10 AM
But lifting weights is a part of my other sports, so technically it wouldn't be called GPP. They just compliment each other, like say playing football and wrestling in high school.
Dino, I'm not going to argue about the definition of GPP when it has been established well before either of us started training. Your lifting and strongman stuff is GPP to your karate. Your karate is GPP to your lifting. Etc, etc, etc.


I don't knock the system as a whole. I think it is great for individuals who want overall general fitness. Anything that makes people get off their McDonald's-laden asses and get moving is good in my book. I think it's an excellent starting point but from there you need to branch out and do other things. I went through the whole bodyweight conditioning phase a few years where I was doing several hundred Hindu pushups and squats a day and doing all sorts of pull-ups. That helped me get started. Then I picked up a kettlebell and was doing my high-rep one-arm snatches and C&Js and windmills and the like. From there it got my interest in strength training, and from there I got to where I am today.
Again, you don't understand Crossfit. I think you have the misconception that it's a collection of certain exercises or workouts. It's not. It's a collection of principles. How you apply those principles depend on your strengths, weaknesses, and goals. Let's review the principles:

CONSTANTLY VARIED FUNCTIONAL MOVEMENTS PERFORMED AT HIGH INTENSITY.

Let's break that down.

CONSTANTLY VARIED = don't repeat the same workouts every week. However, the same movements are repeated constantly (squat, deadlift, lunge, press, push) at varying levels. Almost like a daily/weekly periodization scheme. Periodization!! That's good!

FUNCTIONAL MOVEMENTS = squat, deadlift, lunge, cleans, snatch, bench, push press/jerk, dips, chinups, sprinting, and all their variations. Same **** everyone should be doing.

HIGH INTENSITY = percentage of 1RM or percentage of max heart rate.

Show me ANY high level athlete who does not train like this. For beginners/intermediates? Please. This is the foundation of world class strength and conditioning.


You need to constantly evolve, otherwise you'll stagnate. What's good for a beginner is not necessarily good for an advanced athlete.
Are squats good for beginners? Are they good for advanced athletes? What changes is the level, not the function.


You yourself admitted you're not even sure you can run two miles. If you're claiming to be in shape overall from your fitness, your cardiovascular system should at least be on the same level.
Really? When did I say that? Best read again, Dino. I've ran 5km (3 miles) twice since having surgery in May 2006 to correct my compartment syndrome (google compartment syndrome for more info or check my thread in general health). Before that I was physically unable to run in my entire adult life. So to say I doubt my ability to run 2 miles? Either you're not reading what I post (explains a lot) or you're purposely insulting me.


I never said it did nothing to help your fighting. If you look at my post again from before you can see that. As I said, it is a great routine for beginners and intermediates alike. The more advanced you get however, the more you will need for certain areas. "GPP" is good for the start, but it needs to become more and more SPP as you go farther.
I'm not sure why you are turning this into a SPP versus GPP discussion. Everyone knows SPP is important. But ...

1) even elite athletes perform GPP
2) the original poster is preparing for his FIRST FIGHT


I don't know what your conditioning level nor actual amateur fighting experience is, so I can't entirely judge you on this to be sure.
You can get the details on my strength, conditioning, and fight experience by reading my journal. Am I an elite athlete? Nope! But I wouldn't say my numbers are at the beginner level either.


My philosophy however is: "If you want more endurance for throwing punches, throw more punches. If you want to be able to roll longer, roll more. If you want to be able to spar longer, spar more." The more you actually do the SPORT, the better you will get. You can try to train to do more pull-ups by doing lat pulldowns and other exercises, but it's inferior to actually going and doing more pull-ups. If I want to get better at lifting a 280# rock, I'll go and lift it more. If I want to be able to squat more weight, I'll work my squat harder. See where I'm coming from?
That's why you jog, right? ;)

This discussion isn't about whether SPP is important. If you're an athlete, obviously it is. This discussion is about numerous people saying jogging was good for cardio and then knocking a crossfit workout.

Crossfit is better than Jogging.

Period.


You forget that the very first thing I said was "in my opinion." Sure we can compare athletic accomplishments all day long, but in the long run it's not going to end the argument. It'll just grow more and more out of proportion until it eventually irritates one of us and that'll be the end of it for then, but it may pop up again later. You said "we agree to disagree" before when I said it, but then kept going with this.
I challenged you to try a conditioning workout after you said it wouldn't benefit a fighter. You backed down. I offered to return the favor by taking on a few of your challenges. You backed down again. This isn't about who has better numbers. It's about you trying something before you judge it.

Dinosaur
10-12-2006, 10:22 AM
Dino, I'm not going to argue about the definition of GPP when it has been established well before either of us started training. Your lifting and strongman stuff is GPP to your karate. Your karate is GPP to your lifting. Etc, etc, etc.

If you want to call it that, you can, but I don't consider the ability to throw a roundhouse kick dramatically affecting my ability to do a log press. You do realize a lot of GPP (like Crossfit) is just revamped circuit training from a few decades ago with the "core performace" fad thrown in right? It's far from new or revolutionary.


CONSTANTLY VARIED = don't repeat the same workouts every week. However, the same movements are repeated constantly (squat, deadlift, lunge, press, push) at varying levels. Almost like a daily/weekly periodization scheme. Periodization!! That's good!

A periodization scheme like that will work for beginners and intermediates, but once you get to the upper stages of advanced, not so much. A beginner can easily add 50 pounds to his or her squat in a few months. A highly advanced lifter may take almost a year to get even half of that. What you're describing is called a microcycle in periodization, maybe even a mesocycle if it lasts longer than a week.

If you compare say Westside and Crossfit, you'll notice a difference. For Westside you'll have a max effort day and a dynamic effort day for both upper and lower body in one week. So let's say squat, deadlift, and bench for example. That is what you would do in a week. Now compare the frequency against Crossfit. With constantly changing workouts and intensities, you might do the same in two or even three weeks depending. Yes, you can still make the same progress, but it will take longer. Do you see where I'm getting at?


FUNCTIONAL MOVEMENTS = squat, deadlift, lunge, cleans, snatch, bench, push press/jerk, dips, chinups, sprinting, and all their variations. Same **** everyone should be doing.

Exactly. The main difference is frequency. If I want to work on my deadlift, the best thing to do would be to deadlift more, right? If I'm like most people and following the WODs, it will take me a lot longer to build up that deadlift rather than if I went with say a singles approach or even a GTG approach that Pavel is so fond of. The more you do something, the better you get at it. If you want to run your 40 for football even faster, run your 40 more often.


Show me ANY high level athlete who does not train like this. For beginners/intermediates? Please. This is the foundation of world class strength and conditioning.

Really? How many pro football players would use Crossfit? Sprinters? Swimmers? Olympic weightlifters? Throwers? Not many. They might use similar principles, but their training approaches are dramatically different. Hell, one of the guys I temped with before who's at the Human Energy Laboratory was telling me about the old workouts of the Notre Dame football team from a few year back and how they do a full-body strength training routine of 3x12 and leave the rest of the time to running agility drills, sprints, and working on their plays. A simple basic program, yet worked really well for them that season.

This is just one example but there are many more. There is no one answer to how to train, there is no best system, there is no be-all end-all to fitness. Nobody is doing anything new or revolutionary, many of this stuff has been around from decades before.

[qupte]Really? When did I say that? Best read again, Dino. I've ran 5km (3 miles) twice since having surgery in May 2006 to correct my compartment syndrome (google compartment syndrome for more info or check my thread in general health). Before that I was physically unable to run in my entire adult life. So to say I doubt my ability to run 2 miles? Either you're not reading what I post (explains a lot) or you're purposely insulting me.[/quote]

From an earlier post:

"(plus my running sucks since I've only ran 2+ miles twice in my life, LOL!)"

I wasn't doubting you could, I was saying you weren't too confident in your own running ability. Not knowing you had compartment syndrome previously, I can say that's a legit enough reason in my book.


2) the original poster is preparing for his FIRST FIGHT

Exactly, his first fight. An Olympic weightlifter going into his first competition should be more worried about his snatch and clean and jerk form (his sport) rather than how much he can overhead squat or high pull. What he's doing is great. He's working on endurance specifically for his fight (sparring, shadowboxing, etc.) as well as working on his fighting skills. He's got a pretty full plate already, averaging about 2-3 hours of training a day. Why would he need anything more? It's more likely to push him into overtraining that way.


That's why you jog, right? ;)

I run because for the Army Physical Fitness Test, I have to run. For the various physical fitness tests police departments hold, I have to run as well. I run because I have to, not because I want to. Far from it.


I challenged you to try a conditioning workout after you said it wouldn't benefit a fighter. You backed down. I offered to return the favor by taking on a few of your challenges. You backed down again. This isn't about who has better numbers. It's about you trying something before you judge it.

If you would like to try one of my workouts, you can. All it will cost you is $10 to buy a beer keg and the water required to fill it. If you get video, I'll get video of me doing a Crossfit workout. We can do that if you want. If you're officially stating it as a challenge, then I'll accept. You do realize the majority of this is just arguing over terms and not actual training systems, correct?

My workout is simple, I borrowed it from Steve Justa and was using it for one of my former competitions. With a keg full of water (I was using a full but since I'm not positive if you can handle it, you can make it a lesser weight), do the following:

**With the keg standing straight up on the ground, bend over and grab the bottom with your left hand. Hug the other side with your right arm. Raise yourself up while pulling it up onto your shoulder and stand all the way up with it. Put it back down. Do the other side. 50 times total.
**Once you finish that, move right into keg squats. Shoulder it as before, then with good squat form begin to do squats with it. You can't put it down until you switch sides. 50 times each side.
**Next do keg cleans. Put a hand on each side of it, then power clean it up. No set reps for this, just do as many as you can but more than 30.
**Keg presses come next. Clean the keg as before, then press it up 10 times. You'll want to military press, as trying push presses will make it far more likely to wobble around and lose control of it.
**The last one is simple, just bear hug it for time. No interlocking your fingers, no balancing it on your hips. Make it as tough as possible. No set time, just do as long as you want.

It's not timed at all, finishing is the main goal. To me, this is not GPP as my sport requires me to handle a keg often. Hence my explanation why most of this being argued over is terms and frequency, NOT training systems.

If you can't finish my workout, then what's that prove, my routine is better? No. If I can't finish yours or stomp it into the ground, does that prove yours doesn't work? No. Like I said, we can do this if you want to, but no matter what the outcome it's not going to prove anything. I'm not the average Joe trying out Crossfit, and you're probably not the average Joe trying out mine.

So which Crossfit routine do you want me to do? My camera only takes 60 sec of video at one time, but I'll make sure my cameraman does his best to make sure it records most of it if you want to go that route.

Anthony
10-12-2006, 11:03 AM
I never said Crossfit was revolutionary. If anything, it's back to basics. Weightlifting, powerlifting, sprinting, gymnastics, and the occassional strongman event thrown in for good fun. Can't get much more basic than that.

The thing that has been frustrating me during this discussion is that you seem to think there's one way to implement a Crossfit routine. The WOD on the main page is an EXAMPLE. It's not perfect. Most of the affiliate gyms do something different. I do something different. Why? Because we all have different strengths, weaknesses, goals, work capacity, etc.

