Creatine - Before or After Workout?

[Homie]

So, should I take my creatine before or after workout?
Or doesn't it matter?
What do you veterans do?

[HeavyBomber]

I take it directly after with dextrose.

[Built]

I take it first thing in the AM with water. (HB's way is better, but I keep forgetting to take it on the off days).

Take it when you'll remember to take it.

[WildJames]

Why can't people just use the search function? I did, and it answered at LEAST 10 questions that I would've had to ask that have been asked MANY MANY times, such as this one.

[Homie]

Why can't people just use the search function? I did, and it answered at LEAST 10 questions that I would've had to ask that have been asked MANY MANY times, such as this one.

OK smart ass, what did you search for? "Sould I take creatine before or after workout?" Somehow I doubt that would yield many hits. I suppose I could just search for "creatine", which I did, and it yielded many many hits, now I'm gonna have to browse through hundreds of threads to find the one thread that deals with what I want to know, which is when should creatine be consumed. I'm not interested in all the other things there are to discuss about creatine, such as cost, types of creatine, is it effective, etc...

So why don't you just answer my question instead of being a whiner?

[Belial]

OK smart ass, what did you search for? "Sould I take creatine before or after workout?" Somehow I doubt that would yield many hits.

Actually, I typed that into the search field (spelled properly of course) and specified the "supplements" forum and got 214 hits, five of which on the first page had decently long discussions about this very question.




Just throwing that out there. You know, my two cents.

[Chubrock]

NO NO NO Belial, that will never work. You know, the whole "intelligent" thing.

[WildJames]

OK smart ass, what did you search for? "Sould I take creatine before or after workout?" Somehow I doubt that would yield many hits. I suppose I could just search for "creatine", which I did, and it yielded many many hits, now I'm gonna have to browse through hundreds of threads to find the one thread that deals with what I want to know, which is when should creatine be consumed. I'm not interested in all the other things there are to discuss about creatine, such as cost, types of creatine, is it effective, etc...

So why don't you just answer my question instead of being a whiner?

Those guys beat me to it, owned.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Actually, I typed that into the search field (spelled properly of course) and specified the "supplements" forum and got 214 hits, five of which on the first page had decently long discussions about this very question.




Just throwing that out there. You know, my two cents.Yes. Proper spelling helps. :thumbup: And couple that with an actual effort made to try and search and you've got an amazing combo!

[korexite]

both. I take 3 caps purecee prior and 1 cap after. Though a lot of people just take before.

I dont reccomend monohydrate, though there are people that respond well to it and even some that dont bloat much from it.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

I dont reccomend monohydrateWhy?

[korexite]

I dont think its as good as other forms of creatine. Mainly because of the huge amounts of creatinine that is produces (because of hydrolysis prior to plasma uptake).

I am not saying that creatine mono does not work, it does. It however does not work well for everyone, in most people it causes bloating (creatinine) and more kidney stressing metabolites (creatinine in particular). and cost wise its not really much cheaper.

[Belial]

Oh boy.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

I dont think its as good as other forms of creatine. Mainly because of the huge amounts of creatinine that is produces (because of hydrolysis prior to plasma uptake).

I am not saying that creatine mono does not work, it does. It however does not work well for everyone, in most people it causes bloating (creatinine) and more kidney stressing metabolites (creatinine in particular). and cost wise its not really much cheaper.May I ask where you pulled all of that garbage from?

[Belial]

I'm just slightly surprised to read that not only does creatinine cause bloating (which is news to me, since there's nothing about the chemical whatsoever that I know of that causes bloat), but apparently also stresses the kidneys (only found to be toxic in the slightest in absurdly high doses in rats in renal failure...at least to my knowledge).

It's also a little surprising that creatine monohydrate would result in higher levels of creatinine as opposed to any other form of creatine, since creatinine levels correspond to both serum creatine AND PCr levels. This would mean that even if CEE is used, and the net result is (theoretically) more PCr but less serum creatine, the same amount of creatinine is produced at the end... only slightly later in the process.

Now the company line from the CEE people is that since CEE is carried directly into the cell, there is no outside accumulation of C-H2O (creatine monohydrate), which, since it has the "H2O" attached to it, clearly will cause water bloat if left outside the cell.

Yep. 5 grams of C-H2O a day will definitely bloat you. By molecular weight, that's 20% water. That's an extra *gasp* gram of water a day in the intercellular space. That'll blow you up like a balloon, as anybody who's ever had a drop of water will surely attest.


If I'm wrong, man, and there's stuff to back this up, please share, I will gladly stand corrected.

But please do share.

[Levantar]

I'm just slightly surprised to read that not only does creatinine cause bloating (which is news to me, since there's nothing about the chemical whatsoever that I know of that causes bloat), but apparently also stresses the kidneys (only found to be toxic in the slightest in absurdly high doses in rats in renal failure...at least to my knowledge).

