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TreeTrunks
02-10-2002, 07:46 PM
Ok I have been working an a new cutting diet. I weigh right now @231lbs. I calculated my LBM@177lbs. From there I calculated I need 1930 calories, since im cutting I cut 500 calories from that to bring the total to 1430 calories a day.

I am trying to decide if I want my macro ratio to be 50/35/15 (P/C/F) or 45/40/15 (P/C/F). What would you all suggest?

On training days I have my meals as the following:
Meal 1 - 286
Meal 2 - 286
Meal 3 - 286
Meal 4 - 586(postworkout)
Meal 5 - 186

On non-training days I have this:
Meal 1 - 286
Meal 2 - 286
Meal 3 - 286
Meal 4 - 286
Meal 5 - 286

I realize that most of you will think 1430 calories a day at a BW of 231lbs is ridiculous but realize that muscle burns calories not fat. I would appreciate help and HELPFUL comments. Thanks.

Mr.Buttcheeks
02-10-2002, 09:09 PM
try this out bro eat nothing but veggies fried in extravirgin olive oil and soysauce mmm yummy. the rest tuna and pickleswith no sugar added or chicken with some texas pete hot sauce and alot of protien shakes take about 300 grams of protien sinse your 170 pounds or lean mass have like one small yummy meal a day right before workout like an all natural peanutbutter sandwich with sugar free jam take about 10 grams of flaxseed a day, this works for me im shure you will find many ways on this site

Mr.Buttcheeks
02-10-2002, 09:14 PM
dont worry about all the bs of countin calories in my opinion. been there done that and after that i wiped my ass with it:) eat about 6-10 handfulls of veggies a day. each time you fry like a couple big handfulls of veggies or 3 handfulls use about table spoon of olive oil-15 grams of fat. some of the fat will be in the plate when u eat it but this is very good fat remember

TreeTrunks
02-10-2002, 09:24 PM
Well I just worked out the foods and quanities. Pretty much chicken, tuna, protein powder, milk, rice, cottage cheese, BBQ sauce, wheat bread, and egg whites. 1408 calories, 131 grams of carbs, 177 grams of protein, and 12 grams of fat. I gone through it with a fine toothed comb yet I still need a few more calories. So it looks like I have a 50/35/15 macro ratio (Protein/Carbs/Fat).

Thanks for the input. I like counting calories. Makes me feel more scientific.

Mr.Buttcheeks
02-10-2002, 09:32 PM
well good luck to you i dont see how u can cut up on rice(too starchy) milk(too shugery) cottage chease(too many carbs) wheat bread(too starchy too many carbs) and barbacue sauce(too shugary) too much heavy and starchy carbs you need superslow digesting veggies. what you outlined is just your average american diet with less fat basically and more protien with the SAME CARBS. good luck but i dont think this will work. keep us updated

Mr.Buttcheeks
02-10-2002, 09:36 PM
wow i didnt see that only 12 grams of fat thats insane, you must up the fat to burn fat for fuel otherwise your just a carb burner or sugar burner not a fat burner. 12 grams of fat will hurt your testosterone levels i beleive

TreeTrunks
02-10-2002, 09:36 PM
dude brown rice is pretty low in the GI. milk sugar is low on the GI. BBQ sauce is only 1 tsb. or 30 calories. Wheat is low on the GI. Thats not the classic american diet thats the classic bodybuilding diet. Hey if it works for the pros it can work for me. Anyone else with comments?

Mr.Buttcheeks
02-10-2002, 09:38 PM
yeah it is low around 50-70 on a scale of 1-100 but veggies are like 10-20 or less on the g i scale. pro's juice so anything will get them big. unless your on juice

TreeTrunks
02-10-2002, 09:38 PM
Trust me my test. levels are out of control. They are crazy high! If anything they need to be lowered a bit, for health reasons. Carbs are your bodies main fuel source.

TreeTrunks
02-10-2002, 09:42 PM
veggies are ok but I need something with more carbs. especially to get through my workouts. Veggies are so low in carbs I wouldn't bother counting them. But I understnad where your coming from and your diet would work too.

Tryska
02-11-2002, 04:19 AM
1430 kcals is WAY too low for 231lbs. you can lose weight eating more cals.

Pup
02-11-2002, 04:48 AM
I totally agree, you don't cut based upon your lbm, its total body mass, i've cut at 1500 calories when i was 180lbs and that was way to low, you will destroy all your hard work if you go to that extreme.