So to compare "crossfit" with "westside" and their periodization or frequency makes no sense. Either way, if you look at the frequency of max effort work on the example WOD, it's VERY similar to the ME work in a typical westside routine. Some adjust it to be more, some adjust it to be less. My variation of Crossfit incorporates ME/DE work every 4 days using squat, deadlift, bench, and push press as the main lifts. The periodization scheme I use is borrowed from Cressey, medium, low, high, deload. I haven't fully implemented that part yet, but it's in the plan. Am I doing westside or crossfit? Neither are a workout program, they are a set of principles. Not sure if it's a coincidence, but their principles are pretty similar (I know it's not a coincidence, they get their inspirations from many of the same sources).

I don't know everyone who uses Crossfit. I would say it's mostly used by soliders, cops, and fighters. As for football players, there's a kicker on the Vikings who uses Crossfit. Not sure if he's any good, but there's at least one. Olympic weightlifters, the #1 guy in america uses crossfit, but probably not very much (at that level conditioning may interfer with power). Check out www.mikesgym.org for how they blend weightlifting and crossfit.

Strength/power athletes whose only goal is to move more weight need to be careful on how they incorporate conditioning work. That's no secret. They need some, but not too much. Fighters on the other hand, need a ton. Crossfit is a good way to improve conditioning while using movements outside of their SPP. Hitting the bag all day is fine, but eventually you'll burn out or end up with an overuse injury, just like anything else. Having a method to train your energy systems without encouraging repetitive use injuries is a GOOD thing.

Methods are many, principles are few. Methods always change, principles never do. Of course football players use different methods than fighters and they use different methods than rowers. No one ever argued such. But to limit your strength and conditioning work to sport specific movements? Come on, you know better than that.

For his first fight, with only 6 weeks to go, he should be more concerned about conditioning. I'm not saying he should ignore his skill training. No way. But the chances of him improving his skill dramatically in 6 weeks is slim. The chances of improving his conditioning and fighting strong for all rounds? That's a definite possibility. Not to mention it was his original question! LOL! So continue the skill training and consider some alternative conditioning work. My suggestion for replacing a "cardio" workout with a crossfit metcon workout wasn't promoting overtraining. If anything it would help prevent an overuse injury, it would break up the monotony, and it would expose him to a different form of conditioning that may expose some weaknesses he was unaware of. Let's not blow this out of proportion. Look at the plan I suggested ... ONE metcon workout, ONE strength workout. In replacement of his "cardio" work.

And yes, I realize we are arguing over terms, cause in reality, you and I have VERY similar training principles.

I'm going to look for a beer keg this weekend and give your workout a shot. What's it weigh with water? And what's a rough estimate on time? I know it's not a race. I have bronchitis, so hopefully I don't die! :D

For you, I guess try the "Fran" workout. It's popular because it's quick, dirty, and not much fun.

21 Thrusters with 95lbs (full front squat followed by push press)
21 Chinups (any grip)
15 Thrusters with 95lbs
15 Chinups (any grip)
9 Thrusters with 95lbs
9 Chinups (any grip)

As fast as you can. Elite would be under 3 minutes, but anything under 5 is good. My personal best is 3:51 (not that it matters, but you can use it as a guage).

And again, none of this is to prove who is better. You gave me the impression that a crossfit metcon workout wouldn't bring any benefit to fighting. I disagree. I just want you to try a sample. If you try it and realize it might benefit you - great. If not, then that's cool too. But I've yet to meet someone who actually tried a metcon workout who didn't admit "yeah, that could certainly help me in the ring."

Just remember, this is a SAMPLE. I do almost the same amount of ME work as a westside routine and it's still Crossfit. Not everything is circuit or "core performance" ... whatever the hell that is. ;)

ericg
10-12-2006, 11:14 AM
Ive been following this thread and i think this sums it up...


...And yes, I realize we are arguing over terms, cause in reality, you and I have VERY similar training principles....

BTW 1 US gallon (of water) is 8.34lbs

I am not sure which one you train with so...

31gallon keg = 259lbs plus the weight of the keg.
15.5gallon keg = 129lbs plus the weight of the keg. (I am pretty sure this is the one, since this is the size that I used to handle when I was a bar back/bouncer)

Dinosaur
10-12-2006, 11:48 AM
The thing that has been frustrating me during this discussion is that you seem to think there's one way to implement a Crossfit routine. The WOD on the main page is an EXAMPLE. It's not perfect. Most of the affiliate gyms do something different. I do something different. Why? Because we all have different strengths, weaknesses, goals, work capacity, etc.

So technically, Crossfit can call itself anything it wants. To be more specific, I am most of the time referring to the WODs and not the principles because as you yourself say there's similar principles in everything.


I don't know everyone who uses Crossfit. I would say it's mostly used by soliders, cops, and fighters. As for football players, there's a kicker on the Vikings who uses Crossfit. Not sure if he's any good, but there's at least one. Olympic weightlifters, the #1 guy in america uses crossfit, but probably not very much (at that level conditioning may interfer with power). Check out www.mikesgym.org for how they blend weightlifting and crossfit.

Soldiers and cops I can understand, as they need to have overall general fitness for everything they do. I know, I'm the first and working on the second. As for the O-lifter himself, his gym may advocate it (it seems with a more O-lifting style approach) but does he himself actually use it for sure? Tough to say. The actual workout he has up is extremely similar to one my own O-lifting coach has made us do, he learned it back when he was lifting for the Soviet Union in the 70's.


Strength/power athletes whose only goal is to move more weight need to be careful on how they incorporate conditioning work. That's no secret. They need some, but not too much. Fighters on the other hand, need a ton. Crossfit is a good way to improve conditioning while using movements outside of their SPP. Hitting the bag all day is fine, but eventually you'll burn out or end up with an overuse injury, just like anything else. Having a method to train your energy systems without encouraging repetitive use injuries is a GOOD thing.

There's a number of different ways you can still increase your fighting skills while doing conditioning however. Shadowboxing is low impact and still gives you the same effect. Try out the Bas Rutten MMA Workout that was just posted before: 10 rounds of fast kicking and punching combinations mixed in with sprawls and similar movements you would find during a fight. If you can do all ten 3-minute rounds, you'll be in great shape for any amateur fight. Working the speed bag may not seem like it aids fighting skills, but it not only gives your upper body a workout by throwing lots of punches but also teaches you how to keep your hands up, timing, rhythm, and hand-eye coordination. If you can do 20-30 minutes straight on a speed bag with the majority of the time it going on, you'll be in even better condition to fight.

With so many sport-related exercises available to individuals, do you honestly need to work on general purpose stuff that won't have as much carryover as the more sport-related ones? This is again back to terms. If I'm a soccer player, running isn't GPP. Running is something I do all the time in the sport. If I'm a high jumper, plyo box jumps are sport-related and not GPP. This is my philosophy on things, and I know it's also that of many other sports professionals. My friend Ozzie has been training individuals for over a decade now, and he shares similar views about Crossfit.


Methods are many, principles are few. Methods always change, principles never do. Of course football players use different methods than fighters and they use different methods than rowers. No one ever argued such. But to limit your strength and conditioning work to sport specific movements? Come on, you know better than that.

You just said before why should a fighter run a couple miles? It's not conditioning for fighting. But now you want to do conditioning work other than that related to fighting? I think both of us might be getting too caught up in this, because that makes no sense.


For his first fight, with only 6 weeks to go, he should be more concerned about conditioning. I'm not saying he should ignore his skill training. No way. But the chances of him improving his skill dramatically in 6 weeks is slim. The chances of improving his conditioning and fighting strong for all rounds? That's a definite possibility. Not to mention it was his original question! LOL! So continue the skill training and consider some alternative conditioning work. My suggestion for replacing a "cardio" workout with a crossfit metcon workout wasn't promoting overtraining. If anything it would help prevent an overuse injury, it would break up the monotony, and it would expose him to a different form of conditioning that may expose some weaknesses he was unaware of. Let's not blow this out of proportion. Look at the plan I suggested ... ONE metcon workout, ONE strength workout. In replacement of his "cardio" work.

I personally see nothing wrong with what he's doing. At six weeks out, by doing a strength workout it's going to take at least 5 weeks for his body to begin to show some kind of gains from it. The last week before the fight he won't be doing much. The gains will be minimal. Afterwards, if he wants to do a proper strength training program, he can go for it.


I'm going to look for a beer keg this weekend and give your workout a shot. What's it weigh with water? And what's a rough estimate on time? I know it's not a race. I have bronchitis, so hopefully I don't die! :D

A half keg weighs about 170 pounds, a quarter keg is 90, and a sixth keg is 60. Unless your press is really strong, I wouldn't try a full half keg.

No real estimate on the time. Finishing is what we want. Just be sure your camera can record a good long session and you don't eat much beforehand. One of the Crossfitters who worked out with me before literally had vomit coming out of his nose because he was trying to hold it in.


For you, I guess try the "Fran" workout. It's popular because it's quick, dirty, and not much fun.

21 Thrusters with 95lbs (full front squat followed by push press)
21 Chinups (any grip)
15 Thrusters with 95lbs
15 Chinups (any grip)
9 Thrusters with 95lbs
9 Chinups (any grip)

Any views on time limit of when you want this in by? I might be able to do this next Friday, as this weekend I have drill and next weekend I have my test preparations for Kyokushin and the police academy physical test.


As fast as you can. Elite would be under 3 minutes, but anything under 5 is good. My personal best is 3:51 (not that it matters, but you can use it as a guage).

I'll try to do it early in the morning then, as my gym is pretty busy and the pull-up bars are over by the dumbbells and machines. I'm pretty sure I won't beat your time being as it's the first time I've done it, but under 5 seems fairly realistic.


And again, none of this is to prove who is better. You gave me the impression that a crossfit metcon workout wouldn't bring any benefit to fighting. I disagree. I just want you to try a sample. If you try it and realize it might benefit you - great. If not, then that's cool too. But I've yet to meet someone who actually tried a metcon workout who didn't admit "yeah, that could certainly help me in the ring."

And you'll most likely see the same with the keg. Both are forms of circuit training, just in different ways. If you were to do a circuit where you blitzed on a heavy bag for 30 seconds, did a take down on your workout partner, grabbed a sandbag and ran it several yards, did some quick combinations on a pair of Thai pads, then ran an agility drill and back to the bag for more of the same, that'd be a circuit too. Better than Crossfit? IMO yes, because it's more suited to fighting than doing the above. Once again however, my opinion.

Dinosaur
10-12-2006, 11:58 AM
Ive been following this thread and i think this sums it up...

Most of this in my eyes seems more a friendly argument than a "You *******!" approach. We've both got different philosophies and just locked horns over it for a second or two there.

Anthony
10-12-2006, 12:13 PM
Most of this in my eyes seems more a friendly argument than a "You *******!" approach. We've both got different philosophies and just locked horns over it for a second or two there.

Yeah, I don't have any hard feelings at all. I know you're a smart guy with good strength and conditioning. And we'd probably train very well together. But I've seen first hand the improvements in my strength and conditioning from crossfit that carried over into my fighting ... so I gotta defend it a little bit. :moon:

Anyway, enough of that. On to the challenge.

