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Stumprrp
10-17-2006, 07:03 AM
Ok im cutting and my diet is SIMILAR to PSMF, im eating mostly protiens with vegeys and no starches, about 1500-1800 cals a day, carbs 30 or less, should i load on saturday? not only will this make me happy but it should help me preserve my muscle correct? 1800 is the most i will getting for cals per day, most of the time around 1600, protien is around 220-240.

shootermcgavin7
10-17-2006, 07:10 AM
Ok im cutting and my diet is SIMILAR to PSMF, im eating mostly protiens with vegeys and no starches, about 1500-1800 cals a day, carbs 30 or less, should i load on saturday? not only will this make me happy but it should help me preserve my muscle correct? 1800 is the most i will getting for cals per day, most of the time around 1600, protien is around 220-240.


Most importantly, it will help your metabolism from getting "sluggish". And if you do it right, you're unlikely to gain back much (if any) fat.

Unreal
10-17-2006, 07:14 AM
If you stick to quality carbs and don't go crazy, it will probably be good. If you use it as an excuse to pack down a dozen donuts and a large pizza then you are probably taking a big step back.

Stumprrp
10-17-2006, 07:15 AM
ok thank you, nah unreal i just really need carbs like oatmeal and stuff.

Anthony
10-17-2006, 07:21 AM
Stumpie, I know you're going to do whatever you want to do, but I personally don't think this is the right choice. Especially at your age.

Extreme diets might work in the short term, but rarely in the long term. Look at how many people on this site alone have tried these types of diets with "great" success, only to revert back to their previous composition in a couple of months. Why does that happen? Because they never learn proper eating habits that can be sustained for the rest of their life. They want the quick (and temporary) fix.

Not to mention you eat less calories than my 105lbs girlfriend and you're twice as heavy. That alone should tell you this is a bad idea.

Stumprrp
10-17-2006, 07:28 AM
anthony maybe your right, as of right now sitting in class i am so hungry its pathetic, however i dont want to be waiting ages losing 1 lb a week, i want to do it as quick and efficiant as possible, should i boast the carbs up a little bit and put hte cals back at 2,000?

Anthony
10-17-2006, 07:36 AM
The first thing I would do is double your fat. By my calcs you average 52g of fat, which is about half of what you need to maximize hormone production, etc. After that, it's simple:

Meat, veggies, nuts/seeds at every meal. Adjust your portions accordingly.

Other than that, I'd come to terms with the 1lbs/week idea. It's safe, effective, and more importantly, you'll learn long term habits along the way. This quick fix does you no good if you don't know what to do when you're done.

Pup
10-17-2006, 07:49 AM
anthony maybe your right, as of right now sitting in class i am so hungry its pathetic, however i dont want to be waiting ages losing 1 lb a week, i want to do it as quick and efficiant as possible, should i boast the carbs up a little bit and put hte cals back at 2,000?

I'm going to take the gloves off on this post, don't take it personally.

First off, you didn't put it on overnight, it won't come off overnight. Bodyweight is so often overlooked as a marker of progress, I've said it before and i will say it again, cyclical diets that control insulin concentrations are better than straight deficit diets in terms of both recomposition and sanity. Many people will be in a 1000kcal deficit per day then have one day as a huge binge day, few people can actually make this work. As I have read your journal I know that you change your mind about your goals almost daily, as well as take most people's advice with a grain of salt unless they reinforce what you want to hear, not trying to be a jerk, that's just what i've seen from you. You have also said that strength is a primary concern for you, strict deficit diets will compromise your strength and could lead you to giving up the diet.

Anthony was right on target with his assessment, you need to learn to eat correctly, at your age, beginning the cycle of bulk/cut will lead to a lifetime of yo-yo dieting. Learn a strategy that fits your lifestyle and your goals, whether it be carb cycling, high protein and low carb, etc.

Now back to your original post on the efficacy of refeeds. They are useful only if you are doing a strict low carb diet or are extremely lean. If you are in the high teens in terms of bodyfat, you'll have enough serum leptin concentrations that you shouldn't need any monster refeeds.

I'm sure you will do what you want, but take the advice from those of us that have been around the game a while, get your long term plans in check, otherwise you're doomed to come up short of your goals.

Pup
10-17-2006, 07:52 AM
The first thing I would do is double your fat. By my calcs you average 52g of fat, which is about half of what you need to maximize hormone production, etc. After that, it's simple:

Meat, veggies, nuts/seeds at every meal. Adjust your portions accordingly.

Other than that, I'd come to terms with the 1lbs/week idea. It's safe, effective, and more importantly, you'll learn long term habits along the way. This quick fix does you no good if you don't know what to do when you're done.

