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View Full Version : Gain strength but not weight?



pulpmelon
11-28-2006, 03:06 PM
Simple question really, Is it possible develop power without having to pile on the pounds?

I want to stay out of the super heavy weight class for boxing but get those numbers shifting too.

Am I asking too much?

RedSpikeyThing
11-28-2006, 03:30 PM
Don't eat over your maintenance level.

KevinStarke
11-28-2006, 03:37 PM
I'm a prime example of this, i've been 160 for a good long while now but have made good strength gains in all my lifts since I moved up from the 148 class to the 165 class. The key in my opinion is to just eat when your hungry but make sure the foods are healthy, quality foods and train in the low rep/high weight range when you lift. Its easily doable.

RedSpikeyThing
11-28-2006, 03:40 PM
The key in my opinion is to just eat when your hungry

Doesn't really work for everyone. I know that if I didn't track what I ate I would definately lose a lot of weight.

KevinStarke
11-28-2006, 03:42 PM
Well after enough training/eating you should know your body well enough to know when your over or undereating...

Sexybeast777
11-29-2006, 12:50 AM
Simple question really, Is it possible develop power without having to pile on the pounds?

I want to stay out of the super heavy weight class for boxing but get those numbers shifting too.

Am I asking too much?

No, that's not asking for too much, you can gain a lot of strength without gaining a pound, but you might lose fat in the process

LouPac
11-29-2006, 12:55 AM
No, that's not asking for too much, you can gain a lot of strength without gaining a pound, but you might lose fat in the process

I have to disagree with this.

Fuzzy
11-29-2006, 04:11 AM
Boys! Play nice lol.

How about both of you state WHY you disagree... then agree to disagree?

Please, Id really like to know

This topic is of interest to me. Right now, Im trying to lose as much weight as possible.

Come next year, rowing offseason April-August, I wanna get very damn strong, training hard, 3-5 reps, alot of sets.

If its possible, Id prefer not to put on any weight, and I wouldent mind losing some. Stay light for the boat.

Sexybeast777
11-29-2006, 04:21 AM
Boys! Play nice lol.

How about both of you state WHY you disagree... then agree to disagree?

Please, Id really like to know

This topic is of interest to me. Right now, Im trying to lose as much weight as possible.

Come next year, rowing offseason April-August, I wanna get very damn strong, training hard, 3-5 reps, alot of sets.

If its possible, Id prefer not to put on any weight, and I wouldent mind losing some. Stay light for the boat.
Fuzzy, I must admit, I admire your incredible enthusiasm! It's rare now a days to see 14yr olds being so serious and determined about their physical goals and stuff, I wish more kids were like you

Fuzzy
11-29-2006, 05:19 AM
Hehehe, thanks sexy.

Now, answer the question!

WillKuenzel
11-29-2006, 05:46 AM
Do any of ya'll know anything about CNS recruitment?

You can get stronger without gaining or losing any weight. You can get stronger while putting on muscle or losing fat. It doesn't matter. Strength is going to be a matter of nervous system adaptation as it could be with muscle gain. When a muscle contracts, its possible that not every fiber has to be utilized. Otherwise when you bent over to pick up a box it would seem like a 1RM attempt. Your body is lazy and will only do what little bit it has to in order to get the job done.

That being said, when do go to do a 1RM attempt your body might not understand what's happening and only utilitze about 60-70% of the muscle fibers needed to do the work. Keep training to do the exercise and keep training the exercise itself and you gradually be able to get more out of muscles when they adapt to the exercise.

There is some carryover from lifts to movements but if you really want to get better at a movement you have to do it more often and under harder circumstances to force your body to adapt, either muscular or nervous.

ArchAngel777
11-29-2006, 09:20 AM
Do any of ya'll know anything about CNS recruitment?

You can get stronger without gaining or losing any weight. You can get stronger while putting on muscle or losing fat. It doesn't matter. Strength is going to be a matter of nervous system adaptation as it could be with muscle gain. When a muscle contracts, its possible that not every fiber has to be utilized. Otherwise when you bent over to pick up a box it would seem like a 1RM attempt. Your body is lazy and will only do what little bit it has to in order to get the job done.

That being said, when do go to do a 1RM attempt your body might not understand what's happening and only utilitze about 60-70% of the muscle fibers needed to do the work. Keep training to do the exercise and keep training the exercise itself and you gradually be able to get more out of muscles when they adapt to the exercise.

There is some carryover from lifts to movements but if you really want to get better at a movement you have to do it more often and under harder circumstances to force your body to adapt, either muscular or nervous.

I do now, thanks!

WillKuenzel
11-29-2006, 01:21 PM
Its a very very crude explanation but that's the general idea of how powerlifters or anybody else gets stronger without going up or down in their respective weight classes.

Fuzzy
11-29-2006, 01:35 PM
Hmmm.

That is very cool!

So, on an ergo, or in a boat, Ill pull the handle and oar 20,000 times in a week. Im sire thats some muscle recruitment lol.

Is this also why routines are good, in order to achieve good CNS?

I have every session planned down. ALl excersizes everything, and I follow it in a religious routine.

Thats cool, thanks guys.

Fuzzy
11-29-2006, 09:10 PM
Hmmm.... random thought.

Would going to failure, then assisted for 3 reps after help with the CNS thing, cause you really have to activate every bit of the muscle????

(Slam me if Im wrong)

nhlfan
11-29-2006, 09:37 PM
you don't want to tire out your CNS excessively.

Fuzzy
11-29-2006, 09:39 PM
But... is my thinking logical?

Not saying excessive, but to failure, and bit beyond.

Chubrock
11-29-2006, 10:47 PM
But... is my thinking logical?

Not saying excessive, but to failure, and bit beyond.



They are one in the same thing.

WillKuenzel
11-30-2006, 09:08 AM
Fuzzy, no. Because at that point the CNS has already fatigued. Training to muscular failure is more of a CNS failure than muscular. It takes longer for the CNS to recover than muscles and you don't train the muscles to failure every time so you definitely don't train the CNS to failure all the time either. Getting a few forced reps here and there ain't a bad idea but its not something to do on a regular basis.

arnoldsclone
11-30-2006, 09:28 AM
Fuzzy, no. Because at that point the CNS has already fatigued. Training to muscular failure is more of a CNS failure than muscular. It takes longer for the CNS to recover than muscles and you don't train the muscles to failure every time so you definitely don't train the CNS to failure all the time either. Getting a few forced reps here and there ain't a bad idea but its not something to do on a regular basis.

i always seem to gasin tons of strength when i lift to failure on every set though........ you think if i only did failure on my last set or to ( i do a 5 by 5) i'd gain more strength?

KevinStarke
11-30-2006, 10:46 AM
For as long as I trained at Hollywoods with Phil I think he made me go to failure during a set once.. maybe twice. I dont see how forced reps would help your strength very much at all.

WBBIRL
11-30-2006, 10:54 AM
Forced maybe not, but assisted reps can help a lot. Again something to be used sparingly, but using weights for a portion of a rep (say the eccentric portion of a bench) that you can use for the whole motion create a lot more intensity then the body is use to for obvious reasons.

I've done it both ways, I put on a lot of weight with relatively low strength upon gaining all that weight and I've lost weight while putting on decent strength. Like mentioned above, most of the increases you will see in strength is nothing more then training your body to recruit more muscle fibers when you lift.

Chubrock
11-30-2006, 11:48 AM
Forced maybe not, but assisted reps can help a lot. Again something to be used sparingly, but using weights for a portion of a rep (say the eccentric portion of a bench) that you can use for the whole motion create a lot more intensity then the body is use to for obvious reasons.

I've done it both ways, I put on a lot of weight with relatively low strength upon gaining all that weight and I've lost weight while putting on decent strength. Like mentioned above, most of the increases you will see in strength is nothing more then training your body to recruit more muscle fibers when you lift.


There's a difference between working certain parts of a lift (Concentric GMs, Rack Squats etc) and doing assisted reps. IMO anyway.

KevinStarke
11-30-2006, 11:51 AM
If you need assistance your not doing the rep and I really dont see it helping you rather than tiring you out before your next set.

SaVvY
11-30-2006, 12:17 PM
Simple question really, Is it possible develop power without having to pile on the pounds?

I want to stay out of the super heavy weight class for boxing but get those numbers shifting too.

Am I asking too much?
no your not - its very simple, strength train and dont eat enough to grow

without the food to build your body up, it will instead be forced to get stronger, as it must deal with the heavy weights your pushing it to do

Stumprrp
11-30-2006, 01:09 PM
So Will, this is true obviously you just proved yourself, but is it also safe to say when bulking the strength gains will be GREATER for LONGER?

WillKuenzel
11-30-2006, 02:26 PM
If that's how you're lifting. If you're doing just a hypertrophy routine then the strength gains might not be as much as somebody else who's doing a strength routine while eating maintenance.

Stumprrp
11-30-2006, 04:47 PM
If that's how you're lifting. If you're doing just a hypertrophy routine then the strength gains might not be as much as somebody else who's doing a strength routine while eating maintenance.

true, but what if you are on a low rep balls to the wall routine and eating above or well above maintenance?

Fuzzy
11-30-2006, 05:27 PM
Oh, this is a cool thread.

Aite then...

Say I do BB bench, 3-5 freaking heavy, same with a missioary. Do DB benching, 6-8, DB shoulder press same reps.

On the bar, I can get strong, and on the DBs I can get the hypetrophy.

Eat a few hundered over mait. 4 months later.... 20 lbs heavier?

And a ****lod stronger.

WillKuenzel
11-30-2006, 05:35 PM
true, but what if you are on a low rep balls to the wall routine and eating above or well above maintenance?In that case, then, yes.

LouPac
11-30-2006, 05:37 PM
As far as forced reps go, hey once in a while I don't see the harm. Personally I never do forced reps on my compound movements, I only do them in isolation movements.

As far as gaining strength without putting pounds it's obviously possible. We've all done it, especially when we first started. But, it will take A LOT longer to gain strength that way then you would eating enough to grow bigger.

schmitty199
12-01-2006, 04:52 PM
I dont think the food is the key factor in this. When lifting weights higher reps = Muscle Mass. Lower reps dont add near as much mass but increase power better and faster.

Probably do all your lifts 3 x 3 or 3 x 2 x 1 or something.

LouPac
12-01-2006, 05:57 PM
I dont think the food is the key factor in this. When lifting weights higher reps = Muscle Mass. Lower reps dont add near as much mass but increase power better and faster.

Probably do all your lifts 3 x 3 or 3 x 2 x 1 or something.

Food is always the key factor.

pulpmelon
12-09-2006, 04:04 PM
Ok its been going well the last two weeks. I was weighed in at 98kg on thursday down ~2kg on fat. I recon I could sweat another 1kg no trouble. The big bonus is my first body weight clean and jerk as of yesterday. I think this could work!

Deciever
12-21-2006, 11:04 AM
It's definately possible! I'veen around around 160lbs for well over a year now...

When i first reached 160 or so, I was squatting around 500, benching 340ish, and deadlifting high 400's.

Now as time has passed, im still at about 160(163 at my last contest to be exact), my best lifts are a 660 squat, 415 bench, and 600 deadlift for 2 singles.

Chris686
12-21-2006, 01:18 PM
It's definately possible! I'veen around around 160lbs for well over a year now...

When i first reached 160 or so, I was squatting around 500, benching 340ish, and deadlifting high 400's.

Now as time has passed, im still at about 160(163 at my last contest to be exact), my best lifts are a 660 squat, 415 bench, and 600 deadlift for 2 singles.

You got videos?

WillKuenzel
12-21-2006, 01:46 PM
It's definately possible! I'veen around around 160lbs for well over a year now...

When i first reached 160 or so, I was squatting around 500, benching 340ish, and deadlifting high 400's.

Now as time has passed, im still at about 160(163 at my last contest to be exact), my best lifts are a 660 squat, 415 bench, and 600 deadlift for 2 singles.
What federation do you lift in?

Deciever
12-21-2006, 02:18 PM
LOL, i knew somebody would ask that . . . . I lift in AAPF and i'm doing a USAPL meet soon

I'm at work now so i dont have access to all my regular stuff. but hre's a few pics of me benhcing 400 and 410, a deadlift pic with 550 or something, a short vid of a 600 dl, and a picture of me coming up with 660. . .

600 DL (http://www.fortifiediron.com/600.wmv) -- Short clip cuts out at top

Deciever
12-21-2006, 02:20 PM
660 squat pictures didn't get added

WillKuenzel
12-21-2006, 02:28 PM
Very nice! With a name like "Deciever" it never hurts to ask for a little verification. ;)

When is your next meet?

Deciever
12-21-2006, 03:01 PM
haha thanks man, i appreciate the comments

I'm either doing a USAPL meet in early spring ( hoping to total 1600ish @ 165 in the usapl.. that'd be sick) or an AAPF meet in february ( hoping for 10x bw)

I want to get at least one more meet in before I turn twenty.

KevinStarke
12-21-2006, 04:58 PM
Whats up Admin.

Deciever
12-21-2006, 05:12 PM
Haha, damn kevin, you're everywhere

KevinStarke
12-21-2006, 05:20 PM
Haha, just here and FI with you guys.

HeavyBomber
12-21-2006, 07:16 PM
Jeez Deciever, you're impressive.

Deciever
12-21-2006, 10:19 PM
thanks man!

Chris686
12-21-2006, 10:51 PM
No **** man, you're not even twenty?

That's damn impressive.

KingWilder
12-21-2006, 11:11 PM
awesome Deciever!

any chance you can list your split and what you've done to become so strong at such a low weight?

mikesbytes
12-21-2006, 11:28 PM
What kind of strength do you want? What are you targeting?

The others have covered diet etc.

If you combine a sizable aerobic component as per you boxing training you will not build muscle at the same rate as a body builder.

1mmort4l
12-22-2006, 01:43 AM
Impressive indeed Deceiver...
What are your RAW lifts?

Deciever
12-22-2006, 07:34 AM
I'll try to answer the questions as best I can..

I lift like an idiot.. I don't really plan my programs out, I just go in knowing i want to do something and I do it.. I followed a high volume routine for a few months that worked great ( i'll paste it below) and then i did a bunch of random reps and 30 rep sets for a while, which made me strong as balls.


My raw lifts are as follows..
I only squat wide in my suit, so i dont have any raw wide squat, but my best close stance squat w/ knee wraps is 500 @ 165(Usapl style)

I've benchd 315 x 3 raw, and an easy 330 ( i wanted to say i bench 2x bw raw, lol )

I recently just pulled 590 w/ just a belt sumo... been training conventional now, gonna work up to 565 x 3, and maybe give 605 a run.

--------


I did this routine below for about 2 months when i had the time ( now im working full time +school full time ).

TRAINING
Day 1 Squats
Close Grip Board Press - mid reps
Hamstring Work
Hip Work
Ab Work
Light Back Work

Day 2 Bench
Rear Delt Work
Chest Work
Squats
Light Shoulder Work

Day 3 Deadlifts
Heavy Back Work
Hip Work
Hamstring Work
Ab Work

Day 4 Military Press - Strict
Upper Back Work
Trap Work
Squats - Light
Tricep Work - Heavy



That worked great for me.

One thing that I do that alot of lifters don't, is ridiculous amounts of cardio. I'll run anywhere from 3-5 miles a day to keep in shape and keep myself lean.

I hope i answered most of the questions!

mikesbytes
12-22-2006, 12:30 PM
Those weights you push are really heavy for someone who does carido

Deciever
12-22-2006, 01:00 PM
cardio is key, lol

droman
12-23-2006, 11:31 AM
simple answer yes you can do. And yeah escpecailly since your more about power yeah thats the most imortant thing for you so that can defintly increase it while you lose your weight. So both can be done

teenathlete3030
12-23-2006, 10:01 PM
Here are some of the best articles I know of for getting stronger. Both are by Kelly Bagget, an absolute expert on athletic training and BB.

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/GettingStronger.html
This talks about getting stronger and is probably the best aritcle I've ever read on the subject...

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle/magpage.php?artID=85
...and this talks about the CNS and recovery of it compared to recovery of your muscles.