To clarify:

90lbs Keg Ground to Right Shoulder, 25 reps
90lbs Keg Ground to Left Shoulder, 25 reps
90lbs Keg Squats Right Shoulder, 50 reps
90lbs Keg Squats Left Shoulder, 50 reps
90lbs Keg Cleans, 35 reps
90lbs Keg Press, 10 reps, military press will be more stable
90lbs Keg Bear Hug for time, no interlocking fingers, no balancing on hips

Not for time, just finish without dying. My camera gets about 45 minutes, hopefully I finish before it runs out. :alcoholic

Dinosaur
10-12-2006, 12:51 PM
Same with mine, hence the headbutting ;)

And that's it to a T. My camera isn't as nice, it can do about 60 seconds without audio then it has to store and then can record again, so there will be some splits here and there but I'll try to get most of it.

Anthony
10-12-2006, 01:14 PM
Cool, no prob on the video. Get what you can, but I trust you'll be honest.

I had to hunt for a keg, most places around here are forced to return them to the brewery and the homebrew place has plastic ones??

Anyway, found a small little brewery in town that has some old 58L / 15.5 gallon kegs and he's willing to part with them for $10 each. Sweet! If anything, I owe you for forcing me to finally get a keg. It's been on the list for awhile, just been too lazy to hunt one down. Challenges usually get me off my ass. :p

Right now I'm planning to do this Saturday afternoon, bronchitis or not!

Dinosaur
10-12-2006, 01:31 PM
Cool, no prob on the video. Get what you can, but I trust you'll be honest.

I had to hunt for a keg, most places around here are forced to return them to the brewery and the homebrew place has plastic ones??

Anyway, found a small little brewery in town that has some old 58L / 15.5 gallon kegs and he's willing to part with them for $10 each. Sweet! If anything, I owe you for forcing me to finally get a keg. It's been on the list for awhile, just been too lazy to hunt one down. Challenges usually get me off my ass. :p

Right now I'm planning to do this Saturday afternoon, bronchitis or not!

I figured the keg workout would be the best, as not only is it probably the best for you since it doesn't require a bunch of specialized equipment or big rocks or similar stuff, you'd also get some use out of it.

And I bet my buddy $20 who's going to be timing me I can get it in under 6 minutes for my first try, so he'll be timing strictly ;)

Reala
10-12-2006, 03:39 PM
Okiez, so guys... not sure how you do yourworkouts, but from your photos you both look hugely built :P

I fight at 155 pounds (11 stone) and don't really lift weights (yet) when I do I usually do 3 sets of 10 reps, I think my bench when doing this is about 45KG and my max (like 1 rep) is 60KG... so I am not really 'that' strong.

Any chance you guys could recommend me maybe a 3/4 day a week program that will fit with my martial arts and cardio, which will actually work to increase my strength? I am trying to work out a decent plyrometric workout... for speed.

Think I have the cardio covered for now... speed and strength needed though!

Dinosaur
10-12-2006, 09:58 PM
Okiez, so guys... not sure how you do yourworkouts, but from your photos you both look hugely built :P

I fight at 155 pounds (11 stone) and don't really lift weights (yet) when I do I usually do 3 sets of 10 reps, I think my bench when doing this is about 45KG and my max (like 1 rep) is 60KG... so I am not really 'that' strong.

Any chance you guys could recommend me maybe a 3/4 day a week program that will fit with my martial arts and cardio, which will actually work to increase my strength? I am trying to work out a decent plyrometric workout... for speed.

Think I have the cardio covered for now... speed and strength needed though!

This is what I think a decent routine is:

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=86111

I'd stay away from doing the Wednesday workout for a while and instead do only the first two to start.

Dinosaur
10-12-2006, 10:00 PM
BtW Anthony, quick question on the thrusters: does the push press start from the bottom of the front squat or do you have to squat, go up, then push press? Want to make sure I'm doing them correctly. I'm going to play around with the form tomorrow a bit to get a feel for them.

1mmort4l
10-13-2006, 01:59 AM
Yeah, I don't have any hard feelings at all. I know you're a smart guy with good strength and conditioning. And we'd probably train very well together. But I've seen first hand the improvements in my strength and conditioning from crossfit that carried over into my fighting ... so I gotta defend it a little bit. :moon:

Anyway, enough of that. On to the challenge.

To clarify:

90lbs Keg Ground to Right Shoulder, 25 reps
90lbs Keg Ground to Left Shoulder, 25 reps
90lbs Keg Squats Right Shoulder, 50 reps
90lbs Keg Squats Left Shoulder, 50 reps
90lbs Keg Cleans, 35 reps
90lbs Keg Press, 10 reps, military press will be more stable
90lbs Keg Bear Hug for time, no interlocking fingers, no balancing on hips

Not for time, just finish without dying. My camera gets about 45 minutes, hopefully I finish before it runs out. :alcoholic

Thsi should be pretty SWEET! Cant wait for the vids! good stuff..

Anthony
10-13-2006, 03:10 AM
BtW Anthony, quick question on the thrusters: does the push press start from the bottom of the front squat or do you have to squat, go up, then push press? Want to make sure I'm doing them correctly. I'm going to play around with the form tomorrow a bit to get a feel for them.

squat, go up, then press, one smooth continuous motion. I have a few thruster vids kicking around my journal if you want to check them out.

dav619
10-13-2006, 05:22 AM
:lurk: Anyone else looking forward to this??

Great reading guys, I can't wait to see the vids!!:D

Bohizzle
10-13-2006, 06:33 AM
BtW Anthony, quick question on the thrusters: does the push press start from the bottom of the front squat or do you have to squat, go up, then push press? Want to make sure I'm doing them correctly. I'm going to play around with the form tomorrow a bit to get a feel for them.
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html check out the fran vid or the thrusters vid.

Andrew

Reala
10-13-2006, 07:40 AM
wow... I don't like that kind of bar lifting... I worry about shooting my back out. I also worry I will drop the bar and crack my skull...

Isn't there a workout where I can just use machines and free weights... I hate those huge barbell things.... they scare the crap out of me... I don't even think my gym has them to be honest.

Dinosaur
10-13-2006, 08:00 AM
Thanks for the links, guys :thumbup:

Anthony
10-13-2006, 08:40 AM
wow... I don't like that kind of bar lifting... I worry about shooting my back out. I also worry I will drop the bar and crack my skull...

Isn't there a workout where I can just use machines and free weights... I hate those huge barbell things.... they scare the crap out of me... I don't even think my gym has them to be honest.

Machines are great if you want to develop faulty movement patterns and get less bang for your buck. Not so bad if all you care about is looking pretty, but as an athlete, you should stay very far away from them.

A barbbell IS free weight. Anything not bolted to the floor or attached to cables is free weight - barbells, dumbbells, sandbags, rocks, kettlebells, etc.

Learn to love them, because they are staples in strength routines.

The key is starting low and work your way up. Did you start competing in kickboxing your first day? Nope, you were taught basics, conditioned, introduced to sparring, etc. Everything was a gradual increase. Same with strength training.

Bob
10-13-2006, 10:16 AM
Damn.. this is top ten thread..
Anthony and Dinosaur.. your "battle" has been awesome to read.. Strongman, Crossfit, PL'ing, KBs, BJJ and OL'ing have rejuvenated this old man over the last year.. and though I'm not as in shape as you 2 freaks.. I've got goals simliar to both of you...

Thank you both for validation of being somewhere in between both of you.. but at the same time.. being in the same place.. old school, fit, athletic and strong!

Can't wait for those videos and time.. let's see if any other WBB'ers can do it.. I'll give the keg WO a try when I recover from this torn bicep (from trying to flip a 850 tire.. lol)

Reala
10-13-2006, 11:09 AM
See... I make awesome threads :zipit: But actually being serious, my threads quite often go off topic :D I have also enjoyed the advice from both Anthony and Dinosaur, and it is refreshing to see two people who no so much disagreeing on certain things... you get a lot more facts =)

I acutally did spar on my first day =P But that is kind of my mentality... I am pretty impatient and want to learn everything right away :P :D Sorry, by free weights I meant Dumbbells, maybe I will try bars or whatever they are called, but I worry about the technique...

Anthony, can I ask in that case, what leg workout do you do if you don't use machines? Are squats considered legs? I guess they could be, although I thought they were core / back?

Thanks for the great advice so far =)

Anthony
10-14-2006, 02:00 PM
KEG PARTY UPDATE

I picked up two kegs yesterday afternoon for $10/each. Sweet! I invited my girlfriend Jodi and my friend Cory to try out the workout, and of course they both jumped at the opportunity. ;)

So this afternoon we went to the park, beautiful day, sunny and about 12*C ... perfect weather for training.

I used a 90lbs keg - half my body weight. Jodi used a 31lbs keg - she weighed in at 104.5 this morning. And Cory used 75lbs - not sure how much he weighs, but probably around 220 @ 6'5.

Jodi stormed through in about 24 minutes. She barely broke a sweat and said afterwards she should use more water in the keg next time. Must have been nice! The bear hug was way too light, so she didn't time it.

I took a bit longer and finished in about 40 minutes. The squats were the hardest - the sets were broken, sorry Dino!! Anyway, considering I still have bronchitis and this was the first time I've ever seen a keg in person, let alone train with one, I'm pretty happy with my workout. If I was 100% healthy I think I could get this down to 30-35 minutes without too much trouble. Oh, and my bear hug was pathetic at 33 seconds, LOL. A couple practise runs and I'm confident I could bump that up to 2+ minutes.

Cory was up next, using 75lbs. After he finished the first 25 squats he questioned whether he would finish. But he's a trooper and crossed the finish line at 1 hour. His bear hug was pretty good at 1 minute. Damn him and his 6'5 arms!

Overall, awesome workout. I'm EXTREMELY pleased that I have a couple of kegs to play with. And next year when we get the gym going I'll be heading down to the brewery to pick up a few more. :D

We did record the entire workout on video, but it's over 950mb. That would probably take an hour to upload, an hour to download, and then another 40 minutes for you to watch. So when I get some time, I'll take a few clips from it and compile something into a more reasonable file size.

Thanks Dino!! I hope you enjoy Fran as much as I enjoyed this!

Anthony
10-14-2006, 02:03 PM
Anthony, can I ask in that case, what leg workout do you do if you don't use machines? Are squats considered legs? I guess they could be, although I thought they were core / back?

I don't really think in terms of "leg workout" or "back workout" or "core workout" ... I just focus on the main movements your body was designed for:

1) Squats
2) Deadlifts
3) Lunges
4) Pressing
5) Pulling

The first three will hit your legs pretty hard, along with your posterior chain and core.

clawhammer_33
10-14-2006, 02:31 PM
Where did you get the kegs? Regular Brewery?

Also, how much do you vary your metcon workouts? Is there a system to it, or just by feel?

Anthony
10-14-2006, 02:35 PM
claw, I got mine from a small local brewery. He had some old ones that weren't usable anymore, so he let them go for cheap. Just call around and I'm sure someone will point you in the right direction.

As for the metcon stuff, it's pretty much random.

g00dnick
10-14-2006, 11:21 PM
I was supposed to fight in September, but I ended up having to get surgery and had to pull out. You already have a lot of good information in this thread...all I have to say is get in as much sparring time as possible. When you are actually fighting, it is much different than just doing bag and pad work...**** even light sparring. I could do plently of rounds of bag/pad work and cardio (running, pushups, squats, etc.) with no problem, but sparring hard for just a few rounds would take a toll on me...