:withstupi

...Anthony has the body of work to back up what he's saying, everyone struggling with body composition should take his advice to heart.

Con
10-17-2006, 09:59 AM
Well I am taking Anthony's advise, but I cant say whether its working or not since its been under a week and Ive already cheated. It showed me rigtht right there, thats he right, proper eatin habits will be the foundation of our lifestyle(BBin, Power Liftin, w/e). I hope to see some good progress by new years, when Ive had diet, in check for a while.

And PUP: On a side note(this comes from the things we were talking about in Built's journal), When does fat(# of grams) become excessive/notneeded/wasted?

Back on topic, Gl stump, w/e you decide to do, just remember to think about it from all aspects.

WBBIRL
10-17-2006, 11:11 AM
Not to mention you eat less calories than my 105lbs girlfriend and you're twice as heavy. That alone should tell you this is a bad idea.



Not to play Devils Advocate here, but im 3 times heavier then your girlfriend and to lose at any kind of decent pace (more then 1 pound per week) I have to eat the same calorie range that stump is right now.... maybe the slightest bit more.

I know the whole you could be putting muscle on is garbage, you dont put anything on when eating at a deficit. So for someone who's 5'10 ish 310 pounds my metabolism is pretty damned slow, unless theres something wrong with me thats causing that problem.


Enough about me, I think his calorie ranges are fine as long as the proteins high, the weights are heavy and he has free meals on the weekends.

Stumprrp
10-17-2006, 12:41 PM
im going to take anthonys advice but i still think anthony that 1 lb a week is really slow for weight loss, i still want lose 2 lbs per week, ive done it before with no problems

Pup
10-17-2006, 12:41 PM
And PUP: On a side note(this comes from the things we were talking about in Built's journal), When does fat(# of grams) become excessive/notneeded/wasted?


This is an incredibly difficult question to answer, I believe that less than .5g/lb LBM is too low, but too high is another question entirely. If you aren't doing a ketogenic type diet, 30-35% is probably as high as one "needs", if you are doing something cyclical with refeeds every 3-4 days, you could probably go as high as 40%. When you look at certain areas of people like the eskimos, they have 40-50% of their daily calories come from animal fat, yet have some of the lowest incidence of heart disease in the world. But, applying that situation to the average bodybuilder is not a lock and key fit because natural selection may have provided certain genetic co-factors that allow peoples like the eskimos to thrive on high fat diets. By and large i would say monitor your body composition and keep an eye on HDL to LDL ratio when you are getting annual physicals done. Aside from that i don't think anyone can truly derive a mathematical formula to say X grams of fat is past the point of healthy.

Pup
10-17-2006, 12:47 PM
Not to play Devils Advocate here, but im 3 times heavier then your girlfriend and to lose at any kind of decent pace (more then 1 pound per week) I have to eat the same calorie range that stump is right now.... maybe the slightest bit more.

I know the whole you could be putting muscle on is garbage, you dont put anything on when eating at a deficit. So for someone who's 5'10 ish 310 pounds my metabolism is pretty damned slow, unless theres something wrong with me thats causing that problem.


Enough about me, I think his calorie ranges are fine as long as the proteins high, the weights are heavy and he has free meals on the weekends.

Considering that you were in a range that could be considered clinically obese, your metabolic processes are going to be much different than Rob's. Most people treated for obesity have to use very low calorie diets like a PSMF to see any appreciable loss of fat mass. He is also a teenager and his metabolic rate will operate differently than yours.

BTW...lifting heavy doesn't have that much of an effect on body composition, i don't think anyone is questioning Rob's training intensity, just his approach to dieting.

Stumprrp
10-17-2006, 02:41 PM
Rob i appreciate you taking the time to type all this but let me clear something up, i dont take peoples advice with a grain of salt, lol, especially training, ive been training with my own routines / ideas for a while now and there all effective, how ever i do like diet advice, at least for cutting, bulking is easy. Im going to take anthonys and your advice and step back from the low carb refeed diets, i just cant stand still being heavy and wanted to rush it, ill bump the cals back to 2000 like the original plan and keep my diet balanced. 2000 cals will put me at about 1.75 lbs per week, to some of you you say this is to fast, however i really think otherwise, 1 lb a week is 16 lbs in 4 months, that IMO is terrible, 20 or even 25 is better, 30 being what i would like, if i need to lose 30 lbs. i understand alot will be water also.

now, how should i restructure my meals, here is how it goes for a normal SCHOOL week.

breakfast - 3 hard boiled eggs, 1 scoop nitrean in water, a can of green beans
lunch - tuna (packed in OO drain) on wheat bread, can of vegys, water
snack (preworkout maybe) - if my mom has meat ill have that, 2 tbps natty PB
dinner - what ever meat my mom makes and what ever veggy

postworkout i usually have 2 scoops nitrean in whey but should i have more vegetables or like rice/pasta?

thanks for the help, i guess i better take those nutrition classes in college, lol, my training knowledge is there but the cutting isnt! :D

WBBIRL
10-17-2006, 03:01 PM
Considering that you were in a range that could be considered clinically obese, your metabolic processes are going to be much different than Rob's. Most people treated for obesity have to use very low calorie diets like a PSMF to see any appreciable loss of fat mass. He is also a teenager and his metabolic rate will operate differently than yours.

