Whey & Casein

[Steven.Gaskell]

Hi guys. I just came accross this article about casein vs whey.
I also remembered the AtLarge protein supplement contains both slow and fast digesting proteins right? I think I've seen other powders mixed like this too.

According to this article, which says '' I know what you are thinking, "Why not just mix them together and get the best of both worlds?" Well, I am one step ahead of you. Casein has a unique property, in that ii coagulates in the stomach.12 This causes other proteins to be digested and absorbed much more slowly.'' seems to be giving off the idea taking the two at once doesn't do much good in these terms.

What do you think? Any truth to it? Does this mean mixing the two together is a waste? I know it's only one article, which leads me to beleive it's gonna be a battle of the references :P

''Casein does the same thing to whey, and other proteins for that matter. Think of it as a sort of binding gel.'' So naturally now I wonder if theres any evidence that shows combing both slow and fast acting proteins = best bioavailability. Sounds right in theory but does it actually work?
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satternorton.htm

[Slim Schaedle]

Hi guys. I just came accross this article about casein vs whey.
I also remembered the AtLarge protein supplement contains both slow and fast digesting proteins right? I think I've seen other powders mixed like this too.

According to this article, which says '' I know what you are thinking, "Why not just mix them together and get the best of both worlds?" Well, I am one step ahead of you. Casein has a unique property, in that ii coagulates in the stomach.12 This causes other proteins to be digested and absorbed much more slowly.'' seems to be giving off the idea taking the two at once doesn't do much good in these terms.

What do you think? Any truth to it? Does this mean mixing the two together is a waste? I know it's only one article, which leads me to beleive it's gonna be a battle of the references :P

''Casein does the same thing to whey, and other proteins for that matter. Think of it as a sort of binding gel.'' So naturally now I wonder if theres any evidence that shows combing both slow and fast acting proteins = best bioavailability. Sounds right in theory but does it actually work?
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satternorton.htm

There has been a lot of discussion recently (and past) pertaining to this topic. After reading the article, there are some concepts he presents (with cited sources) that I need to disect further.

To whoever responds next, I encourage you to actually read the entire article and plug those studies into pubmed before automatically dismissing it.

With that said, I have some reading to do.

[Slim Schaedle]

Interestingly, this same article is found here on WBB.

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=121

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satternorton.htm


I am kinda confused that these quotes
Casein has a unique property, in that is coagulates in the stomach 12. This causes other proteins to be digested and absorbed much more slowly. Have you ever tried to run through a vat of tar? It isn’t easy by any means. You would be moving very slowly. Casein does the same thing to whey, and other proteins for that matter. Think of it as a sort of binding gel. This simple little fact would nullify the biggest and most important attribute of whey. That is its ability to flood your system quickly with amino acid and stimulate protein synthesis.

It is not about just shoveling down 4,000 calories7 or X-amount of protein to keep your blood saturated with amino acids at all times. It is the about presenting your body with sudden change and increase of amino acids that stimulates protein synthesis rates 2, 5, 11, 20, 15, 13, 9

We know that whey is the most effective product to stimulate protein synthesis, and we know that casein is the most effective product to reduce protein breakdown. We can’t use them together because casein will nullify whey’s primary mode of action.

Consume casein based meal with in the next 3 hours.

That means before three hours has elapsed. Two hours would be an even safer bet. We want the levels of amino acids in our blood to drop a bit so we can create a dramatic increase again. The degree of protein synthesis is directly related to the degree of change in the levels of amino acids.

And finally, it is the rapid increase of amino acids that results in increases in protein synthesis.


come from an article with an editor's note promoting the use of Nitrean.



(and no folks, I am not on a crusade against Nitrean. I just like to look at all angles.)

[RedSpikeyThing]

But Nitrean's a blend. That article is against supplmenting with whey and casein at the same time....

Slim, what do you think about the "meal then whey then casein" idea?

[Slim Schaedle]

But Nitrean's a blend. That article is against supplmenting with whey and casein at the same time....

Slim, what do you think about the "meal then whey then casein" idea?

A blend consists of whey and casein, together ...at the same time.


I don't know what I think yet

[RedSpikeyThing]

A blend consists of whey and casein, together ...at the same time.

I thought that's what Nitrean was :scratch:

[Wild Cat McCane]

I think slim and myself, piggybacking his brains, have asked this alot.

the point i was trying to get at, or have answered was if casien slows down everything, whey can't be inferior since whey constitutes nearly 70% or more of all blends.

also it seems to me that whey by itself, followed by casien at a later time would be the best.

However, does it matter at all? because, we eat all damn day. so at what point besides the work out do we have these issues?

And the question that has gone unanswered every gd time i ask but get ripped on for saying anything has been who has evidence that the aminio acids are gone from the body after one hour of a whey protien shake. None.

[Davidelmo]

I have to admit I'm confused too.

My understanding is: (correct me if any of these points are wrong)

Benefit of whey: fast absorbing, rise in amino acids in blood stimulates protein synthesis.

Benefit of casein: slower absorbing, more steady stream of amino acids into bloodstream. Anti-catabolic effects.