Reala
10-15-2006, 05:11 AM
Well, I think I will work with the cardio / stretching / technique now, and then after the fight get strength training following some of anthonys advice and seeing if I can get hold of one of those barbells... :P

1mmort4l
10-15-2006, 07:09 AM
KEG PARTY UPDATE

I picked up two kegs yesterday afternoon for $10/each. Sweet! I invited my girlfriend Jodi and my friend Cory to try out the workout, and of course they both jumped at the opportunity. ;)

So this afternoon we went to the park, beautiful day, sunny and about 12*C ... perfect weather for training.

I used a 90lbs keg - half my body weight. Jodi used a 31lbs keg - she weighed in at 104.5 this morning. And Cory used 75lbs - not sure how much he weighs, but probably around 220 @ 6'5.

Jodi stormed through in about 24 minutes. She barely broke a sweat and said afterwards she should use more water in the keg next time. Must have been nice! The bear hug was way too light, so she didn't time it.

I took a bit longer and finished in about 40 minutes. The squats were the hardest - the sets were broken, sorry Dino!! Anyway, considering I still have bronchitis and this was the first time I've ever seen a keg in person, let alone train with one, I'm pretty happy with my workout. If I was 100% healthy I think I could get this down to 30-35 minutes without too much trouble. Oh, and my bear hug was pathetic at 33 seconds, LOL. A couple practise runs and I'm confident I could bump that up to 2+ minutes.

Cory was up next, using 75lbs. After he finished the first 25 squats he questioned whether he would finish. But he's a trooper and crossed the finish line at 1 hour. His bear hug was pretty good at 1 minute. Damn him and his 6'5 arms!

Overall, awesome workout. I'm EXTREMELY pleased that I have a couple of kegs to play with. And next year when we get the gym going I'll be heading down to the brewery to pick up a few more. :D

We did record the entire workout on video, but it's over 950mb. That would probably take an hour to upload, an hour to download, and then another 40 minutes for you to watch. So when I get some time, I'll take a few clips from it and compile something into a more reasonable file size.

Thanks Dino!! I hope you enjoy Fran as much as I enjoyed this!


Nice work Anthony! Jodi too! You guys are going to have some freaky kids.. heheh :p

Cant wait for the vid. I might give something similar a shot, see how i go. Maybe i can start to train using these types of methods more.
Thanks mate..

Anthony
10-15-2006, 10:52 AM
Okay, I really had to compress the video to get something I could upload. It's not the greatest, but I don't have time to screw around with it anymore. Take it or leave it. :p

Keg Party Video (http://www.wannabebig.com/vids/Anthony%20and%20Jodi%20-%20Keg%20Party%20-%202006.10.14.wmv)

It's about 22mb and 4.5 minutes.

MixmasterNash
10-15-2006, 11:50 AM
Use google video or youtube, foo!

Reala
10-15-2006, 02:28 PM
Damned impressive... I would worry about back injuries though. I think I need to concentrate on getting stronger before I go for the whole 'keg' workout thing lol.

UFC 54 (First UK airing) is on soon, can't wait... see what I can pick up from that... :P Doing Jujitsu training once a week at the moment, really enjoying it. I think you need quite a bit of strength for that in your wrists... any one got any methods to exercise grip and wrist strength (Will ignore childish answers :P)

Dinosaur
10-15-2006, 08:45 PM
Overall, awesome workout. I'm EXTREMELY pleased that I have a couple of kegs to play with. And next year when we get the gym going I'll be heading down to the brewery to pick up a few more. :D

We did record the entire workout on video, but it's over 950mb. That would probably take an hour to upload, an hour to download, and then another 40 minutes for you to watch. So when I get some time, I'll take a few clips from it and compile something into a more reasonable file size.

Thanks Dino!! I hope you enjoy Fran as much as I enjoyed this!

Glad you liked it :thumbup: Fran should be up Friday as it looks like. How do you feel being the day after?

Dinosaur
10-15-2006, 08:46 PM
I think you need quite a bit of strength for that in your wrists... any one got any methods to exercise grip and wrist strength (Will ignore childish answers :P)

The same keg workout ;) The sloshing water and awkwardness build good wrist strength. Once you can do all 10+ presses with a full keg, you will have some extremely strong wrists.

Anthony
10-16-2006, 05:15 AM
Glad you liked it :thumbup: Fran should be up Friday as it looks like. How do you feel being the day after?

Spinal erectors and quads are a bit stiff in the morning, but once I get moving I'm good to go (thank you foam roller!) Although my recovery has been **** lately, so I'm curious if I'd feel anything if I was 100%.

You should do well at Fran - I wouldn't be surprised if you're sub 5. Let me know how it goes.

Oh, btw, what do you use to plug the kegs? The brewery gave me some wooden plugs, but they are one shot deals. I tried duct tape, but it eventually starts to leak.

Dinosaur
10-17-2006, 11:16 AM
Spinal erectors and quads are a bit stiff in the morning, but once I get moving I'm good to go (thank you foam roller!) Although my recovery has been **** lately, so I'm curious if I'd feel anything if I was 100%.

You should do well at Fran - I wouldn't be surprised if you're sub 5. Let me know how it goes.

Oh, btw, what do you use to plug the kegs? The brewery gave me some wooden plugs, but they are one shot deals. I tried duct tape, but it eventually starts to leak.

Mine leak too, it's just one of those things. I don't seal them up as the weights are always changing, sometimes I'll max it and work out with it for a while doing what I can, other times I'll drop the weight and do higher-rep stuff.

Friday seems the best for me, since for the Army I'm only teaching classes this weekend.

KingJustin
10-18-2006, 11:50 PM
This was a pretty interesting thread. When I read about the keg workout in Anthony's journal, I actually thought it was a Crossfit WOD.

I think both Dinosaur and Anthony both have some strong points, but as was pointed out earlier, they really are just both right and just arguing over terms. That said, I have my own disagreements with both of you!

First, I train MMA, and I think Dinosaur's point that I'd improve in MMA by doing WOD-like workouts, but replacing the exercises with MMA exercises is very solid. As long as I'm not just hitting the bag a million times a day and I'm doing a good mix of exercises, I don't see any benefit that more general exercises have in preparing for MMA.

At the same time, by mixing stuff up and really varying your exercises, it helps your ability to take on anything VS just MMA stuff. But, in that sense you're arguing general skills VS specific skills.

Also, I don't buy into the fact that a workout that uses strictly MMA exercises to get a high heart rate and all that follows all the crossfit principles. If such a workout is performed notably often, it is not following the Crossfit principle of "constantly varied," so I don't think it really falls under the (very broad) Crossfit principles.

BUT, all that said, I think Dinosaur did fail to follow his own principles when prescribing advice to the OP:

^^For a fight?

Shadowbox, bagwork, focus mitts, rope-skipping, and light sparring. Jog in the morning, HIIT at night. Train several times a week, get plenty of sleep, and make sure you'll make weight. You'll be fine.
Aside from the morning jog being, imo, almost worthless (I hate that low intensity crap and I don't think it helps fighters at all), it definitely is not sport-specific at all.

And, one more thing that I'd like to comment on:

You can try to train to do more pull-ups by doing lat pulldowns and other exercises, but it's inferior to actually going and doing more pull-ups. If I want to get better at lifting a 280# rock, I'll go and lift it more. If I want to be able to squat more weight, I'll work my squat harder. See where I'm coming from?Ok, I agree with the general philosophy here and all. BUT, if you just want to squat 1,000 pounds, you're not going to be doing it by just squatting. Dinosaur, you seem to pretty well accept Westside as a great way to powerlift. But, the last thing they recommend is doing nothing but squats to improve their squats. They do good mornings, glute-ham raises, reverse hypers, etc, etc. Would you agree that someone who does nothing but bench press is going to tend to do worse in a bench press competition than someone who trains Metal Militia style?

That all said ... why? I am pretty sure that the CNS would get burnt out from doing the same exercises super-often. But, does the same principle apply to "If you want more endurance for throwing punches, throw more punches. If you want to be able to roll longer, roll more"? Is the effect on the CNS just so different? Also, do you think weight training is useful at all for MMA?

I'm not being sarcastic when I ask any of this. I think this is an interesting topic.

To be clear, my current stance is that to improve MMA, it is ideal to do MMA-movements as opposed to more general movements, but that you need to switch among a small variety of MMA movements. Part of the reason for this, however, is not just the conditioning improvements, but that you'll improve your power, skill, speed and fluency in the movement as opposed to just your conditioning. This is arguably contrary to CrossFit principles, but not a total jump. BUT, I also think improving strength and building muscle in the weight room is important for MMA, and that sort of is GPP, yeah?

Anthony
10-19-2006, 06:12 AM
Good post.

I view three major aspects of sport.

Skill is impoved by practising sport specific movements, competition, etc.

Strength is improved by weightlifting, powerlifting, etc.

Conditioning can be gained with a combination of sport specific movements, strength movements, sprinting, etc.

The point I was trying to make originally is that if you understand what you're trying to accomplish (strength or conditioning) then it's okay to use something that is not sport specific. The conditioning you build from sprinting will have carry over into your fighting. Not everything is about movement patterns or skills ... energy systems can be trained through any number of movements within SPP and GPP. My argument was that ONLY using SPP is a good way to tire out your CNS and/or promote overuse injuries. Throwing something different in (like a keg workout) is a good way to correct imbalances, hit your CNS from a different angle, and still work your energy systems.

If that makes sense. :D

Reala
10-19-2006, 09:20 AM
So... do we have a 3/4/5 day a week workout for mma and one for kickboxing yet?

or do we still not know which is best?

Anthony
10-19-2006, 09:26 AM
There's no single solution. Use whatever combination of skill practise / strength work / conditioning work that YOU need to improve.

Dinosaur
10-19-2006, 09:50 AM
Aside from the morning jog being, imo, almost worthless (I hate that low intensity crap and I don't think it helps fighters at all), it definitely is not sport-specific at all.

The jog is mostly used as a warm-up for a lot of fighters that do it, because they typically train in the morning. I didn't clarify really, and it got lost in the argument, so this was a good point to bring up.


And, one more thing that I'd like to comment on:
Ok, I agree with the general philosophy here and all. BUT, if you just want to squat 1,000 pounds, you're not going to be doing it by just squatting. Dinosaur, you seem to pretty well accept Westside as a great way to powerlift. But, the last thing they recommend is doing nothing but squats to improve their squats. They do good mornings, glute-ham raises, reverse hypers, etc, etc. Would you agree that someone who does nothing but bench press is going to tend to do worse in a bench press competition than someone who trains Metal Militia style?

See, that's where I tend to feel that is sport-specific though. If you're doing specific things to improve your squat for powerlifting, in my eyes that's sport specific. I don't tell people to just spar to get good at fighting, I tell them to do other things as well, like the heavy bag and Thai pads and shadowboxing. To me, that stuff is sport-specific and not just general stuff.


Also, do you think weight training is useful at all for MMA?

This is a tricky question as there are some fighters who do exceptionally well without weights and some who don't. Muhammad Ali, for example, never used weight training. Carlos Newton does a gymnastic routine that worked very well for him. What I think about weight training gets rather complicated, but I personally feel that everyone should.