Tryska
02-11-2002, 05:15 AM
my point exactly....your body doesn't just choose to feed the minimal calories you give it to your muscles. if anything...on a diet that low, your body is gonna preferentially catabolize muscle in favor of keeping fat, since it needs less calories to maintain, and muscle is high maintenance.

so yeah you'll lose wieght, but that wieght is gonna be the muscle you put on...not the fat. you wann alose fat, you gotta eat enough for your body to think it's okay to let the "lifesaving" fat go.

geoffgc
02-11-2002, 12:30 PM
trysk. What's a general idea of how much fat to eat in a day (while trying to cut a bit)? And you guys go for good sources like monofats or don't really care?

I'm 171 lbs.

Tryska
02-11-2002, 12:40 PM
well geoff, depends on what type of diet your using.....if a traditional high carb/med protein/low fat, then about 20-30%

if isocaloric (which is technically what I'm using now) then 33-ish%

if keto then you ar elooking at 75%

so i guess an all purpose value would be round about 30% fat, and yeah, you wanna make that quality fat for the most part...EFAs, mono-unsaturated etc, although i still stand by the opinion that saturated fat is not the devil.

gino
02-11-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by TreeTrunks
Ok I have been working an a new cutting diet. I weigh right now @231lbs. I calculated my LBM@177lbs. From there I calculated I need 1930 calories, since im cutting I cut 500 calories from that to bring the total to 1430 calories a day.



Just a warning bro - with so few calories, you'll end up much lighter in both body weight AND lean body weight. Sure, you can drop down to 210 lbs, but you'll probably lose 10 lbs of LBM and look like a smaller version of what you look like now. How did you calculate the 1930 calorie stat? I'm 200 lbs right now and losing fat at a nice pace eating 2500 calories a day.

geoffgc
02-11-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by TreeTrunks
I am trying to decide if I want my macro ratio to be 50/35/15 (P/C/F) or 45/40/15 (P/C/F). What would you all suggest?


What do you guys think of his original ratio question?

Tryska
02-11-2002, 01:57 PM
damn. i didn't even notice that.

with that caloric intake and that macro breakdown (either one) he's begging for catabolism.

Tryska
02-11-2002, 01:57 PM
protein is an expensive way of getting your sugar.

geoffgc
02-11-2002, 02:25 PM
ok. calories and the bajillion variables aside, 40P-40C-20F or 40P-30C-30F sound generally correct for a safe, non-catabolic cutting ratio?

With my newbie knowledge, I think the 40-30-30 sounds preferable.

Tryska
02-11-2002, 04:44 PM
yeah...of the 2 i'd go with 40-30-30.

right now i'm doing an iso-caloric, but honestly for me, carb ratios arne't as important as where those carbs come from.

TreeTrunks
02-11-2002, 04:56 PM
30% fat on a cutting diet is waaayy too much fat.

Pup
02-11-2002, 05:03 PM
You are out of your mind, if you want to destroy your metabolism, be my guest, but you will just lose muscle, and if 30% is too much, then tell me how basically every bodybuilder who does isocal takes in about 30% fat and still loses weight.

Tryska
02-11-2002, 05:04 PM
tree-trunks...you're trippin'.

TreeTrunks
02-11-2002, 05:25 PM
just a pup you said it every bodybuilder on an iso diet, im not. Last time I checked serious BBer's had a fat ratio of 20-15% fat. 30% sounds like a bulking ratio.

Avatar
02-11-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by TreeTrunks
30% fat on a cutting diet is waaayy too much fat.

incorrect.

TreeTrunks
02-11-2002, 05:28 PM
What is your opinion?

Tryska
02-11-2002, 05:30 PM
30% is what you need to keep your hormones working and your joints safe while training. among other things.

15% is just gonna make your skin and hair all f*cked up, and on tha tlevel of calories, you might get the added benefit of it falling out as well.

TreeTrunks
02-11-2002, 05:32 PM
I realize the calories are too low and I am going to bring them up to 2000. And try that. But seriously every BBer's diet I have seen or every BBing diet I have read has recommned 20-15% fat and bulking diets have consisted of 30-35% fat.

TreeTrunks
02-11-2002, 05:32 PM
My hormones need to be calmed anyway. I have an unhealthy high level of test.

Tryska
02-11-2002, 05:37 PM
sugar isn't the best way to lose fat.

and i'm pretty sure that remark was flippant, but either way, test allows you to lose fat, glucagon allows you to lose fat, gh allows you to lose fat. all of those hormones need adequate fat intake in order to flow properly.

right now with the diet you ahve set up you are encouraging insulin and cortisol. both of which encourage fat storage, not loss.