Combining casein with whey would slow down the absorbtion of the whey, right?

Therefore why take them together?

Again, I'm not slamming Nitrean.. i'm just curious about the science.

[chris mason]

Hi guys. I just came accross this article about casein vs whey.
I also remembered the AtLarge protein supplement contains both slow and fast digesting proteins right? I think I've seen other powders mixed like this too.

According to this article, which says '' I know what you are thinking, "Why not just mix them together and get the best of both worlds?" Well, I am one step ahead of you. Casein has a unique property, in that ii coagulates in the stomach.12 This causes other proteins to be digested and absorbed much more slowly.'' seems to be giving off the idea taking the two at once doesn't do much good in these terms.

What do you think? Any truth to it? Does this mean mixing the two together is a waste? I know it's only one article, which leads me to beleive it's gonna be a battle of the references :P

''Casein does the same thing to whey, and other proteins for that matter. Think of it as a sort of binding gel.'' So naturally now I wonder if theres any evidence that shows combing both slow and fast acting proteins = best bioavailability. Sounds right in theory but does it actually work?
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satternorton.htm

He's wrong.

He is right that it may coagulate but he is wrong about it ruining the positive properties of whey.

[Slim Schaedle]

He's wrong.

He is right that it may coagulate but he is wrong about it ruining the positive properties of whey.

So what you are saying is that the conclusion drawn from the cited studies is wrong?


Why use this article on WBB along with promotion for Nitrean?

[chris mason]

So what you are saying is that the conclusion drawn from the cited studies is wrong?


Why use this article on WBB along with promotion for Nitrean?


It isn't a promotion for Nitrean we just added in the Nitrean plugs.

We posted the article even though we do no agree with it because we don't just publish stuff we agree with.

Yes, I am saying the conclusion the author is making is erroneous.

[Slim Schaedle]

It isn't a promotion for Nitrean we just added in the Nitrean plugs.
That's why I said an article along with promotion. The picture of the nitrean right next to the title may be misleading to some.


We posted the article even though we do no agree with it because we don't just publish stuff we agree with.

Are there any other articles posted on this site that we don't agree with so WBB members can be mindful of them?

[chris mason]

That's why I said an article along with promotion. The picture of the nitrean right next to the title may be misleading to some.



Are there any other articles posted on this site that we don't agree with so WBB members can be mindful of them?


Why are you using the term "we"? I used the term to represent AtLarge Nutrition and Daniel and I as the owners. I am sure there are plenty of articles on this site which contain information I do not agree with even some I have written in the past (the articles I wrote when I believed training to failure all of the time was best). As to which ones they are I do not have the time to sort through and read them all and create you a list. You have to understand something about my time, I run 2 businesses and work 7 days a week and who knows how many hours a day. My time is limited.

As to a picture of Nitrean in an article being misleading to some, well, I guess that just is what it is. We place blurbs in all of the articles on the site (or try to) because we own this site and want to advertise our products. If anyone gets confused by the picture then they have an open forum here in which to ask any question they may like.

[Maki Riddington]

Are there any other articles posted on this site that we don't agree with so WBB members can be mindful of them?


It doesn't matter what I do or don't agree with in terms of content. With time, new evidence emerges and opinions change.

[Wild Cat McCane]

I agree with that. I remember finding a WBB article that said..god what is the stuff called...glucosimine...something like that being an essetial supplement. I haven't seen anything though that doesn't say that that particular supplement raises esto in males. and is catabolic in nature. When I pointed that out, i couldn't find it anymore.

So thats good.

but this seems to be a rather big issue no?

[Maki Riddington]

What's a big issue? That "we" supposedly used the article to promote Nitrean when some of us don't agree with some of the content in the article?

[RedSpikeyThing]

What's a big issue? That "we" supposedly used the article to promote Nitrean when some of us don't agree with some of the content in the article?

No, the big issue is that the advertisement is very misleading. In an article that suggests the optimal type of protein supplement is not a blend you advertise for a blend. This suggests that the supplement being advertised is relevent to the article at hand, when in fact it is exactly what the article is against.

[Maki Riddington]

I can say with confidence that this won't be an issue now or in the future as we have revamped the way we publish/promote articles. Chalk this up as a minor slip

In the past I used a lot of second hand content. If you go back in the archives you'll probably find other things that may seem contradictory. Since the content change I have yet to have a chance go back through the archives and pull articles I feel should no longer stay on the site.

[RedSpikeyThing]

I'm confused. Are you removing your ads from those articles which contradict your beliefs, or only posting articles that support your products?

[Maki Riddington]

I'm confused. Are you removing your ads from those articles which contradict your beliefs, or only posting articles that support your products?

It was obviously a slight mistake to insert a plug for a product in an article that did not support it. This wont happen again because the way content on WBB is published now has changed.

How I personally feel or someone like Chris feels about a particular piece of content does not dictate whether or not an article will run. Of course this is within reason. I'm not going to publish an article that says you can tone the long head of your biceps by using 15.5 reps with a 1021 temp. That's plain stupid.