As for the CNS burnout, if one is training in different intensities, you can often do things more often than you normally could. One of the Canadians I competed against several months ago did singles for rack pulls seven days a week for a few months and added over 200 pounds to his deadlift (I think he's pulling high 5's raw now at a BW of 175). There are guys who literally train every day but approach it in a manner of "practicing the movement" more than building muscle. This too can get complicated, but if you want to look more into this I'd check out either "Rock Iron Steel" by Steve Justa or "Power to the People!" by Pavel Tsautouline.


To be clear, my current stance is that to improve MMA, it is ideal to do MMA-movements as opposed to more general movements, but that you need to switch among a small variety of MMA movements. Part of the reason for this, however, is not just the conditioning improvements, but that you'll improve your power, skill, speed and fluency in the movement as opposed to just your conditioning. This is arguably contrary to CrossFit principles, but not a total jump. BUT, I also think improving strength and building muscle in the weight room is important for MMA, and that sort of is GPP, yeah?

You definitely need variety, but all of it should be related in some how or some way IMO. The running in the morning, for example, builds an aerobic base, which if you train solely for anaerobic and not aerobic as well, you do sacrifice some stamina. By training both you actually compliment the other and can improve both. Running also helps you think about your breathing (which is important) and in the case of fighters running with a mouth-piece in lets you get used to breathing hard with one in so you don't lose it during the fight. You can also shadowbox Rocky-style, do intervals (sprint-jog-sprint-jog), or do a Fartlek where you would run for a certain amount of time, then say shadowbox for a minute, then run for a certain time, then sprawl for a minute, then run, then hit the focus pads say, etc. etc.

Dinosaur
10-19-2006, 09:51 AM
There's no single solution. Use whatever combination of skill practise / strength work / conditioning work that YOU need to improve.

This is probably the best thing said yet. The only problem is when you try to make others believe the same ideas :ninja:

Reala
10-19-2006, 11:06 AM
Well I want to improve punching speed/power (I'm guessing plyometrics?) and strength for MMA... but I don't really know how to practice ground strength.

And the answer of 'do whatever works' sucks because it will take forwever to find what works :P

Anthony
10-19-2006, 11:11 AM
Why will it take forever? You have three areas to test: skill, strength, conditioning. Which is the weak link? Fix it.

KingJustin
10-19-2006, 11:12 AM
The point I was trying to make originally is that if you understand what you're trying to accomplish (strength or conditioning) then it's okay to use something that is not sport specific. The conditioning you build from sprinting will have carry over into your fighting. Not everything is about movement patterns or skills ... energy systems can be trained through any number of movements within SPP and GPP. My argument was that ONLY using SPP is a good way to tire out your CNS and/or promote overuse injuries. Throwing something different in (like a keg workout) is a good way to correct imbalances, hit your CNS from a different angle, and still work your energy systems.Ok, I follow you here and all, and I agree for the most part with you. You can definitely be conditioned to be a good boxer (in other words, be able to go rounds) without focusing all your cardio on boxing. I also agree that doing the very same movements all the time may end up wearing out your CNS.

BUT, I think it might be more effective to train strictly sport-specific movements if you can inject enough variety. I still like the principle of high intensity and such, but I don't see what downfall the sport-specific has. You are getting the best of both worlds: the same conditioning as more general movements, but you are also training your energy systems, improving technique, rhythm, etc.

And yeah, I know you can train GPP and do sport-specific stuff, too, but I don't see any relative benefit for someone that just cares about a specific sport.



This is a tricky question as there are some fighters who do exceptionally well without weights and some who don't. Muhammad Ali, for example, never used weight training. Carlos Newton does a gymnastic routine that worked very well for him. Yeah, I think some of the guys I train with mentioned Anderson Silva doesn't weight train, and look at him! But I think we're still on the same page on this. There's some guys that have great results without weight training, but that doesn't mean it's not ideal. I also think Gymnastics training is similar enough to strength training, it just happens to focus a lot more on bodyweight exercises.


The running in the morning, for example, builds an aerobic base, which if you train solely for anaerobic and not aerobic as well, you do sacrifice some stamina. By training both you actually compliment the other and can improve both. Running also helps you think about your breathing (which is important) and in the case of fighters running with a mouth-piece in lets you get used to breathing hard with one in so you don't lose it during the fight.
This makes me think that you support GPP in any interpretation of the word. Running definitely isn't the only way to improve aerobic ability. I'm sure there are more sport-specific ways to do it. You can definitely roll or spar for 25-30 minutes and build your aerobic base, plus you get the obvious other benefits.

I think a lot of this comes down to maximal efficiency. CrossFit and GPP will work, and will train someone to have good conditioning and so forth. But, elite athletes always need to strive for efficiency. There's only so many hours each day that your body can work without overtraining. If you can effectively combine skill training and conditioning training, rather than doing them all seperately, then you have a little more time each day to work on your weaknesses (skill, strength, or conditioning).

Anthony
10-19-2006, 11:33 AM
(1) I think it might be more effective to train strictly sport-specific movements

...

(2) I don't see any relative benefit for someone that just cares about a specific sport.

...

(3) There's some guys that have great results without weight training, but that doesn't mean it's not ideal.

1 & 2 don't match up with 3.

If you are fighting, everything outside of fist, feet, knees, elbows, clinch, takedowns, wrestling, submissions, etc. is GPP. That means sprints are GPP. Squats are GPP. Overhead press is GPP. Everything that improves your strength and conditioning, but is not directly related to something you do in the ring is GPP.

:strong:

KingJustin
10-19-2006, 11:49 AM
Hah, I knew I was contradicting myself a bit there.

Let me make this disinction: I think strength training is ideally done with weight lifting, although I think that you should, to some extent, use some MMA-like movements. I think Alwyn Cosgrove addresses this.

But, that's strength. I don't think it's the least bit realistic to improve max strength by doing MMA movements (with weight or whatever).

Conditioning is different, though. For MMA at least, it's realistic enough to improve conditioning by doing MMA movements. Some sports might not line up this way (ie rowing?), but if you can reasonably use a variety of sport-specific movements, I think it's ideal.

So, I guess I'm not altogether anti-GPP. But, when feasible, if you can do a variety of sport-specific movements, I think you should. That would mean that I'm kind of anti-sprints for MMA.

Anthony
10-19-2006, 12:04 PM
I hear what you're saying. And if you have enough variety to prevent overuse injury and hit your CNS with different patterns, you'll do well. Sorta. You may do well in the short term for your sport, but your longevity is decreased by too much specializing.

I personally like a mix of both. If I spend two hours skill training, I sure as hell don't want to spend another 30-60 minutes using the same movements for my conditioning! :P

KingJustin
10-19-2006, 12:22 PM
You may do well in the short term for your sport, but your longevity is decreased by too much specializing.
Why is longevity decreased?

Also, I actually really like CrossFit and its principles for me, personally. I like MMA, but my real goal is improving general physical ability. MMA just happens to be a good way for me to compete. As a general athlete, I'm going to/already do incorporate some of it in my workouts. As a matter of fact, I might be asking your advice sometime soon on how to incorporate it further!

Anthony
10-19-2006, 12:30 PM
Why is longevity decreased?
The more you specialize, the less time you spend on keeping things balanced. Eventually that imbalance will catch up to you in the form of injury, plateau, etc. Powerlifters are an excellent example of this. A lot of them sacrafice everything for bigger numbers, but eventually they get plagued with injuries and are forced to quit, rehab, or **** themselves up worse. Not attacking powerlifters, I love them, but there's gotta be balance. Do I think they need to do the splits and run a 4 minute mile? No. "Balance" is different for all sports, but essentially boils down to "what is going to keep me injury free, healthy, and performing my best for the longest period of time." GPP is gonna help bring that balance.


Also, I actually really like CrossFit and its principles for me, personally. I like MMA, but my real goal is improving general physical ability. MMA just happens to be a good way for me to compete. As a general athlete, I'm going to/already do incorporate some of it in my workouts. As a matter of fact, I might be asking your advice sometime soon on how to incorporate it further!

Anytime!

KingJustin
10-19-2006, 12:41 PM
Very good point, I'll buy into that.

Dinosaur
10-19-2006, 02:20 PM
This makes me think that you support GPP in any interpretation of the word. Running definitely isn't the only way to improve aerobic ability. I'm sure there are more sport-specific ways to do it. You can definitely roll or spar for 25-30 minutes and build your aerobic base, plus you get the obvious other benefits.

I personally think running is one of the best for fighters as you're on your feet, where most standup fighters are. Running is also easier to incorporate a Fartlek routine as I mentioned, as it would be tougher for you to have to unstrap yourself from say a rowing machine every so often to go do something sport-specific. This was only one example too, you could do rope-skipping and the above skills, or swim a pool length, hop out, and do some combinations on Thai pads then swim back, hop out, hit a shield for a bit, then hop in and repeat. It can be any form of cardio, it just should also incorporate what you're trying to do the cardio for. Sparring or rolling should definitely take precedence, depending on what you do. But yes I see what you mean.

Reala
10-19-2006, 03:05 PM
Why will it take forever? You have three areas to test: skill, strength, conditioning. Which is the weak link? Fix it.

I told you that in my first post :P Conditioning I already have a fitness plan for, I am working though, VERY tiring, but I am working on it. Basically it is hitting the bag for 6 x 3 minutes, then a 30 minute workout of shadow boxing, squats, push ups, sit ups, etc, etc (you get the picture).

As for skill I am training kickboxing 6 hours a week now in total, and MMA I am training 4 hours a week. I think that should cover the skill element pretty well... works out about 2 hours a day, 5 days a week.

For strength I am currently doing '0', which is why I wanted a pretty decent workout. I have been suggested a few, but then straight after another person says "That ain't no good" lol. Any way all of you guys can agree on a workout that will help me for my MMA and kickboxing strength?

Thanks :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

KingJustin
10-19-2006, 03:27 PM
I don't think you can gain any functional strength before your first competition. That's not to say that strength training is worthless -- I think it's really helpful --- but you won't really get anywhere in 6 weeks.

Reala
10-19-2006, 03:53 PM
I am on about long-term now sorry, not my fight :P

It has been put back to December 10th anyway... but even then I don't think I could improve strength a great deal by then?

Any way, looking for longterm plan now ;)

KingJustin
10-19-2006, 09:47 PM
I am on about long-term now sorry, not my fight :P

It has been put back to December 10th anyway... but even then I don't think I could improve strength a great deal by then?

Any way, looking for longterm plan now ;)
Read all the relevant articles here:
http://www.veloforce.net/Articles.html

And then even though this pretty well contradicts everything I've said here, I like this workout a lot:
http://elitefts.com/documents/mma2.htm

Be sure to stretch a bunch.

Honestly, if it were me (and I guess it sort of is, since I'm doing the same thing!), I would try really hard to establish a good strength/muscle base, and then after an extended period of time, I'd try to start working on my conditioning a bit more. Skill training should be a priority all the way through.

BUT, keep in mind that right before a fight you're not going to put on much strength or muscle. That takes time. You can improve your cardio pretty quick, though.

1mmort4l
10-20-2006, 01:19 AM
I am on about long-term now sorry, not my fight :P

It has been put back to December 10th anyway... but even then I don't think I could improve strength a great deal by then?