It's also a little surprising that creatine monohydrate would result in higher levels of creatinine as opposed to any other form of creatine, since creatinine levels correspond to both serum creatine AND PCr levels. This would mean that even if CEE is used, and the net result is (theoretically) more PCr but less serum creatine, the same amount of creatinine is produced at the end... only slightly later in the process.

Now the company line from the CEE people is that since CEE is carried directly into the cell, there is no outside accumulation of C-H2O (creatine monohydrate), which, since it has the "H2O" attached to it, clearly will cause water bloat if left outside the cell.

Yep. 5 grams of C-H2O a day will definitely bloat you. By molecular weight, that's 20% water. That's an extra *gasp* gram of water a day in the intercellular space. That'll blow you up like a balloon, as anybody who's ever had a drop of water will surely attest.


If I'm wrong, man, and there's stuff to back this up, please share, I will gladly stand corrected.

But please do share.
I'm not exactly sure what he means by "bloating" it could be of of these 2 things:
1 . For some people, creatine monohydrate sits in the intestines without being completely and properly absorbed. If it's just sitting in the intestines, it's going to pull water into them. Too much water in the intestines is bad news, as it triggers diarrhea.

or

2. Creatine pulls water from other parts of the body to perform its work in cell volumization of the muscle. The whole point of creatine is that it pulls H2O from the body and creates a "superhydrtated" and enlarged muscle cell.

Obviously there are many other effects of Creatine (benefits) but the 2 examples I have wrote here may be what he poster meant by bloat. Example #1 being bad (happens with monohydrate only) and example #2 being good (as happens with all forms of creatine).

[Levantar]

So, should I take my creatine before or after workout?
Or doesn't it matter?
What do you veterans do?

I take half 20-30 minutes before my workout and half 20-30 minutes after. The reason? That's what the bottle tells me to do. Taking it before makes sense to me because a benefit is suppossed to be aid in enhancing ATP production thus allowing you work a little longer before tiring. The after part I'm not sure of but again...that's what the bottle says.

[Belial]

1 . For some people, creatine monohydrate sits in the intestines without being completely and properly absorbed. If it's just sitting in the intestines, it's going to pull water into them. Too much water in the intestines is bad news, as it triggers diarrhea.


But this has nothing to do with creatinine, which is what he said causes the bloat.

(By the way, I've never seen gastric upset with normal amounts (under 5 grams) and/or when creatine monohydrate's been properly mixed. From what I can tell, this gastric discomfort comes when a great deal is taken too quickly on a mostly empty stomach (no food bulk to delay stomach emptying).

There's still little clinical/chemical evidence for it whatsoever, (I'd guess that there's something about the crystalline structure of the compound that resists digestion unless it's dissolved in solution prior to ingestion), but I will agree that in my experience it can happen.

[Belial]

damn crickets.

[Cirino83]

Everything you need to know about creatine...
Here: http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/

and

Here: http://www.absolute-creatine.com/1.htm

I found these links posted in the past by someone else..forget who but can we just make it link to these whenever someone types the word "creatine"...is that possible to do?

[korexite]

I'm just slightly surprised to read that not only does creatinine cause bloating (which is news to me, since there's nothing about the chemical whatsoever that I know of that causes bloat), but apparently also stresses the kidneys (only found to be toxic in the slightest in absurdly high doses in rats in renal failure...at least to my knowledge).

It's also a little surprising that creatine monohydrate would result in higher levels of creatinine as opposed to any other form of creatine, since creatinine levels correspond to both serum creatine AND PCr levels. This would mean that even if CEE is used, and the net result is (theoretically) more PCr but less serum creatine, the same amount of creatinine is produced at the end... only slightly later in the process.

Now the company line from the CEE people is that since CEE is carried directly into the cell, there is no outside accumulation of C-H2O (creatine monohydrate), which, since it has the "H2O" attached to it, clearly will cause water bloat if left outside the cell.

Yep. 5 grams of C-H2O a day will definitely bloat you. By molecular weight, that's 20% water. That's an extra *gasp* gram of water a day in the intercellular space. That'll blow you up like a balloon, as anybody who's ever had a drop of water will surely attest.


If I'm wrong, man, and there's stuff to back this up, please share, I will gladly stand corrected.

But please do share.

its not the water that creatine is bound to that makes you bloat. its the creatinine.

creatinine is formed in the gut via hydrolysis, meaning that because of its structure very little actual creatine (percent wise) reaches the plasma. Creatinine produced via breakdown of cellular creatine is MINIMAL compared to the amount of creatinine produced via gut hydrolysis.

CEE and to a lesser extent other amino and chelate bound creatines avoid hydrolysis. CEE is particularly good at this because esterification makes it harder to hydrolyze and more permeable to the gut and intestinal membrane.