I will continue to publish content I feel is worth sharing with the members and viewers of this forum as long as I get the green light from Dan. Of course Dan trusts that I will exercise proper judgement in the content I accept from various writers.

My comment on pulling certain articles from the archives was made because I feel that certain content is severely outdated. It would be best if it were removed as it may cause confusion among people who are new to the board and are told to do a "search."

[RedSpikeyThing]

Thanks Maki. I think it is great that you guys take the input of your members seriously. I'm always impressed that you guys are willing to share credible research and let the community form their own opinions on the material. ALN is a great company I was under the impression that it's advertising tactics were falling to the level of some of the other supplement companies out there.

[Holto]

glucosimine...something like that being an essetial supplement.

I couldn't live without it because I would barely be able to walk.

I just used some Echinacea to fight off a nasty throat infection also.

If natural medicine didn't work why would people keep buying it???

[Wild Cat McCane]

guess you didn't read past the part where I said I can't find a study that didn't say it wasnt catabolic in nature and raised estrogen in males then?

[chris mason]

I can say this, I knew we had an ad in there and I knew the article was wrong yet did not request it be removed because I felt that only allowing content which agreed with our philosophy would make us just like every other website and company.

The ad is no big deal to me because the ad is for our product and we place similar ads in articles which have nothing to do with protein. In addition, I felt like promoting the right thing in the midst of an article which promotes the wrong thing is a good thing...:whazzup:

[Holto]

guess you didn't read past the part where I said I can't find a study that didn't say it wasnt catabolic in nature and raised estrogen in males then?

Generally I have no clue what you are trying to express. Your spelling and grammar is atrocious for someone who claims to be a university student.

I was responding to this:

I remember finding a WBB article that said..god what is the stuff called...glucosimine...something like that being an essetial supplement.

In previous posts you have scoffed at natural medicine in general.

[Wild Cat McCane]

combination of don't care, it's the internet, and to piss you off as well.

But in response to the topic, I think you really haven't said anything of worth. infact you have been one of the biggest critics of me...yet this kinda defeats you a bit...maybe we can be friends instead of being dinks every time?

[the doc]

when milk protein is ingested, it is denatured into whey (soluble) and casein (solid/curds) in the acidic pH of the stomach. As it moves into the small intestine, whey will be readily cleaved by peptidases and absorbed as it remains soluble. Casein will take longer to digest as the peptidases can only attack the surfaces of the curd.

[Davidelmo]

But surely the casein clumps would stick the whey together as well?

Even still, by introducing casein clumps you're still reducing the total surface area of the casein AND whey, right?

[the doc]

do an experiment and prove it to yourself. Get a tub of plain yogurt and pour it out over a strainer or cheesecloth(yogurt is milk that had been curded by acid producing bacteria and simulates what happens to milk in your stomach). collect the liquid - this is the whey (whey = soluble milk proteins and lactose)... the casein is the solid that is left behind. Did the casein "trap" the whey? not to any significant extent. In fact, the solid you have left is called "yogurt cheese" - and as we all know, cheese is casein.

[Davidelmo]

Oh right, that's cool, thanks doc! ;)

I love WBB!

[the doc]

no problem!

[Wild Cat McCane]

thats too simplistic. it may even be true in the most basic form, but applying what you think the body does and what it actually does are miles apart.

in the end that does not mean that the whey aminio acids have disappeared while these clumps in your stomach of casien are being digested.

[Davidelmo]

in the end that does not mean that the whey aminio acids have disappeared while these clumps in your stomach of casien are being digested.

I dont think anyone ever said that

[the doc]

wild cat- it is a simple model that demonstrates my point

since i dont know what i'm talking about, why dont you enlighten me?

[Wild Cat McCane]

oh no no no. I wasn't saying you didn't know what you are talking about at all :)
I was just saying that was a super simplistic model you got there.
and with the topic of whether or not casien sticks on the whey.....
i dont know, wasn't trying to pick a fight :)

[the doc]

cool mang, sorry about the misunderstanding

[Holto]

combination of don't care, it's the internet, and to piss you off as well.

:zipit: :zipit: :zipit:

Touche.

:clap:

[neilsabo]

Casein has a unique property, in that is coagulates in the stomach 12. This causes other proteins to be digested and absorbed much more slowly. Have you ever tried to run through a vat of tar? It isn’t easy by any means. You would be moving very slowly. Casein does the same thing to whey, and other proteins for that matter. Think of it as a sort of binding gel. This simple little fact would nullify the biggest and most important attribute of whey. That is its ability to flood your system quickly with amino acid and stimulate protein synthesis.
so it's false that casein protein has this property of "blocking" whey from being digested quickly when taken together?...did they just make that up?

[chris mason]

so it's false that casein protein has this property of "blocking" whey from being digested quickly when taken together?...did they just make that up?


It might attenuate whey's absorption rate a bit, but not to a significant degree.

[PoutineEh]

i think there is enough anecdotal evidence to support that nitrean is better than whey alone, regardless of what exactly happens inside your stomach/body