Any way, looking for longterm plan now ;)


Ha, ok, now that i have read all the posts by Anthony and Dino i can rest.... :windup:

For me, i find that you need to focus on getting yourself to an adequate level of strength. This is what you decide, where you feel the most comfortable etc. not what someone else preaches. Once you have attained a level of skill it is much easier to return to that point if you have time out etc.. So, what i would do (after my fight) is to do a majority strength orientated routine until i reach "my adequate level" then i would bring the other aspecs back into it.
I'm actually doing this at the moment, but im enjoying weights so much lately that i will probably end up with 70% weights and the rest MMA training.

twcolabear
10-20-2006, 04:36 PM
I don't do kickboxing, but I do taekwondo, so I guess it's close enough. What everyone suggested is excellent, jogging, jump rope etc...

I do TKD sparring competitions, so here are my suggestions for your actual day.
Get plenty of sleep the night before and eat a good breakfast.
As you will most likely be nervous/excited once you get in the ring you may find yourself suddenly drawing blank on everything you've learned, but don't worry just get in there and fight. Nervousness goes away with experience. Unfortunately you can't simulate the experience in your studio and only way to get it is to enter competitions. My Master (in broken English) says 2months in studio equals 1 competition. Also if you have a buddy with a video camera please recruit him to tape you, you have no idea how helpful it will be when you evaluate it the next day. Also don't get hurt the night before, so light/mid conditioning/sparring is better than an all out fight and introduction of new stuff.

there is more but I can't think of anything else right now. Good luck and have fun

Dinosaur
10-20-2006, 04:46 PM
Got pushed back to Monday to try the Crossfit workout, I haven't even been able to lift all week myself trying to get ready for drill this weekend. Teaching a big presentation to 100+ people. So Monday I will most likely end up filming the thing in my basement with my workout partner's digital camera.

Reala
10-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Feedback Wanted:

Ok... finally have a weight program sorted out. I went for middle/high reps, I read alot and I mean a lot of arguments between low reps for strength and explosivness versus muscle cardio wise and faster punches. I decdied middle range reps were for me, because I am already 155, so I don't want a huge increase in mass, I want to lean out and increase my stamina / punching speed. Let me know what you think... it sounds quite a lot, but I will probably be doing this in the morning at about 8am/9am and then my cardio / lessons at the end of the day, about 6pm/7pm

Triceps, Biceps and Upper Back Workout - Sunday & Wednesday

Dumbbell Curl 4 x 20
Hammer Curl 4 x 20
Preacher Curl 4 x 10
Cable Curls 4 x 20
Pull-ups 4 x 10
Standing Cable Rows 4 x 20
Sitting Cable Rows 4 x15
Cable Pull Downs 4 x 15
Rope Pull Downs 4 x 15
Lay Down Pullover 4 x 10
Elbow Extensions 4 x 20
Bar Dips 4 x 10

Chest, Shoulders and Lower Back Workout - Monday & Thursday

Dumbbell Fly 4 x 10
Incline Dumbbell Fly 4 x 10
Flat Bench Press 4 x 10
Incline Bench Press 4 x 10
Military Dumbbell Press 4 x 10
Fly Extension 4 x 10
Straight Arm Extension 4 x 10
Back Ups 4 x 15
Back Extension 4 x 15

Leg Workout - Tuesday & Friday

Name of exercise Technique Sets Reps
Weighted Squats 4 x 10
Leg Press 4 x 10
Hamstring Curls 4 x 10
Weighted Lunges 4 x 20
Leg Extensions 4 x 10

Abdominal workout - Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday

Weighted decline hip rotations:
Decline bench with 5 10 pounds on each arm. Switch right weight to left knee, left weight to right knee. 4 sets of 25x2 repetitions.

Ring & medicine ball sit ups:
Medicine ball sit up off the edge of the ring, catching medicine ball as someone throws it to you, as you do a sit up down off the ring, throwing the ball up as you come up. 4 sets of 25 repetitions.

Anthony
10-23-2006, 11:02 AM
No, it's horrible.

I have four major issues.

1) too much work! Strength training 6 days per week is hard for anyone. In fact, most keep it around 3-5 days per week, and that's when they aren't doing anything else. You already train 12 hours per week across 6 days, and now you want to add another 6 hours? That's 3 hours per day! Unless you're a professional fighter or have insane work capacity (you don't), this is over kill and will burn you out fast. You need to find a balance between your strength training, skill training, and conditioning. The program you listed is NOT it! Not to mention if you think you're going to finish 48 sets in less than an hour, it's not a strength workout.

2) poor exercise choices! Out of everything you listed, I might keep 8 exercises.

3) too many exercises per day! Use 3-5 exercises per day - MAX.

4) you're not building strength!! If you want your strength program to build strength, you need to lift heavy things! If you're doing 20 reps, it's not that heavy! Think 1-8 reps.

Reala
10-23-2006, 11:53 AM
Tell that to Tito Ortiz Anthony would be my inital responce :P (Take that as a joke, I appriciate your advice). I got it off his all access thing and his other instructional series he did.

Well... I was thinking I could do my weights at like 9am till 11am and then do my Cardio and kickboxing and MMA after 7pm till about 9pm, I would be alright...? Maybe I will just half it and only do it all once so 3 days a week instead of doing them each twice making 6 days.

I don't think I want strength.. because strength = mass and I currently weight 158 pounds, I fight at 155... so I really cannot afford to gain any mass... I instead need to lean out. I thought higher reps would be more of an advanage for this...?

Reala
10-23-2006, 11:53 AM
When I say 20 reps I mean 10 reps off each arm also.

Do you get what I mean about it not being a strength workout anthony? I weight 158 pounds and my body fat percentage isn't all that high... about 14%/15% I think and I am 5'9 / 5'10. So I really cannot afford to put much mass on, because I will have to go up and my frame is in my opinion 'a big 155 pounder' but I would be a faily average '170 pounder'. I have just cut my weight down from 14 stone, for general fitness and so I could compete at my best level. So really I need to strengthen the mass I already have and lean out more.

Sorry, if I am making no sense at all... I am trying :D

ericg
10-23-2006, 12:07 PM
Strength does NOT equal mass. An excess of calories consumed vs calories expended equals mass.

Shifty
10-23-2006, 12:09 PM
its all about diet. Look at the olympic weightlifters who are lifting massive weights, yet only weigh 60kg. Do they train with 20 reps? No, they train with big weights but keep a very close eye on their diet.

If you made sure that you didn't have to much of a calorie surplus and trained in the 1-5 rep range you would build a lot of strength, with very little muscle mass gain.

Anthony
10-23-2006, 12:10 PM
1) Tito Ortiz can sleep all day, take naps, and has no other responsibilities other than training, eating, and fighting.

2) Tito's strength training sucks, I said so the first time I saw him do it, and I would certainly tell him in person. His conditioning work is awesome, but he needs to get his head out of the bodybuilding magazines in order to maximize his strength potential.

3) Reducing your strength days to 3 days per week would be a good start, but I still suspect you'll burn out prett quick. I also think the exercise choice and layout is horrible. Pick 3-5 compound exercises per day. How many days per week depends on the rest of your routine. If you won't change the rest of your skill/conditioning work, I'd say 1-2 days per week is your max for strength training.

4) You want strength. You just don't understand how or why. Strength DOES NOT equal mass UNLESS you eat for it. I get stronger without gaining weight. So does my girlfriend (in fact, she lost a couple pounds in the process). If you monitor your eating, you can get extremely strong without jumping a weight class.

5) higher reps are good for endurance, but you already get enough of that through your skill/conditioning training. Why on earth do you think you need more? High reps do very little (read: nothing) to lose fat. You need to get a lock on your nutrition, lift heavy things, train intervals ... that's how you lose fat.

Reala
10-23-2006, 12:15 PM
Thanks for that ;) I thought low reps 6-8 etc increase your muscle size and therefore mass... seeing as lean muscle is quite heavy, I thought it would top my over 160 pretty quickly?

Anthony
10-23-2006, 12:17 PM
The only way you'll gain weight is if you eat more calories than you burn.

ericg
10-23-2006, 12:22 PM
Thanks for that ;) I thought low reps 6-8 etc increase your muscle size and therefore mass... seeing as lean muscle is quite heavy, I thought it would top my over 160 pretty quickly?

155lbs at 20% body fat weighs the same as a person who is 155lbs at 10% body fat, who would you rather be? ;)

Dont be overly concerned with your weight at this time since you are right where you want to be. Just monitor it and keep the diet in check so you dont go over. It is damn near impossible to gain weight when your activity and diet stays the same.

Reala
10-23-2006, 12:22 PM
I want strength, but I want strength in the sense I can pin someone down or throw them with my body weight, but at the same time I want to make sure my stand up remains fast and my muscles can punch faster without getting tired (which I was told would happen if I went with low reps).

Well... to be honest mate, my week currently goes university 11 - 3 Wed, Thur, Fri and Work 10-6 Tuesday & Saturday. University all I do all day is listen and write, work all I do all day is sit in an office writing... so I am not exactly tiring myself out ;)

I only eat 1600 - 1800 calories as it is... nearly all of that is tuna / eggs / rivita :D for breakfast & lunch and then for tea I just have whatever is cooked... usually fish, chicken, past with potatoes / baked potatoes and peas or whatever. Drink around 4-5 litres of water a day.

Reala
10-23-2006, 12:24 PM
Ok, so I am kinda confused... any one wanna give me a science lesson or link as to how you get stronger without building muscle? I thought it was all about the size of your muscle that works as resistance to weight?

Anthony
10-23-2006, 12:28 PM
You ask for help and then throw out every myth possible as an excuse not to do it.

So what do you want? A ****ty program you got off Tito's site? Or the strength to throw some bodies around???

You already have the ****ty program! Try it for 3 months and let us know how it goes.

Then come back and we'll point you in the right direction.

:)

ericg
10-23-2006, 12:29 PM
Diet seems pretty good. Are you actually traking your cals or are you guessing? Either way it wont matter much if you are eating consistently the same thing each day. If you find yourself gaining cut back on the portions a bit and so on.

I dont think you will lose any speed with your fighting at all since you are incorporating that into your training. Plus you are not planning on losing or gaining weight so the added bulk is a non issue. You may find yourself doing a bit of recomposition (lose a few lbs of fat and gaining a few lbs of muscle) but that should not hinder your speed in your game at all since you will weigh the same.

Reala
10-23-2006, 12:38 PM
I havn't thrown anythign out at all mate, I am appriciating the help... trust me, I have spent weeks doing research. All I ask is that you justify why I should change something and as long as I agree and research it to be correct then I change it. Anthony, at the end of the day my '****ty' program is gonna be better than no program at all right? Your workout seems very MMA based, which is more strength based... however mine I want to be more based at kickboxing, with aspects from MMA. As I have said, I appriciate the advice and I am enjoying hearing your views... however, nothing about Tito Ortiz is '***ty' ;) :P :D

I tracked my diet for 3 weeks and got the average, I worked out it was never any lower than 1600 and never any higher than 1800. I think average was around 1730 calories when worked out by dividing total by 21.


(lose a few lbs of fat and gaining a few lbs of muscle) but that should not hinder your speed in your game at all since you will weigh the same.