[korexite]

damn crickets.

ouch. you know some of us have other obligations. :thumbup:

[Homie]

Actually, I typed that into the search field (spelled properly of course) and specified the "supplements" forum and got 214 hits, five of which on the first page had decently long discussions about this very question.




Just throwing that out there. You know, my two cents.

See, I found that very hard to believe, so I typed that sentence in (properly spelled) and specified Supplements, just like you (claimed) you did, and what did I see:

Sorry - No matches

Not surprising to me. What is surprising is why you guys would make that stuff up.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

See, I found that very hard to believe, so I typed that sentence in (properly spelled) and specified Supplements, just like you (claimed) you did, and what did I see:

Sorry - No matches

Not surprising to me. What is surprising is why you guys would make that stuff up.Or maybe it's because you need to learn to use the search.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/search.php?searchid=881196

Or a more vague search: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/search.php?searchid=881203

And this is a big one you missed: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=22690

[Homie]

Or maybe it's because you need to learn to use the search.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/search.php?searchid=881196

Or a more vague search: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/search.php?searchid=881203

And this is a big one you missed: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=22690

What is there to learn? I'm not new to forums. And I clicked the links you gave me, it said:

Sorry - no matches

Except the last one, which was a link to a thread, not to a search results page. So I don't know what you guys are talking about.

[piff]

Jeez... take it easy on the guy. If everyone 'searched' everytime they had a question, there were be no new posts and no discussion. This guy's question should take a sentence or two to answer. Just answer it or don't answer and move along. No need to give him a lecture about being "lazy." Honestly, if it bothers you that much, maybe you should log off WBB and go have a beer or something

[LivinItUp]

Jeez... take it easy on the guy. If everyone 'searched' everytime they had a question, there were be no new posts and no discussion. This guy's question should take a sentence or two to answer. Just answer it or don't answer and move along. No need to give him a lecture about being "lazy." Honestly, if it bothers you that much, maybe you should log off WBB and go have a beer or something

Try to keep in mind that this topic is Creatine related. Now if someone does go search for Creatine and finds a thread like this one, which is mostly argument...chances are that person isn't going to want to even bother looking through anymore.

If one person said use the search button, that should be more than enough, I think the O.P. will get the idea.

[Belial]

See, I found that very hard to believe, so I typed that sentence in (properly spelled) and specified Supplements, just like you (claimed) you did, and what did I see:

Sorry - No matches

Not surprising to me. What is surprising is why you guys would make that stuff up.

See now, this is odd. I just typed it in again and got pages and pages of results, but clicking on those links didn't work either.

It honestly could be an issue with cookies or default search parameters on your browser. If that's the case, then I fully apologize. However, if you didn't try it first, then I do stand by what I said.

Homie- when you simplify your search parameters to, say, just creatine, how many results do you get? If your number and mine don't match up, there could be some other issue going on here. Some people have had problems in the past using all the BB functions.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

^^

What you said is far more insulting than anything that has been posted.

And you apparently missed this thread: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=65845

[Belial]

its not the water that creatine is bound to that makes you bloat. its the creatinine.

creatinine is formed in the gut via hydrolysis, meaning that because of its structure very little actual creatine (percent wise) reaches the plasma. Creatinine produced via breakdown of cellular creatine is MINIMAL compared to the amount of creatinine produced via gut hydrolysis.

CEE and to a lesser extent other amino and chelate bound creatines avoid hydrolysis. CEE is particularly good at this because esterification makes it harder to hydrolyze and more permeable to the gut and intestinal membrane.

What's interesting is that creatine has an exceptionally LOW rate of spontaneous hydrolysis in the gut; I'd love to see your references on this.

I was under the impression that at stomach pH creatine exists mostly in its protonated state, and the carbonyl is very stable due to the low concentration of any reactive alkaline species. In the small intestine, there are simply not enough protons available to complete the dehydration (i.e. the OH is stable and not removed). It's actually remarkably stable in all points in the gut, being most reactive around the pH range from 3 to 5 (which is a brief transition pH in the GI tract between the stomach and small intestine)

Of course, I still thought most of this was conjecture since we don't exactly know what the transition state of creatine is, nor definitively what the spontaneous conversion rate is at various pH levels in various tissues.

And yes, the ethyl ester may also make the carbonyl harder to attack, but certainly not impossible. Creatine phosphate is far easier to convert to creatinine because the phosphate makes a phenomenal leaving group. (It spontaneously converts at twice the rate)

Regardless, why would creatinine lead to bloat? There is nothing intrinsic to the molecule that would lead to indigestion. Certainly no more so than undigested creatine.

Please do get back to me on this... I know you've got other things to do, but you've really piqued my interest. Any sources you've got for this would be phenomenal.