BTW...lifting heavy doesn't have that much of an effect on body composition, i don't think anyone is questioning Rob's training intensity, just his approach to dieting.

Im 19 ATM, my metabolism shouldnt be dead just yet. And 1500-2000 per day isnt low for a 300 pounder?!

Pup
10-17-2006, 04:52 PM
Rob i appreciate you taking the time to type all this but let me clear something up, i dont take peoples advice with a grain of salt, lol, especially training, ive been training with my own routines / ideas for a while now and there all effective, how ever i do like diet advice, at least for cutting, bulking is easy. Im going to take anthonys and your advice and step back from the low carb refeed diets, i just cant stand still being heavy and wanted to rush it, ill bump the cals back to 2000 like the original plan and keep my diet balanced. 2000 cals will put me at about 1.75 lbs per week, to some of you you say this is to fast, however i really think otherwise, 1 lb a week is 16 lbs in 4 months, that IMO is terrible, 20 or even 25 is better, 30 being what i would like, if i need to lose 30 lbs. i understand alot will be water also.

now, how should i restructure my meals, here is how it goes for a normal SCHOOL week.

breakfast - 3 hard boiled eggs, 1 scoop nitrean in water, a can of green beans
lunch - tuna (packed in OO drain) on wheat bread, can of vegys, water
snack (preworkout maybe) - if my mom has meat ill have that, 2 tbps natty PB
dinner - what ever meat my mom makes and what ever veggy

postworkout i usually have 2 scoops nitrean in whey but should i have more vegetables or like rice/pasta?

thanks for the help, i guess i better take those nutrition classes in college, lol, my training knowledge is there but the cutting isnt! :D

What is your current calorie intake, if its like 3k...drop it down incrementally, like 250kcals deficit per day...no point going from 3k to 2k then having to drop it to 1200 at the end if you can finish the diet around 1800kcals.

Your food choices look good, make sure protein is no less than 1g/lb (1.25g/lb would be optimal), throw in an extra scoop of nitrean somewhere if you have to. If you're doing the straight deficit, keep starchy carbs to a minimum, eat more veggies if you have to, adding some fat to them to make them more palatable is acceptable (like 1tbsp butter or 1oz melted cheese, etc.). If you won't be cycling carbs, you have to really know how much food you are eating, especially if you are going to try to drop 30lbs. You may lose more weight at first and then it could taper off at the end, the leaner you are, the lower leptin concentrations are...this is when refeeds will have to be used.

Pup
10-17-2006, 04:55 PM
Im 19 ATM, my metabolism shouldnt be dead just yet. And 1500-2000 per day isnt low for a 300 pounder?!

I thought you were older bro...my bad.

1500-2000 is low, but, it really depends on your bodyfat, your insulin sensitivity and serum leptin concentrations. People with more bodyfat have slower metabolisms, from the studies i've referenced many people in the 300 pound range that are carrying above 25% bodyfat have to really drop calories, the plus side is they can lose a lot of weight without needing to refeed because they have so much circulating serum leptin.

Stumprrp
10-17-2006, 07:13 PM
thanks rob, ive been doing like 2k for 2 weeks but ive had 2 cheat days, i just dropped it to like 18 but today i put it back at 2000, so your saying i should be fine with the diet i listed just a lil more protien? no problem. the only starches i eat are usually the bread from my sandwhich, vegys is where my carbs come from.

however im on a rampage,

i treated myself to a cookie at dunkin donuts because i was proud of my leg day today, 1 cookie...

540 calories, 25 grams of fat, and 80 grams of carbs, omfg, 1 cooke!!! this still brings my cals to like 2200 and carbs to only about 110 but still lol.

WBBIRL
10-17-2006, 08:22 PM
Its an outrage isnt it? 4 cookies and your over your total limit in like 3 min worth of eating.

Stumprrp
10-17-2006, 08:29 PM
im outraged lol

Stumprrp
10-18-2006, 07:47 AM
rob - just added some smart balance butter (1tbps) to my string beans and it tasted fantastic! thanks! smart balance is good stuff too.

breakfast was 4 whole eggs and 2 cups of string beans, pretty good got my protien fats and some carbs.