TreeTrunks
02-11-2002, 05:39 PM
I have yet to see a serious BBer's cutting diet that is 30% fat. Do you know where I can go on the net to look up fat and its effect on hormones?

Mr.Buttcheeks
02-11-2002, 07:06 PM
pro bodybuilders inject testosterone (juice) thats why they dont need to take much fat to keep there test levels up,

TreeTrunks
02-11-2002, 07:38 PM
Hello is my keyboard working? I don't need to raise my test levels any more. *talking very slowly*

=w=
02-11-2002, 07:44 PM
TreeTrunks-
"Hello is my keyboard working? I don't need to raise my test levels any more. *talking very slowly* "


IF you decrease your fat intake as low as you are planning to you will. And stop looking at pros diets for advice - their diets (just like their training programs) do not apply to the natural bodybuilder.

TreeTrunks
02-11-2002, 07:46 PM
Its not just pros diets I am looking at it is diets by hatfield and franco for the avg. BBer.

Gyno Rhino
02-12-2002, 09:48 AM
*sigh* C'mon, dawg! I leave the game and look at you! Eating ~2000 cals a day! *cry* We gotta work on this!

Okay, okay. So you wanna cut.

Is there a time limit that needs to be met? (i.e. three months or something)?

IF NOT, do this. Start with 3000 cals a day. See what happens with your weight. After a couple of weeks, drop it to 2750. Then to 2500, then 2250, then 2000. Don't go any lower than that. With your size, if you're eating 2000 cals a day, you will be losing muscle. No doubt. Start with 3000, step it down as needed. Don't be in too much of a hurry, your muscle will pay for it.

And I'd suggest a macro ratio close to the Zone for cutting without drastic reduction in carbs or calories. Maybe move it to 40/35/25 of carb/pro/fat. DO NOT BUY INTO THE RADICALLY LOW CARB or LOW CALORIE stuff. Remember, you ain't on juice. It doesn't matter how high those natty test levels are, you'll pay with muscle.

Tryska
02-12-2002, 09:58 AM
or the radically LOW FAT stuff either. tuttut

Gyno Rhino
02-12-2002, 10:00 AM
YES, sorry I forgot to mention the FAT stuff. For a bodybuilder, I'd never drop it below 15%. And I'd never drop it below 25% normally, unless you've specifically found out through contest prep and training that your body responds better to a diet with fat <25%. And as far as your test levels go, if you're having problems with hormones, I'd certainly not drop fat levels.

geoffgc
02-12-2002, 01:34 PM
Gyno (or others)-

Trysk was helping me earlier, and I'd like to get your spin on this since you seem to have and idea of some percentages.

I have a 6 month goal of losing the last 10-13 lbs I'm guessing I have, and adding as much lean cut muscle as possible by then.
I'm going to start 40p-30c-30f next week when I get my protein powders in.

Do you think this is a correct food percentage for my 6 month goal? I'm not really too interested in the bulking/cutting thing right now, I want to look as cut as possible during these 6 months as I steadily grow more muscle.

I'm 171 lbs and have a bmr of ~1900 (I'm 29 yrsold)

:strong:

Avatar
02-12-2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by geoffgc
Gyno (or others)-

Trysk was helping me earlier, and I'd like to get your spin on this since you seem to have and idea of some percentages.

I have a 6 month goal of losing the last 10-13 lbs I'm guessing I have, and adding as much lean cut muscle as possible by then.
I'm going to start 40p-30c-30f next week when I get my protein powders in.

Do you think this is a correct food percentage for my 6 month goal? I'm not really too interested in the bulking/cutting thing right now, I want to look as cut as possible during these 6 months as I steadily grow more muscle.

I'm 171 lbs and have a bmr of ~1900 (I'm 29 yrsold)

:strong:

I like that ratio.

ElPietro
02-13-2002, 01:35 PM
Trunks I'm a bit heavier than you but I went on a 40/30/30 split at about 2500 cals a day and found results quick. My problem was I didn't stick with it but the short time I did I noticed a visible effect rather quickly. I'd say go 40/30/30 keep cals around 2500, I had trouble some days getting in 2500 cals cuz i'm not used to how much food it really is when you eat clean.

I think Gyno gave you solid advice.

geoffgc
02-13-2002, 01:57 PM
Pietro-

A couple questions (while I keep highjacking Trunks thread):

You referring to 40 Protein - 30 - 30
or 40 Carb - 30 - 30 ?

Also, random general guess if ya can, I'm only 171 lbs (skinny, weak and old!) but am looking to cut and gain some muscle. 2500 cals too much for me?

How much were you working out when you were eating that much?