That's that I want to do :P But I got told to do that I should use 10 reps as oposed to 6 reps. As I have already said, I also got told that doing 6 reps will cause you to have explosivness power, but get tired quicker. Maybe I should point you guys to the direction of the article and you can rip it appart :P I will have to find it first :P

Reala
10-23-2006, 12:42 PM
here you go:


2. Weight Training:

Weight training is also key in developing an MMA athlete. It should be simple without too many intensity boosting techniques such as drop sets, rest pause training etc. The reason is because MMA athletes already have tons of other training to do such as cardio, sprint work, plyometrics etc. Making the weight lifting routine extremely high intensity would likely cause an athlete to overtrain.

Weight training is crucial to develop strength and speed in the athlete. For strong kicks, punches, throws, and good ground game you need to develop strong muscles, that's no surprise. Right there some people would make the mistake of doing low rep ranges for strength.

Although that is true, it's not good for MMA. Low rep ranges will train your body to be strong, but you will get very tired easily since low rep ranges works mostly fast twitch muscle fibers. This isn't good for MMA so therefore a rep range of 6-12 is best since it works strength, while still keeping the athlete resistant to fatigue.

Sets should vary according the body part. Rest times should be short 30-60 seconds. Shorter rests mimics MMA since an athlete has to be stand up fighting or wrestling with their opponent constantly for 5 minutes, therefore it prepares you to have more resistance against fatigue.

Weights should be done 3-4 times a week and the workout split can be arranged to suit the athletes needs. Later in the article I will talk about putting the workout together with the other training.

An MMA athlete needs speed, no doubt, and this can be boosted with two weight techniques. They are drop catch movements and explosive reps. Explosive reps are exactly what the name says, on each rep you explode on the concentric phase. This will train the fast twitch fibers to become quicker and therefore making an athlete faster.

The second is drop catch where you literally "Drop" the weight while still holding onto it in the eccentric phase. Next before it falls to the lowest part of the concentric phase you rapidly try to stop the weight. This will train your fast twitch fibers since it quickly requires them to stop the weight during the "Drop" in the concentric phase.

Now you have to know how to apply these to techniques. Obviously it isn't smart to do drop catch on squat because you can easily kill yourself in the process. It's best on things like seated row, chin/pull ups, dips, etc. Explosive reps are best on things like squats, bench press, DB curls etc. Now these two techniques should only be used 2 out of 3 sets for an exercise. For example:

Exercise 1:


Set 1 - Explosive reps or drop catch depending on exercise
Set 2 - Explosive reps or drop catch depending on exercise
Set 3 - Normal speed

You can do this for a couple exercises or all of them. However you can't do this for EVERY workout or else your body will adapt to the technique and progress will go down. Only do this for a couple weeks and cycle off of this technique.

Here's a workout to follow. Later it will be put together with other training in the "Putting it all together" section.

Training split - 3 day split, but the days you workout varies.

Workout 1 - Chest, Back, & Forearms:

Superset between chest and back. Superset between both muscles of forearms

Chest & Back Superset:
Superset 1:

Incline dumbbell bench press - 6-12 reps x 3 sets
Pull ups - 6-12 reps x 3 sets

Superset 2:

Chest variation dips - 6-12 reps x 3 sets
Bent over barbell rows - 6-12 reps x 3 sets

Superset 3:

Flyes - 6-12 reps x 3 sets
Seated row - 6-12 reps x 3 sets

Forearm Superset:
Superset 1:

Palms up wrist curl
Wrist roller

Superset 2:

Palms down wrist curl
Behind the back wrist curls

Workout 2 - Legs, Shoulders - Triset Between All Three Shoulder Heads

Legs:

Barbell squats - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Deadlifts - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Lunges - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Standing calf raises - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Sitting calf raises - 8- 12 reps x 2-3 sets

Shoulder Triset:

Shoulder press - 6-12 reps x 3 sets
Upright rows - 6-12 reps x 3 sets
Bent over lateral raises - 6-12 reps x 3 sets

Workout 3 - Arms (Biceps & triceps), Abs & Lower Back

Superset between arms, triset between upper abs, lower abs, and obliques

Arms Superset:
Superset 1

Close grip bench press - 6-12 reps x 3 sets
Close grip barbell curls - 6-12 reps x 3 sets

Superset 2:

Tricep variation dips - 6-12 reps x 3 sets
Hammer curls - 6-12 reps x 3 sets

Superset 3:

Skull crushers - 6-12 reps x 3 sets
Incline inner biceps curl - 6-12 reps x 3 sets

Abdominal Triset:

Weighted decline crunches - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Leg raises - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Dumbbell side bends - 8-12 reps x 3 sets

Lower Back:

Back extensions - 8-12 reps x 3 sets
Good mornings - 8-12 reps x 3 sets

Reala
10-23-2006, 12:49 PM
another routine - this one twice a week:



Pecs Flat Dumbbell Bench Press 12
Lats Lat Pulldown 12
Delts Dumbbell Lateral Raise 12
Middle Back Seated Cable Row 12
Biceps Dumbbell Curl 12
Triceps Lying EZ-Bar Triceps Extension 12
Quads Leg Press 12
Hamstring Standing Leg Curl 12
Calves Standing Calf Raise 12
Abs Crunch 25

Still high rep, am looking for a low rep one.

I am getting all this from bodybuilding.com by the way... not sure how highly they are rated :S

Anthony
10-23-2006, 01:04 PM
Both routines suck for bodybuilding and kickboxing/fighting.

Not everything thing you do has to mimick what you do in the ring.

If you have a double body weight squat, a triple body weight deadlift, and a single body weight over head press ... that strength will transfer beautifully into your fighting. Will it make you slow or tire out? No, your conditioning work and skill training will keep your energy systems running smoothly.

Stop trying to complicate things.

1) skill train - go practise how to punch and kick.

2) conditioning - work your energy systems by using interval training. combine elements from fighting and/or weightlifting, but don't be too concerned either way.

3) strength - lift heavy things!

4) find a balance between all three. That doesn't mean do them equally, it means find what you're good at and do less of that. Find what you're bad at, and do more of that. Correcting weaknesses will make you a better overall athlete and keep you healthy longer.

That's it bro! I don't mean to bite your head off, but you're making this way more complicated than required.

Reala
10-23-2006, 01:11 PM
OK, can you help me in that case make a 2/3 day strength training routine? I am trying not to make it complicated... Anthony... you havn't even seen my balance / agility / plyometric training yet :D :P

Anthony
10-23-2006, 01:25 PM
lol, yeah.

Here's the exercises you can choose from:

Squats (back, front, overhead, zerchers, etc)
Deadlifts (conventional, sumo, platform, rack, etc)
Lunges (walking, static, reverse, side to side, etc)
Overhead Press (standing)
Dips (bar, rings, etc)
Row (barbell, dumbbell, seated, etc)
Chinups (bar, rings, towel, etc)
Cleans (probably stick with power cleans or deadlift jump shrug)

Maybe throw in bench press once in awhile if you enjoy it.

Pick 1-3 of those per day. MAX. If you pick back squats, don't try to sneak in front squats and overhead squats and count those three exercises as one. I listed the variations for your convenience.

If you picked 1 lower body/posterior chain movement + 1 push movement + 1 pull movement, you'd do well.

Increase your heart rate how ever you want.

Either perform a low weight/high rep full body movement (like a clean and jerk, or overhead squat) for mobility, or perform specific mobility drills.

Now perform 3 sets of 8 reps. If you get all 8 reps, increase the weight by 5-10lbs. Repeat.

I picked 8 reps because I don't know if you're ready to be doing heavy singles and triples yet. But eventually that should be your goal.

For example, 3 sets of 8 reps = 24 reps total.

When you eventually switch to singles and triples, you'll have slightly less volume, but much higher intensity.

8 sets of 3 reps = 24 reps total. Or 8 sets of 1 rep = 8 reps total.

The goal is very simple. More weight on the bar every week. Forget about kickboxing. Forget about plyometrics. Forget about speed. Forget about conditioning. When you're strength training, focus solely on getting stronger.

Reala
10-23-2006, 01:36 PM
Right... time to re-open Microsoft word then :D :P

KingJustin
10-23-2006, 07:40 PM
Yeah, umm, Anthony's routine is about 100x better than that insane thing you listed that Tito does.

Dinosaur
10-24-2006, 11:08 AM
I did the Crossfit workout Anthony wanted me to try out last night. For those of you who are just really hopping in, it was the following:

21 Thrusters with 95lbs (full front squat followed by push press)
21 Chinups (any grip)
15 Thrusters with 95lbs
15 Chinups (any grip)
9 Thrusters with 95lbs
9 Chinups (any grip)

I took a few minutes beforehand to work on those thrusters to get the feel for them, but still didn't really feel comfortable with them until I started doing the set of 15. I had to switch grip during the set of 15 pull-ups too from overhand to a palms facing grip, as I've been focusing mostly on low reps with weight for them lately so they were the part slowing me down the most. The thrusters weren't really bad at all until the last set, it was mostly the pull-ups that slowed me down. Waiting to hear what kind of video my buddy got of it, but as it is I ended up owing him $20 because it actually took me about 6:17 instead of under 5 (most of which I attribute to grinding out the last set of pull-ups).

Fun workout, something new, but the only thing that I think got a major workout was my pull-ups, as I haven't done high reps with them in a while and since I was alternating with thrusters. Definitely a lot slower than I wanted to (about a minute longer than I planned), but not bad.

Anthony
10-24-2006, 11:22 AM
Awesome work Dino! I'm a little surprised you weren't under 6 (or even under 5), but a few shots and I'm sure you could rip this apart.

Now just imagine doing it in 2:37. OUCH!

ElPietro
10-24-2006, 11:37 AM
Why limit yourself to one rep range anyway. You can always start off with warming up, doing one or two strength sets, and then go to your higher rep or higher volume training.

Or you can periodize your training for your fight. There is also strength/endurance routines, where you are lifting moderately heavy, but taking short breaks between sets, so that helps with the ability to produce good strength for longer durations.

Sticking to one rep range, be it 1, 3, 6, 10 or 12 reps to me is never going to be optimal for any given length of time.

ElPietro
10-24-2006, 11:42 AM
Also, I wouldn't necessarily follow Tito's training as a bible to MMA.

Tito is a great fighter, but he is pretty much a one-trick pony. He relies solely on his wrestling for takedowns, so he can G&P from the guard and that's pretty much his entire fight game.

There are few fighters that he could stand up with, and same goes for grappling. Sure he can wrestle but submissions aren't his game either.

So if you are practicing for standup, sure his conditioning would apply, but I'm not sure if you'd want to follow everything he does, as his style of fighting is fairly one-dimensional.

There are tons of pros and I think if you trained with them, you'd find each one trains in their own way. So don't think there is one "right way" to train for a fight.

Dinosaur
10-24-2006, 01:04 PM
Awesome work Dino! I'm a little surprised you weren't under 6 (or even under 5), but a few shots and I'm sure you could rip this apart.

Now just imagine doing it in 2:37. OUCH!

I had to do my thrusters in one area then run to the other for pull-ups so that probably didn't help either. The big thing was just the pull-ups slowing me down, I haven't worked in high rep ranges with them for a while so they were probably the kicker right there. The first set of thrusters felt awkward too until I got into a groove with them. First time ever trying it though, so I think 6 is decent.

KingJustin
10-24-2006, 01:43 PM
Yeah, 6 minutes is a very good time on that. I consider myself to be in decent shape for circuits, and I don't think I could do it in 10.

ericg
10-24-2006, 02:50 PM
Dino - learn how to kip and you will be under 5 easy.

Dinosaur
10-24-2006, 04:20 PM
Dino - learn how to kip and you will be under 5 easy.

I was a Jarhead so kipping was bad in our book, it's always gotta be dead-hang. I probably could but if I were to keep doing it that way, eventually I'd get under 5 without it. I'm strange, I like doing things in the hardest way possible.

Reala
10-24-2006, 04:25 PM
I posted this in another thread, but as martial artists (as some of you are) you may be able to relate better to high reps of sit ups:

Our kickboxing class makes us do high reps of situps (mainly for endurence and mental uses rather than strength before we start the low rep debate).

Any way, sometimes at around 70 - 120 I get, what I can only describe as a clicking sensation in my abs, it feels as if something is clicking in and out of place. Doesn't really hurt (except the obvious after around 100 sit ups), just is weird to feel I guess...

Anthony
10-26-2006, 05:41 AM
I had to do my thrusters in one area then run to the other for pull-ups so that probably didn't help either. The big thing was just the pull-ups slowing me down, I haven't worked in high rep ranges with them for a while so they were probably the kicker right there. The first set of thrusters felt awkward too until I got into a groove with them. First time ever trying it though, so I think 6 is decent.

6 minutes is definitely decent!!

(although I've never been that slow, hehehe)

:p


"Diane" is another one you might enjoy. Same style as Fran (21-15-9), but you do it with 225lbs deadlifts and handstand pushups. There's a video of a guy over at crossfit doing it in 1:49. Insane!

As for the kipping, I know people think it's cheating, but there are two reasons why it's good stuff.

First, more power output.

Second, it actually mimics the extension of a clean. So there's a lot of skill transfer from kipping to oly lifts.

Saying that you do things the hard way ... that's not true. When you compete you put yourself in the strongest and most efficient position possible to ensure victory. If you're going over a wall to save your life, you're not going to be thinking (oh ****, can't generate power from anything than my arms) ... you're going to get your ass over that damn wall. If you're going to squat or clean, you put your body in the best leverage position possible. Not only does it make it safe, it also makes it more efficient.

Old military PT = run long slow boring distances, strict pullup, situp.
New military PT = crossfit.

You watch. It's coming. ;)

Shifty
10-26-2006, 06:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YARXjYqC8mU

Any one else find the comments beneath the video funny? For example:
Due respect to the performer...but IMO that's not a 1:49 Diane. The DLs are being "shorted" (needs full extension at the hip/leg) and the HSPUs are very short, barely 45 degrees. Try lifting your head and going nose-to-floor, which will allow 90 degrees at the elbow. No, I can't do Diane in 1:49...but since the guy featured is fouling every rep, neither can he.

Running 80m in :10 does not equal running 100m in :10.

Dino, good time on Fran, everyone seems to have their own slightly different technique with and your time should improve once you get that dialled. No real need to get into the whole kipping argument, but you will definitely have a much better workout if you kip - unless you have absolutely insane dead hang numbers. There is a time and a place for each different type, keep mixing it up.

Anthony
10-26-2006, 06:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YARXjYqC8mU

Any one else find the comments beneath the video funny?

The reps aren't perfect, but the power output is insane. If he was perfect on every rep, he'd still be in the 2:30 to 3:00 mark, which is consider an "elite" score on Diane. I've done the workout twice and my best time is 4:41 (if I recall correctly) and it's no joke.

ElPietro
10-26-2006, 07:40 AM
Anthony why don't you split this thread, as your crossfit discussion is entirely seperate from the main topic.

Anthony
10-26-2006, 07:43 AM
The challenge could have been taken to a new thread, but the discussion has always been about strength and conditioning for fighting. It would be too difficult to separate the two, but feel free to give it a shot. :p

Reala
10-28-2006, 10:20 AM
Personally, I think it all fits in quite well. I think the actual thread could just be called 'getting stronger with an aim to fight' because that's what the basic concept is. Personally I think it is fine as it is... and has helped me a lot and will often use it as a refference.

Reala
11-01-2006, 03:56 AM
Hey guys,

I am currently using anthony's 3 sets of 6 reps 2/3 times a week method as so many of you suggested :P

Anyways, I am not thinkiing of doing this, but it is just something I was watching last night and found it odd.

Was watching George Saint Pierre's training videos and he shows you his conditioning program, which involves 'supersets' he does 10 reps of 4 things in a row, with no break. and then has a 30 second break and does the 10 reps of 4 things again and does it in total 4 times. What are the advantages of doing that? Surely with very, very high reps like that there isn't much to gain? :S However for 170 pounds George Saint Piere looks pretty built... any ways, just wondering!

Pic:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/af/GeorgesStPierre.jpg

DVD:
http://www.mmaringreport.com/proshop/images/gsp_instruct_v1_dvd.jpg

Anthony
11-01-2006, 05:25 AM
It sounds like a complex and/or circuit. As you said, it's a conditioning workout, not a strength workout. :)

Also keep in mind, these guys don't tell you everything they do. Look at how GSP reacted when Matt Hughes was a coach on TUF4 ... GSP left the building very quickly. Why? Cause he doesn't want Matt watching how he trains. So do you really think the video is going to contain anything revolutionary?

1mmort4l
11-01-2006, 05:48 AM
It sounds like a complex and/or circuit. As you said, it's a conditioning workout, not a strength workout. :)

Also keep in mind, these guys don't tell you everything they do. Look at how GSP reacted when Matt Hughes was a coach on TUF4 ... GSP left the building very quickly. Why? Cause he doesn't want Matt watching how he trains. So do you really think the video is going to contain anything revolutionary?


Yep, this is too true!
Anyone famous will market something as their own for a few extra zeros on their bank accounts. Even if they have never done anything like it. the amount of "Arny training technique books, and Bruce Lee Philosiphy books etc is crazy!
In all honesty, why would GSP want everyone to know exactly how and what he trains? I wouldn't take everything you see and hear as a great approach.

Reala
11-02-2006, 05:02 AM
I didn't... I was just wondering what the deal was with it :P

He says he doesn't do weights 'because he is not a dodybuilder' Just wondering how someone gets to his size without doing weights, I guess just the fact he trains grappling probably everyday?

1mmort4l
11-02-2006, 06:38 AM
Well Reala, he isnt a big dude at all.. So, it wouldn't take much other than a decent diet and MMA training to maintain what he has. Getting the physique to start with may have been more, but right now he doesnt have to do alot to keep it and he also wants to stay in the weight class he is in.
Actually when i stopped weights again a while ago, i just wrestled for an hour or two 5 days a week, and stayed basically the same.

Reala
11-02-2006, 07:02 AM
Well on my latest weigh in I was 156 pounds, 71 kilograms. Which is why I don't wanna get bigger, although I would like to lean out a bit more on my abs mainly... maybe tone my arms more...

Picture...
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7560/bodywn8.gif

Appologies about the darkness :P Looking at your pic in your avatar Immortal I thought you would be a lot heavier than 165...

Anthony
11-02-2006, 07:11 AM
You should stop worrying about your abs. If your diet and training are good, abs will take care of themselves.

Reala
11-02-2006, 07:19 AM
Spose... but I still want to hurry them along. ;)

Reala
11-02-2006, 07:23 AM
It's supprisingly hard to get the diet right, because I seem to be losing weight and eating as much as I want to at the moment :P I need to eat more really... but don't particularly want to. I suppose all the training is basically adding up to about 12/14 hours of cardio a week!

1mmort4l
11-02-2006, 11:20 PM
Appologies about the darkness :P Looking at your pic in your avatar Immortal I thought you would be a lot heavier than 165...

I am only 5'9, so that kinda reduces anyones weight a bit.
Looking at Anthony's pic, you would think he would be heavier than 180, probably closer to 200. People are always surprised when they find out my weight, i even had to be weighed after a fight once because the other guys coaches didnt beleive my weight was right... Maybe i have light bones. :P

As for Abs, ever since i was about 13 i would do situps and pushups all day long for something to do. I also did some pretty nasty Ab workouts when i started weights, but after researching etc.. finding most of what i knew was bogus... :whazzup: I cant really comment on how you could get your abs to show more, i would listen to Anthony though.

I hate to say this word, but "genetics" play a huge role in how you can and will look.. Dont look at other peoples pics, and think that doing the same routines they do will make you look like them...
I would say that if you want to get bigger and more muscular, stop boxing for a while and focus on some weights etc....

Your pic "critique":
You look alright man... Your arms are fine, probably your best asset at the moment. Your chest and shoulders could use some developement, but i think you might have a decent Bench because your chest looks like it has the old "quality not quantity" thing going on.... Build up your muscles, then when you cut some weight the fat around your stomach will go too...

Reala
11-03-2006, 07:39 AM
Thanks Immortal, I think that picture is quite harsh, as in real life looking in the mirror I have very a very flat stomach, with just hardly any deffintion except at the top under my ribs... might take a picture not on my 1.1 mega pixel camera sometime ;) lol. Oh... if I did take a picture today you could see my two shining black eyes from sparring last night :S lol.

My arms used to be a heck of a lot bigger, but I am glad I have cut them down a bit, my hands feel a lot, lot quicker now and more explosive. But yeah, I deffinetly need to define my abs more, I think I need to do some weighted crunches or something... the 200 press up thing at kickboing, even I except that doesn't work :P :D

Well I personally am gonna fight at 155 pounds, which I am compared to most people in my weight pretty big... most of them have really tiny arms and tiny, tiny legs :S So I agree about the light bones thing lol... it's weird how some people weigh the same yet have totally different physiques.

What's you record like Immortal?

Reala
11-03-2006, 07:54 AM
For my abs I think I am gonna go with medicine ball throws
4 sets of 25, 5 sets of 10 weighted crunches, 5 sets of hanging knee raises eventually putting weights on my legs :P

Organichu
11-21-2006, 06:38 PM
Hey man, when's the fight?

Reala
12-07-2006, 07:16 AM
Was meant to be December 10th, they called it off until January 28th though. Gives me more time to train, but it is rather annoying!

Firstly was due to time, the guy running it is also running two pro events, so gave them priority, but also people were apparently worried about injuries so close to Christmas, etc, etc. (Black eyes in the Christmas photos etc) lol. Considering it was only ametuer, I doubt that would have been a problem... but there we go.

I am still training MMA three times a week and Kickboxing 3 times a week, we'll see how it goes, but I am feeling stronger and looking slimmer.
I weigh 69KG at the moment...

Reala
12-19-2006, 05:46 AM
Hi guys, have been training hard, still hoping to fight early this year, I have been offered a couple fights, but one was against someone with 3 years experience and 4 fights (I have 6 months and 0 fights!) and the other was at 75KG, and considering I am about 68KG I skipped that one. I am looking to fight kickboxing in January and MMA in Febuary (there is a show on the 24th I have been entered into).

Current picture:
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3207/latestuf9.gif

My training seems to be going well and if you compare that picture to the previous one, you can see I have lost a lot of body fat...