[Buzzsaw]

^^

What you said is far more insulting than anything that has been posted.

And you apparently missed this thread: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=65845


1. I wouldn't be exaggerting if I said I've read literally hundreds of "use the search function!!!!" to new members. Why not a simple, "we've got an effective search feature at the top of the forum, just type in the key words"...or better yet, go to the next thread. Some people here must think they're the thread police. And calling people lazy who are trying to improve their lifestyle is out of line.

2. Not every question can be answered using the search feature. Or maybe it can but it would take wading through thousands of posts. Case in point, this thread.

Just my opinion.

[Belial]

Buzzsaw, while I agree that the "USE THE SEARCH" reply is overdone, at the very least people should TRY to use the search first. In this case, he admitted he hadn't even given it a shot.

Granted, in this case it turns out there may be a problem with the search, or with his configuration.

But people should really at least look for old threads before starting a new one. Sometimes in the process of finding the answer for your question, you do end up learning far more than you ever realized.

[the doc]

dont be fooled... ethyl esters are readily hydrolized in the stomach. The small intestine (where creatine is absorbed) also secretes esterases that readily cleave CEE to creatine.

[Belial]

I was hoping you'd add something.

Any insights on rate of spontaneous hydrolysis in the small intestine versus muscles/bloodstream?

[the doc]

I was hoping you'd add something.

Any insights on rate of spontaneous hydrolysis in the small intestine versus muscles/bloodstream?

hydrolysis of CEE or creatinine?

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

^^

How about both? ;)

[Belial]

Yes. Both, numbnuts.

[Belial]

I figured sterics was the biggest difference between the two anyway when it came to spontaneous hydrolysis.

[Belial]

How dare you people have lives? Come back here and answer my questions, dammit.

[the doc]

someone give the meathead a valium...lol

The bloodstream, tissues, and intestinal epithelium, intestinal secretions all contain esterases - enzymes that catalize the hydrolysis of esters in a nonspecific fashion. For instance, fruits contain a variety of esters that give them pleasing smells, and they are broken down in the intestine. Steroidal compounds (ex. testosterone, estrogens, etc) are injected as esters. As esterases hydrolize these compounds they partition out of their respective injection sites into protein binders in the blood (typically something like sex-hormone binding protein).

To my knowledge no one has studied esterase hydrolysis of CEE. However, informed speculation would say the rate would be relatively fast as it is water soluble with little steric hinderance.

creatinine is acutally not an ester but resembles an amide (well sort of anyhow). Its chemistry is more complex. In aqueous media, creatinine will spontaneously hydrolize to creatine in a pH dependant fashion. Neutral conditions cause the equilibrium to favor the creatine form. More acidic conditions favor creatinine. There was a paper i read some time ago from the early 1930s that studied this equilibrium extensively. One can extrapolate these principles to a muscle cell undergoing anaerobic metabolism (lactic acid producing glycolysis). As the pH of the muscle cell decreases with increasing work and the stores of creatine phosphate are depleted, the acidic conditions of the cell facilitate the equilibrium to creatinine. Creatinine is exported out of the cell. Now it just so happens that the kidney has a special transporter for creatinine and thus it is rapidly eliminated.

whew, ok now i need to get back to my pathetic life :D

[Belial]

creatinine is acutally not an ester but resembles an amide (well sort of anyhow). Its chemistry is more complex. In aqueous media, creatinine will spontaneously hydrolize to creatine in a pH dependant fashion. Neutral conditions cause the equilibrium to favor the creatine form. More acidic conditions favor creatinine. There was a paper i read some time ago from the early 1930s that studied this equilibrium extensively.

http://www.marshall.edu/etd/masters/diamond-brian-2005-ma.pdf

Found this is the meantime. This has a nice dataset on equilibria versus pH levels, as well as a few of the structures. It also has k values! Whee!

Of course, nothing either you nor I said, (nor this paper says, for that matter), would seem to support ANY of the claims made by CEE manufacturers. Whose company line is what a lot of the argument seems to be.

[the doc]

i agree 100% There is pretty much nothing to back up what they say. unfortunately, that's never stopped people from buying whatever snakeoil the salesman brings to town

[Slim Schaedle]

So what's the verdict on Kre-alkalyn creatine and creatine AKG?

(Btw, are more of the veteran WBBers (the doc) following Belial's example and getting 9-5 jobs which let them cure their boredom on here)

[Cirino83]

How dare you people have lives? Come back here and answer my questions, dammit.

HAHAHA LMAO :zipit:

[ddegroff]

To the OP: I've done:
5g preworkout
5g postworkout
2.5pre/post
5g a day when I remember

All of them work. Currently I'm doing 5g in the AM on workout days and 5g in the PM on rest days. Seems to really be working (probably all plecebo).