I'm eating clean right now, but I think I'm going to find (as I make my 6 month plan) that I've cut too many cals already and have probably lost some muscle along with fat.

See, I've heard cutting 500 cals or 100 cals from your AMR. Or is that from your BMR?

:withstupi

ElPietro
02-13-2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by geoffgc
Pietro-

A couple questions (while I keep highjacking Trunks thread):

You referring to 40 Protein - 30 - 30
or 40 Carb - 30 - 30 ?

Also, random general guess if ya can, I'm only 171 lbs (skinny, weak and old!) but am looking to cut and gain some muscle. 2500 cals too much for me?

How much were you working out when you were eating that much?

I'm eating clean right now, but I think I'm going to find (as I make my 6 month plan) that I've cut too many cals already and have probably lost some muscle along with fat.

See, I've heard cutting 500 cals or 100 cals from your AMR. Or is that from your BMR?

:withstupi

geoffgc:

it's protein/carb/fat.

2500 cals is probably right around your maintainance levels if you are pretty active. Try 2500 or 3000 for a few weeks if you're trying to bulk and see how it goes; up it 500 if you find you are staying the same weight.

2500 isn't really that much for someone who is over 240lbs. So it was a cutting diet for me. I was pretty active though, prolly weight train 3 times per week, thai boxing 1-3 times per week, and at times mix in some ice hockey or ball hockey too.

Eating clean is good, that right now is my problem. Make sure you are getting adequate calories to support your body or all the work you do in the gym will not result in an increase in mass. Obviously the harder you push yourself the more fuel you will require.

BMR everywhere I've read.

Hope that helps! :hello:

ElPietro
02-13-2002, 09:22 PM
Oops, I missed the part about cutting and gaining some muscle. I would recommend that you try to focus on one goal at a time. If you are just starting out then weight training and eating right will help you do both at the same time, but soon it will be much more difficult. If you are afraid of losing muscle then you can drop the pounds slowly so that you sacrifice less muscle. Or you can bulk above your desired weight adding muscle and then cut either quickly or slowly depending on desired weight. Don't try to do too much at once, it can get frustrating.

geoffgc
02-14-2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
If you are just starting out then weight training and eating right will help you do both at the same time, but soon it will be much more difficult.

Why/what will be more difficult?

If you are afraid of losing muscle then you can drop the pounds slowly so that you sacrifice less muscle. Or you can bulk above your desired weight adding muscle and then cut either quickly or slowly depending on desired weight. Don't try to do too much at once, it can get frustrating.

After establishing a 40-30-30 ratio right now and figuring out a slight reduction in calories, I figure I should be able to lose some of those last lbs around my waist while hopefully maintaining or even gaining slight muscle.

Then I figured that by simply, slowly increasing the total calories, and later perhaps the carb ratio slightly, I should be able to add more muscle without simply bulking and adding all the fat back on.

Am I correct in thinking this? Or is it simply too difficult to try and grow without eating enough cals that I gain a little fat too (normal bulking)?

geoffgc
02-14-2002, 01:45 PM
Oh, one more question:

"eating clean" are you referring to simple a whole foods natural diet eggs, chicken, rice, broccoli, etc? Or is it something else?

ElPietro
02-15-2002, 06:12 PM
Well I can give you a simplified explanation for now on the cutting and growing thing. Your body needs more nutrients and cals to add more tissue but how can you do that when you are restricting the calories in your diet to drop weight? You will not have enough intake to facilitate those gains. It has been discussed at length in the past and you could probably find a more articulate answer elsewhere here if you wish to search.

As for eating clean I just mean cutting out a lot of junk food and fast food as much as possible. Lotta sugar and saturated fat will kill your diet.

geoffgc
02-15-2002, 06:45 PM
cool, thx!

I guess I'll just keep restricting the cals a bit, and trying my best to not lose any more muscle for the next month or so as I get rid of these last little lovehandles I loathe.

But then I'm gonna do like I was thinking, and slowly ramp up the cals, and maybe the carb ratio a bit, to slowly gain weight (lean muscle).

I'm gonna get a fat caliper to be able to see whether the weight I'm adding at that point is fat or lean tissue so I can closely monitor the max I can eat to grow without gettin fat. Sound reasonable?


I guess my prob is that out here in sunny So-Cal, I don't wanna have the "I'm bulking" waist at any point, seeing we do go outside quite a bit year round in the mostly warm weather.... :D
As far as eating clean, I'm pretty dam good at that. I've even managed to kick the drinking for the most part. That dam alcohol which I love so much is what REALLY keeps you back, especially as you get older.:whiner: