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Nikkiwomang
12-09-2006, 09:06 AM
I am wondering if curcuit training is sufficient for toning. I am not trying to body build just lose some weight and tone. I just want to make sure I am toning up. I usually do curcuit training 5 days a week and weight lifting once a week. I would like to continue that program BUT I may not always be able to pull it off. So if I have to will the curcuit training be enough 6 days a week for toning? Oh FYI I jog 2 miles after every curcuit session if that info is needed.

Thanks!

My goals, to lose weight, build muscle and tone.

Ruffian
12-09-2006, 10:56 AM
You will soon realize two things...

1) that toning is an evil word that everyone on this board hates.
2)That this was posted in the wrong section...

Now, that being said. What kind of circuit training are you doing? Cardio type circuit training? Weight circuit training? 'curves' style circuit training?

You seem like you are fairly dedicated to this, so if the "toned" look is what you want then weightlift. Jogging will not help you get this look, I used to run a ton and never got any where near the look I have now.

What are your STATS? (age/weight) What do you do for weightlifting currently. It is going to be hard for me to sugest things to you with such a small amount of info!

Nikkiwomang
12-09-2006, 11:24 AM
I jog to lose weight, and because i enjoy it.

I do the curves type of curcuit training. I apologize for posting in the "wrong" section I am really new to this.

When I weight lift i use machines at a gym. Another words no free weights. Again this working out stuff is new to me and I have never worked out in my life. I am not trying to be muscle woman. I just want to have stregth to be able to do things like rock climb, snowboard, ski, and just all around play without being hindered by lack of endourance etc.

So if toning is a bad word then what would you call it? Nicely shaped?

I want to lose weight so im not lugging around all that fat while trying to workout and get into shape. I just want to be healthy. Again I am still at the early stages.

I am a 31 year old female, my weight is 193 as of this morning.

Built
12-09-2006, 12:01 PM
Hi there

Sorry about the nomenclature confusion - there really is no such thing as "toning" - it's a word made up by the fitness industry - but I think I know what you mean: you want to drop FAT, and firm up the muscle you have without building more, right?

Okay - weirdly enough, this isn't accomplished through cardio. I was a fat jogger - ran 10k 3x a week. TRUST me, I was far from toned at 40% bodyfat, which is roughly where I was back in my jogging days.

First thing to look at is your diet.

If you're not already doing so, please track on www.fitday.com (http://www.fitday.com) for a week, and post up your "average" calories, grams of protein, carb and fat. This is tricky over Christmas, I know, but do your best to give me a "typical" week.

I don't care WHAT your food choices are - just the macronutrients as listed above.

The results you seek will come from creating a caloric deficit (mostly through diet) combined with some heavy resistance training (no, circuits won't do for this) and a little moderate cardio (say, 20 minutes 3-5 times a week) for a little dietary flexibility and heart health.

Sound good?

Nikkiwomang
12-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Okay thank you so much for your help. here is my fitday. i really like this website i feel i have a better idea of my food intake. I never thought i ate so bad until i started this. Ive been tracking my food intake for about 10 months now. This is my average.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/vlliberty/fitdaymonthreport.jpg

Again I appreciate direction and suggestions. I am open to constructive criticism, i dont get my feelers hurt.

Built
12-10-2006, 02:06 PM
OMG your calories are LOOOOOW!

Why so low? Are you like 4'11" tall or something? I diet on about 1800-1900 calories, and I'm only around 135 lbs.

Nikkiwomang
12-10-2006, 02:25 PM
OMG your calories are LOOOOOW!

Why so low? Are you like 4'11" tall or something? I diet on about 1800-1900 calories, and I'm only around 135 lbs.

Actually i am short....... 5 foot. Yes it is set low. I just eat a lot of low calorie foods.

I usually shoot for 1200 a day, but i try to fluctuate it give or taking 100 calories here and there.

Built
12-10-2006, 08:48 PM
What is maintenance for you?

Nikkiwomang
12-10-2006, 09:46 PM
hahahaha I can't remember what maintenance is but I think its 1800. I figured all this out a long time ago with my nutritionist and I just don't remember the maintenance.

Built
12-11-2006, 12:32 AM
Okay, no, that's not what I mean. That's just an estimate, and honestly, for your height, that sounds a little high (althouth I don't know what you weigh).

I mean how many calories do you actually have to consume to neither gain nor lose weight? This is found by tracking both calories and weight for a while. It's a measurement, not an estimate.

nhlfan
12-11-2006, 02:19 AM
^she weighs 193.

Nikkiwomang
12-11-2006, 09:27 AM
I don't mess with the not gaining or not losing weight. I never bothered to track that. I have been just gauging it by how many calories needed daily in order to lose 1 to 2 pounds a week. I don't really care to know my maintenance at this point. I figure when I reach my weight loss goal then I can experiment with that. But for now I do not see what good it would do me when I plan on losing quite a lot of weight, my maintenance will be totally different once I reach my goal weight. But if you have any insight as to the benefits of knowing my maintenance caloric intake right now I am definately open to your imput. I mean look at you why wouldn't I at least listen to what you have to say. You look great Built!

For now the 1200 a day is working. I feel great, I have energy and I do not see any problems as of yet.

And yes I do weigh in at 193 right now. And I am 5'. So far I have lost 57 pounds.

Ruffian
12-11-2006, 10:28 AM
That is EXCEPTIONALLY low!

I am 5'6" and weigh 142 and my maintanance is 2000!

Its important you understand that if you push your calories too low your body will go into starvation mode... Yes, you may loose poundages but a lot of those poundages will be from muscle and once you hit the point you want you can end up being exceptionally tiny but with not a lick of muscle. It happened to me a year and a half ago, I dieted without researching it properly and dropped a ton of weight (I ate protein but wasnt careful with how I worked out). I weighed 115 lbs at 5'6" and had NO muscle. Within 6 months of starting to lift heavy and eat alot I gained 20 lbs!

That being said, you will be MUCH better off if you dont diet *quite* as hard and start to lift heavy. If you want throw in 20 m of cardio here and there just to give you a bit more of a boost in the fat-loss direction. But you will never see the definition you want to see if you dont start weightlifting! I ran track for YEARS, sprinting and long-distance and I never saw an ounce of the definition I have now. I was tiny but I was not hard, and I definately wasnt "toned" as you would call it. That being said, if you are worried about getting "big" then dont be, you wont get big unless you try to.

Do WBB1 or BGB for the next little while, I assure you that you will like what you see! Id bump up your calories *at least* 2-300 because I have a feeling your body is in TOTAL starvation mode at the moment. 1100 calories is hardly anything at all... wow.... Thats like, my brunch. Continue to keep those protein levels up though!!!

Thats just my $0.02, take it or leave it.

Nikkiwomang
12-11-2006, 10:37 AM
I do appreciate all of your advice, like I said this is all new to me. I'd say ive been doing the 1200 calorie intake for about 2months now. Maybe i am starving. I really don't see me eating more than i do, but I will try. I do eat 5 times a day as it is. but very small meals enough to feel satisfied.

ArchAngel777
12-11-2006, 11:19 AM
If 1200 calories works for you and you are losing weight, then I see no reason to worry. Besides, the 1200 calories = starvation is a myth. Starvation is a very loose term these days. True starvation is the people over in Somolia that have no muscle mass or fat, and they weigh about 100 pounds for a 5'10" male. THAT is starvation... A person with 25%+ BF isn't starving by any means, even if they eat no food for months and months and months.

The great thing about calorie intake is that you can change it at any time. So eat 1,200 when you want, if you are happy with the results, keep at it. If you can stay sane, go for it. When the weight stops you have probably lost all the weight you need to in the first place, your appitite will likely have increased and you will be back on your way to eating 1,800 - 2,000 you need to maintain your body weight.

Just make sure to get enough protein and fats out of those 1,200 calories. Keeps carbs the lowest precentage of those calories.

Anthony
12-11-2006, 11:38 AM
What happens when 1200 isn't low enough to lose weight? 1000? 700? You're probably not meeting your minimum nutritional needs as it is and it will catch up with you sooner or later. ESPECIALLY with the amount of needless aerobic activity you perform.

My advice is

1) bump up your calories to reset your metabolism
2) stop lifting on machines
3) circuits are fine, but you still gotta lift heavy on a regular basis
4) cut the aerobic activity down to a minimum, I understand you enjoy it, but it's not doing much for your performance or physique.

ArchAngel777
12-11-2006, 01:16 PM
What happens when 1200 isn't low enough to lose weight? 1000? 700? You're probably not meeting your minimum nutritional needs as it is and it will catch up with you sooner or later. ESPECIALLY with the amount of needless aerobic activity you perform.

My advice is

1) bump up your calories to reset your metabolism
2) stop lifting on machines
3) circuits are fine, but you still gotta lift heavy on a regular basis
4) cut the aerobic activity down to a minimum, I understand you enjoy it, but it's not doing much for your performance or physique.

That is more of an "if" statement than a "when", unless you are talking years down the road. There are a lot more variables than just using a set amount of calories as an RDA anyway. There is the solid versus liquid variable, where you will burn more to breakdown a solid food than you would have a liquid food. Thus, 500 calories of liquid will provide more energy than 500 calories of a solid. Not to mention, some foods are more nutrient dense than others and of course there is always the fact that not every serving of the same food you eat provides the same nutrients, or the same amount as the last one you ate. They are just averages pasted on the label. Some of it would depend on the soil that the plant,fruit grew from, etc... There really isn't a sure way to know if you truly are getting all your iron, or if you are getting your all the calcium you need, unless you are supplimenting with a vitaman, and who knows, even thoughts may vary from pill to pill.

I agree that 1,200 is low, but I do not agree that it is suicidal as some may suggest, unless you keep it there indefinately. That would be bad to do. I dissagree that the body adapts immediately to a calorie deficit. If it does, what is the time frame? Where is the proof on this time frame? At what point does the body lower it's own BMR? Is it 24%, 52%? Is it after 2 weeks, 1 day and 3 hours? This is my only issue with these claims, everyone preaches it, but no one can answere these questions, because the concrete research on this is silent. The only thing we really know is that at some point, the body does lower its BMR, but how and why and when we do not really know, for certain.

Use the scale the judge. Take a multi-vitaman, once in the morning, once in the evening. Eat healthy. Beyond this, I am just not a believer in a set rule of 2,000 calories/day.

Ruffian
12-11-2006, 01:17 PM
Starvation is not a myth, it is a mode the body goes into so it can prevent itself from looking like a 5'10" 100 lb somalian. It increases the number of fat cells (which cannot be removed without liposuction might I add) in order to increase its fat storage in the event of true starvation.

True, if she is loosing weight at 1200 then good for her, all Im trying to say is that more-then-likely she has (or will) loose all of her muscle mass in the process and since she is trying to look 'toned' she is really not doing herself any favours. She could diet a little slower and lift weights, this way she would increase her muscle mass which would allow her to reach her goals even faster.

ArchAngel777
12-11-2006, 01:25 PM
Starvation is not a myth, it is a mode the body goes into so it can prevent itself from looking like a 5'10" 100 lb somalian. It increases the number of fat cells (which cannot be removed without liposuction might I add) in order to increase its fat storage in the event of true starvation.

True, if she is loosing weight at 1200 then good for her, all Im trying to say is that more-then-likely she has (or will) loose all of her muscle mass in the process and since she is trying to look 'toned' she is really not doing herself any favours. She could diet a little slower and lift weights, this way she would increase her muscle mass which would allow her to reach her goals even faster.

Ok, then can you explain to me when starvation begins? At what calorie level does starvation begin? Does this figure take into affect a completely solid food diet, or does it include some liquid calories? What is the macronutrient breakdown of this starvation calorie level? Did it include a multi-vitaman?

This lady is 193. Now, without being rude, that is quite a bit over weight, unless she is packing tons of muscle, which I am doubting. When people hold onto a lot of fat, the body is more apt to use it when calories are pushed lower. This is the general reason that fatter people can handle diets like PSMF. A lean person needs to be more careful, because the body does need fat. If you are already lean, you do need to be careful.

Nikkiwomang
12-11-2006, 01:28 PM
FYI, yes I can assure you that most of my body is definately fat. I don't get easily offended. so its ok.

ArchAngel777
12-11-2006, 01:37 PM
FYI, yes I can assure you that most of my body is definately fat. I don't get easily offended. so its ok.

Ok, just wanted to make sure. Keep at it Nikki. I was a former fatty myself just a little bit over a year ago I decided to get back into fitness after a 7 year lay-off. I was 260 and now I am 178 and have never felt healthier in my entire life. Stick with it, you will not only look better, but you will feel better!

On nother note, I agree with Anthony as far as reducing your cardio intake. You do not have to eliminate it, but it would be wise to suppliment it with a shake (can sneak those extra calories in there) before or immediately after.

You have to set rules and guidelines for yourself. Me, I made a rule that if I decided to do cardio, I had to somehow ingest another 300 calories around that time period (either slightly before or after). That way, if I didn't feel like it, I simply skimmed that meal. If I felt like it, I ate that meal. It is a great way to balance calorie intake versus expendature and will assist in offsetting the catabolic nature of that cardio :D

Nikkiwomang
12-11-2006, 01:43 PM
I currently do the whey protein right after a workout. i count that towards my caloric intake (is that ok?). I make it with water though so I dont get any other calories other than the protein itself. I am lactose intollerant and I was doing it with soymilk but for some reason just decided to do it with water because I could (most people i hear can't stomach it).

ArchAngel777
12-11-2006, 01:46 PM
I currently do the whey protein right after a workout. i count that towards my caloric intake (is that ok?). I make it with water though so I dont get any other calories other than the protein itself. I am lactose intollerant and I was doing it with soymilk but for some reason just decided to do it with water because I could (most people i hear can't stomach it).

Are you lactose interolant? I would use regular milk, personally. As far as counting that shake towards total calories? Yes and no, meaning, yes it counts, because you certainly ate it! But, no, that should be in addition to the 1,200 you are currently eating. My opinion...

Edit ** Somehow I missed the lactose intolerant in your post! I am not lactose intolerant, so I might be wrong on this, but can't make buy the special cows milk that is designed for people with it? I would avoid soy.

Edit 2 ** I also recall there being a pill or suppliment you can take that helps you breakdown the lactose, thus allowing you to drink normal milk? Not that it is that big of a deal. If you can stand water mixed in with your whey, go for it. I simply detest it.

Nikkiwomang
12-11-2006, 01:48 PM
yeah i can't have milk :(

Nikkiwomang
12-11-2006, 06:59 PM
I tried really hard to cut my jog in half. My brain, heart and body said NOOOOOOOOOOOO keep going. It just feels good to me. I would have been really feeling like i was cheating myself. So I did the two miles and loved every friggin minute of that jog!!! :)

Bohizzle
12-11-2006, 09:39 PM
I tried really hard to cut my jog in half. My brain, heart and body said NOOOOOOOOOOOO keep going. It just feels good to me. I would have been really feeling like i was cheating myself. So I did the two miles and loved every friggin minute of that jog!!! :)

why not try jogging harder for shorter periods of time? still works ur heart, and i guarantee u won't feel cheated :D, and it'll eat less muscle!

Anthony
12-12-2006, 06:15 AM
Arch,

Why do most people lose muscle and strength on a cut? According to you, their extra fat should be able to feed them, right? So why do they lose muscle and not just fat? I mean, based on your theory, we could simply stop eating for 3 weeks, our body would magically burn every last ounce of fat on our bodies, and we'd all look like a greek god(dess).

Obviously this doesn't happen. Why not?

Because when you drop your calories too fast, your body responds by slowing down metabolism and getting rid of calorie expensive muscle while at the same time storing every last ounce of fat it can. It's our survival mechanism. And yes, it is well documented. Obviously the timeframe and severity varies from person to person, hence the reason you don't have a stopwatch number to satisfy you. But take a look at any of the popular diets and you'll notice almost all of them have refeeds. Why is that?? Hint: because it brings you out of "starvation" mode, resets your metabolism, etc.

The bottom line is simple. Dropping calories to an arbitrary number like 1200 when weighing 193 is a good way to crash your metabolism. It's DEFINITELY not a matter of "if" but WHEN will she plateau. And then what? She's already performing excessive aerobic activity ... so how will she create a deficit? More jogging? That's another hour of jogging for a measly 500-750 calorie deficit?

She already admitted she has no idea what her maintenance calories are. So why did she pick 1200 to start her cut?

This is what I'm trying to get at. Do things slow. Be patient. You didn't get fat overnight and you certainly won't get unfat overnight. Develop habits for the long haul and you'll be better served. This quick fix **** never works. Ever.

ericg
12-12-2006, 06:50 AM
why not try jogging harder for shorter periods of time? still works ur heart, and i guarantee u won't feel cheated :D, and it'll eat less muscle!

I agree. Try doing some HIIT style cardio. I can understand that you love to jog for mental health but it will take a toll on your body in the long run. Running 2+ miles 5x/week is placing a lot of pounding on your joints, especially at 193lbs. Try cutting the jogging down to 2x/wk then to 1x/wk and sub in some HIIT in place of the steady state (SS) cardio. Though doing HIIT cardio 5x/wk would be something that I wouldnt recommend since that can take away from your weight training. Focus on weight training, add in some HIIT 3x/wk and one SS cardio session, maybe on an "off/rest" day, and you should be fine. Also, if you search the forums a bit you will see that HIIT cardio is actually a more efficient way to "burn fat" than SS. Dont forget though that diet is still the major player in losing fat/"toning"

Anthony is spot on with the diet. A perfect example of this is my mom, god bless her. She has to be in the 230lb range at 5' tall and eats like a bird. I remember a few years back I actually tracked her cals and they were at about 1000 per day. I know she isnt as active as you are but she doesnt sit in the couch all day either. She obviously has a problem and I have talked to her about it before but it is hard to break old habits.

So YOU should start to develop some new healthy habits that you can carry with you for the rest of your life.

Nikkiwomang
12-12-2006, 07:54 AM
I didn't just one day start the 1200 calories a day program. It came down from 1400, from 1600, from 1800. But I hear you guys. I am reading and soaking it all in. Of course your diets are going to look crazy different from mine, but its not as if I don't eat. I eat about 5 times a day. But anyway I am not here to tell you what i am doing is right because I am not an expert and this is all new to me so i could be doing this all wrong as you all have said many times in this thread.

Soooooo this brings me to the reason why I am here to get advice and tips from you all. Again thanks for all your imput and all of the advice given it will be taken into consideration. But most of all I do need to talk to my doctor about all of this. :)

EDIT: Been reading up on HITT and I'd have to say it makes sense. I think I can adjust my workouts in order to try this out. I'm actually excited to see how this will work. Thanks for all of your help!

ArchAngel777
12-12-2006, 10:47 AM
Arch,

Why do most people lose muscle and strength on a cut? According to you, their extra fat should be able to feed them, right? So why do they lose muscle and not just fat? I mean, based on your theory, we could simply stop eating for 3 weeks, our body would magically burn every last ounce of fat on our bodies, and we'd all look like a greek god(dess).



I never stated that, you are actually putting words in my mouth so as to make an arguement. :windup:



Obviously this doesn't happen. Why not?

Because when you drop your calories too fast, your body responds by slowing down metabolism and getting rid of calorie expensive muscle while at the same time storing every last ounce of fat it can. It's our survival mechanism. And yes, it is well documented. Obviously the timeframe and severity varies from person to person, hence the reason you don't have a stopwatch number to satisfy you. But take a look at any of the popular diets and you'll notice almost all of them have refeeds. Why is that?? Hint: because it brings you out of "starvation" mode, resets your metabolism, etc.



What is your defination of dropping calories to fast? Is this an accute drop in calories of a certain percentage? If you don't know what this magic number is, then why do you act as if you do?

The refeed section is somewhat of a joke. People will naturally get their refeeds without planning them. Say, lets see... Christmas is coming up, I don't have to plan any refeed, because I am pretty certain me and 99.9% of the population will be overeating around that holiday. Same goes for a friends B-Day party or any other special occasions that crop up numerous times each year.

As for muscle loss, it is probably more so in people who do not lift weights. The statement, 'use it or lose it' applies here. Don't work your muscles, then they go away.



The bottom line is simple. Dropping calories to an arbitrary number like 1200 when weighing 193 is a good way to crash your metabolism. It's DEFINITELY not a matter of "if" but WHEN will she plateau. And then what? She's already performing excessive aerobic activity ... so how will she create a deficit? More jogging? That's another hour of jogging for a measly 500-750 calorie deficit?

She already admitted she has no idea what her maintenance calories are. So why did she pick 1200 to start her cut?


This is nonsense talk over crashing your metabolism. Yes, it slows, but it never slows down enough to completely compensate for the weight loss. Besides, easy enough to raise it again, isn't it? Almost everyone agrees that eating higher for 2 weeks will reset the metabolism to burn faster. So where is the harm? Where is this evil that you speak of?




This is what I'm trying to get at. Do things slow. Be patient. You didn't get fat overnight and you certainly won't get unfat overnight. Develop habits for the long haul and you'll be better served. This quick fix **** never works. Ever.

As already explained before, it is easy to tell someone to be patient when you already have the physique and level of fitness that you do. When people are overly fat, they are not interested in your slow and patient advice. The same example can be said for those who are singler and have not yet been married. Dating a girl and being engaged to her is totally different than when you get married. All the married couples tell to wait and not be in a rush, but what do most people do? They rush into it and find out that life is not a bed of roses. Now they know! But they didn't really know until they experienced it for themselves. That is just one side of the coin.

Now, if we move on to motivation. Some of you guys suggest a 200 - 300 calorie decifit a day. Do you realize how unmotivating that is for someone who is carrying 60+ pounds of fat? Of course, unless you were ever fat, you cannot understand what it is like from their view point. I have the advantage of being fit, then fat and then fit again. I can see BOTH viewpoints. I am sure every former fatty on this site will agree with me when they I say that sometimes we ate less than recomended, sometimes we did things that were frowned upon by this community, but by golly, we sure damned did it! But we stuck with it! Now that we are in your shoes (Anthony, Mr Fit!) taking this slow is the right choice for us, it makes sense.

We agree on many things Anthony, so let us not put words in each others mouths.

Anthony
12-12-2006, 11:28 AM
Arch,

Haha, I'm not trying to start an argument with you. I think you're a good guy and had no malicious intent with my post. If it came across that way, I do apologize.

But .... I didn't put words into your mouth, I explained why dropping calories too low and/or too fast would trick your body into thinking it was starving even if you carried extra body fat. Technically you're not starving, but your body still reacts in the same manner and starts slowing things down, dropping muscle, storing more fat, etc. You're basically creating prime conditions to stay fat even if you end up smaller.

The harm in dropping this low?

1) she's probably not meeting minimum macronutrient requirements.
2) she's probably not meeting minimum micronutrient requirements.
3) she's getting to a point where any lower and she WILL be starving.

Even if 1 & 2 can be proven to be false, there's still the issue of ... where does she go from here? She will eventually stop losing weight at 1200, guaranteed. Take a look at her recent post. She went from 1800-1600-1400-1200 ... if she was losing on 1800, why did she go lower? And if she was losing on 1600, why did she go lower? Etc. Because your body adapts by either slowing down metabolism and/or dropping calorie expensive tissue. The same thing is true for people who bulk. If you could gain weight on 3000 calories, why would there ever be a need to increase? Because you end up increasing your metabolism and you build even more expensive tissue. It's pretty straight forward stuff.

I would prefer to see calorie drops in the range of 5-10% and only after no change has been made in 2-3 weeks and training/sleep have been SPOT ON. As I said before, there isn't an exact percentage of "too fast" because there are a lot of variables - both internal and external. HOWEVER, based on her level of activity and body weight, I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone agree that 1200 is a good choice.

Now, my next comment may come across as harsh, but it's really just tough love.

I really don't care if my recommendation for a slow cut makes you warm and fuzzy inside.

WHAT I DO CARE ABOUT IS THAT YOU DEVELOP LIFE LONG HABITS THAT PROMOTE HEALTH AND PERFORMANCE.

And if you don't start learning this now ... then when?

;)

Nikkiwomang
12-12-2006, 11:41 AM
I like it when people are tough with me so let me have it. You don't have to make nice with me. I want help and I respond well to the tough love rather than the gentle stuff.

I'm looking at my fitday and I am having some troubles with highering my daily caloric intake. Its going to be hard to return to the higher calories. I have a feeling i am going to gain weight too.

Con
12-12-2006, 11:47 AM
I can see where Arch is coming from when he said this:

As already explained before, it is easy to tell someone to be patient when you already have the physique and level of fitness that you do. When people are overly fat, they are not interested in your slow and patient advice.

But the bigger picture is what matters.

nikki im glad your taking the advise. You will definately be better in the long run. If you think about it, what would you rather have:
1. Acheieve the body you want just to lose it becuase of bad habits?
2. Take a little longer but be able to maintain it?

Not only is losing what you've achieved affect your body, its also very mentally taxing IMO.

Gl and start a journal!

Nikkiwomang
12-12-2006, 11:56 AM
I think i may have lost some sight and admit the 1200 calorie thing is probably me wanting it so bad.

But my goal in the begining was just to be healthy and to do it right. I guess in a way this is a cry for help? I want to get back to that mentality again. If it takes me a couple of years, it takes me a couple of years. I am just so affraid of fat. I have lived all my life being fat and sometimes it really messes with my head when i see any weight gain.

ArchAngel777
12-12-2006, 12:12 PM
Arch,

Haha, I'm not trying to start an argument with you. I think you're a good guy and had no malicious intent with my post. If it came across that way, I do apologize.

But .... I didn't put words into your mouth, I explained why dropping calories too low and/or too fast would trick your body into thinking it was starving even if you carried extra body fat. Technically you're not starving, but your body still reacts in the same manner and starts slowing things down, dropping muscle, storing more fat, etc. You're basically creating prime conditions to stay fat even if you end up smaller.

The harm in dropping this low?

1) she's probably not meeting minimum macronutrient requirements.
2) she's probably not meeting minimum micronutrient requirements.
3) she's getting to a point where any lower and she WILL be starving.

Even if 1 & 2 can be proven to be false, there's still the issue of ... where does she go from here? She will eventually stop losing weight at 1200, guaranteed. Take a look at her recent post. She went from 1800-1600-1400-1200 ... if she was losing on 1800, why did she go lower? And if she was losing on 1600, why did she go lower? Etc. Because your body adapts by either slowing down metabolism and/or dropping calorie expensive tissue. The same thing is true for people who bulk. If you could gain weight on 3000 calories, why would there ever be a need to increase? Because you end up increasing your metabolism and you build even more expensive tissue. It's pretty straight forward stuff.

I would prefer to see calorie drops in the range of 5-10% and only after no change has been made in 2-3 weeks and training/sleep have been SPOT ON. As I said before, there isn't an exact percentage of "too fast" because there are a lot of variables - both internal and external. HOWEVER, based on her level of activity and body weight, I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone agree that 1200 is a good choice.

Now, my next comment may come across as harsh, but it's really just tough love.

I really don't care if my recommendation for a slow cut makes you warm and fuzzy inside.

WHAT I DO CARE ABOUT IS THAT YOU DEVELOP LIFE LONG HABITS THAT PROMOTE HEALTH AND PERFORMANCE.

And if you don't start learning this now ... then when?

;)


Anthony,

No problem, I didn't think you were being harsh or had malicous intent.


Even if 1 & 2 can be proven to be false, there's still the issue of ... where does she go from here?

She could up her calories for two weeks to reset her metabolism, and then go back to down to 1,800, then 1,600, then 1,400, and then 1,200. She could then repeat this process until she has lost all the weight she needs to.


I would prefer to see calorie drops in the range of 5-10% and only after no change has been made in 2-3 weeks and training/sleep have been SPOT ON. As I said before, there isn't an exact percentage of "too fast" because there are a lot of variables - both internal and external. HOWEVER, based on her level of activity and body weight, I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone agree that 1200 is a good choice.

Totally agree with you. I don't believe that 1,200 is a 'good choice', but I also don't believe she is killing herself, or doing something that is going to destroy her life. There are best, great, good, neutral, poor, bad, and worst choices. All through life we get to pick and chose which one seems to fit us for the time beind.

But, consider this. Even your average dietician (insert joke, just kidding!) will state that the health risks associated with being overweight are GREATER than the health risk of dropping the weight to fast. In other words, for health reasons, it is probably better to agressively slash calories than not to when overweight. Pick a BF% number and apply accordingly! :D


I really don't care if my recommendation for a slow cut makes you warm and fuzzy inside.


You are doing what you should, giving the best advice. But sometimes the best advice isn't the best advice, because if the user doesn't take that best advice and does something completely stupid that could have been avoided, should a less "best" advice be given. Yes, I don't even understand what I wrote there... LOL... Ok, let me give this example...

The safest way to not get an STD is simply not to have sex. Ok, that is the BEST advice to not getting an STD. However, is the advice good? Technically, it is. But then why is there a backup plan, a less damaging one? Because we know that people will do it anyway! So, we device ways to elminate this. We have creams, medicines, condems, etc... We create many viable alternatives that are not the "best". So, that is what I am getting at. Having only one way or the highway, might be the best advice in the world, but applied in a situation where that advice is not going to be heeded, then alternate solutions is better than 1 rigid one... That is where I am coming from.

Make sense?

Anthony
12-12-2006, 01:00 PM
In the long run, most diets don't result in weight loss. Why? Because proper habits were never learned and eventually things go back to "normal." You've been there yourself. And every single person who struggles with this has been there too. They eventually "fall off the wagon." Don't think your struggle is unique - it happens to the skinny guy trying to get big too.

But what I'm trying to show is that if you teach yourself good habits, and I mean true habits, then you'll be set for the rest of your life no matter what goal you choose.

The problem is it takes a while to develop real lasting habits. That's why it's important to start right now. Yeah, we are all young and will do it when we have time, or when we reach our goals, etc. Problem is, that **** is a mirage - every time you get close, it just moves further away. So start now.

And your analogy isn't that great (sorry, it was funny, but doesn't apply here). I'm not asking you or anyone else to sacrifice anything. In fact, I'm asking you to indulge just a little more than you are. Sure, the results might not be as fast, but I guarantee if you do things right you can continue to get stronger & faster WHILE CUTTING. And realistically, it's not THAT much slower anyway.

Look into energy flux / g-flux ... it might help you understand where I'm coming from.

ArchAngel777
12-12-2006, 01:14 PM
Look into energy flux / g-flux ... it might help you understand where I'm coming from.

I'll check it out, thanks!

Ruffian
12-12-2006, 01:52 PM
Anthony- Thanks man, I really did not feel like typing out a huge post... I had one started but I trashed it after the car accident, I really just didnt feel like arguing about it. You did it way better then I would anyway!

Nikki- You will find with HIIT that you will feel it 10X more then you do on your 2 mile jog. So I wouldnt go into it with the purpose of doing 2 miles. However, you can choose the time or distance.

For example, and this is probably a good starting point.
Start with a 5-10 min walk.
Run (not job but RUN) 400-800 m
Walk the same distance.. Repeat this until you either decide to stop or cant continue running.

I imagine youll make it through 2 or 3 cycles before your sweating more then you were after 2 miles!

Nikkiwomang
12-12-2006, 02:00 PM
Anthony- Thanks man, I really did not feel like typing out a huge post... I had one started but I trashed it after the car accident, I really just didnt feel like arguing about it. You did it way better then I would anyway!

Nikki- You will find with HIIT that you will feel it 10X more then you do on your 2 mile jog. So I wouldnt go into it with the purpose of doing 2 miles. However, you can choose the time or distance.

For example, and this is probably a good starting point.
Start with a 5-10 min walk.
Run (not job but RUN) 400-800 m
Walk the same distance.. Repeat this until you either decide to stop or cant continue running.

I imagine youll make it through 2 or 3 cycles before your sweating more then you were after 2 miles!



Thanks! I am going to try this out tonight.

ericg
12-12-2006, 02:22 PM
Let us know how it goes! HIIT is some killer stuff.

Nikkiwomang
12-12-2006, 02:40 PM
I will be tracking my food religiously again on fitday.....should help me gauge how this new program works for me. Again thanks to all of you for helping me with this stuff. I sure need some guidance. Found some awesome reads on this forum. I like that the info is not "just do it", but "do it because......" info.

Bohizzle
12-12-2006, 03:07 PM
I'd aim for a lot less than 400m. I'd aim for a 100m run, 2-300m either walk or jog, repeat. u'll find that trying to run at top speed for 400m is not going to happen. To perform HIIT properly and get the full benefits, u need to be giving it ur all during the work periods, and doing this over 400m is going to be tough for most people. Especially someone who has never done HIIT before. Let us know how it goes!

Andrew

Edit: With time you'll be able to decrease the rest time so that it's equal to work time, and eventually increase the number of intervals or the length of them.

Nikkiwomang
12-12-2006, 06:52 PM
I'd aim for a lot less than 400m. I'd aim for a 100m run, 2-300m either walk or jog, repeat. u'll find that trying to run at top speed for 400m is not going to happen. To perform HIIT properly and get the full benefits, u need to be giving it ur all during the work periods, and doing this over 400m is going to be tough for most people. Especially someone who has never done HIIT before. Let us know how it goes!

Andrew

Edit: With time you'll be able to decrease the rest time so that it's equal to work time, and eventually increase the number of intervals or the length of them.

oh hell no I couldn't do 400m!!!!! So I did the 100m run, 200m walk. I did 4 cycles. and holy hell yeah it kicked my ass. I feel like a lot more of my strength was engaged. I feel just as good or maybe even better than my normal 2mile boring ass jog! Hah I like it. So how many times a week should i be doing this? Oh yeah and I increased my calories for today and it will round out at about 1500
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v506/vlliberty/fitdaydec12.jpg

I'm crossing my fingers people. I gotta eat now.....LOL

Bohizzle
12-12-2006, 07:55 PM
AWESOME! good to hear. I'd say absolute maximum 3 times a week.

Andrew

ericg
12-13-2006, 05:26 AM
Depending on what you plan on doing for the rest of your routine, 3x/wk is a good place to start. Have you given any thought to your weight training?

Anthony
12-13-2006, 06:26 AM
and holy hell yeah it kicked my ass. I feel like a lot more of my strength was engaged. I feel just as good or maybe even better than my normal 2mile boring ass jog!

You just learned one of the greatest "secrets" of being in shape! Keep it up!!

Nikkiwomang
12-13-2006, 08:20 AM
Well I plan on going to weight lift tonight. I don't know what my routine will be. When I was weight training I would work upper body one day and work lower the next and take two days off. I will have to rethink everything.

Con
12-13-2006, 09:47 AM
This is something similar to what im doing:

d1: Full body workout
d2: HIIT
d3: Rest day
d4: Full body workout
d5: HIIT
d6: Rest day
d7: Rest day

Wont offend me if you dont like it, just throwing it out there. W/e you choose, as long as it covers compound movement, then its all comes down to consistency.

ericg
12-13-2006, 10:06 AM
This is something similar to what im doing:

d1: Full body workout
d2: HIIT
d3: Rest day
d4: Full body workout
d5: HIIT
d6: Rest day
d7: Rest day

Wont offend me if you dont like it, just throwing it out there. W/e you choose, as long as it covers compound movement, then its all comes down to consistency.

This is pretty much what I do. See the link in my signature for more details and example movements.

Nikkiwomang
12-13-2006, 10:15 AM
Thanks guys. So its ok to work the full body on the lifing days?

Anthony
12-13-2006, 10:16 AM
Thanks guys. So its ok to work the full body on the lifing days?

Absolutely ... in fact, it's preferred. :)

Nikkiwomang
12-16-2006, 05:14 PM
Critique please...... The FBW is the full body work out using WBB1. the HIIT consists of the running indicated above.

Monday: HIIT
Tuesday FBW
Wednesday REST
Thursday HIIT
Friday FBW
Saturday HIIT
Sunday REST

Anthony
12-16-2006, 07:16 PM
Don't use WBB1 for your full body work, it's too much work for one day. Use 2-3 compound movements that cover your entire body (squat, dips, chinups would be an example).

I would also switch your FBW with HIIT so that you did something like:

m: fbw
t: hiit
w: rest
t: fbw
f: hiit
s: hiit
s: rest

That will give you more rest for your strength training. Keep your HIIT to 5-10 minutes for the first while. Even though it's short, it's still hard on your central nervous system and will affect your ability to recover.

Other than that, seems solid to me.

Nikkiwomang
12-16-2006, 07:25 PM
thank you! I really appreciate everyone's help with this. :)

Nikkiwomang
04-30-2007, 01:08 PM
Holy cow I remember this.....been MIA for months now, thought I'd check in to see where I was when I first started. I LOL@myself!!! I am down to 175lbs. but have learned to not pay attention to the scale too much. I gained A LOT of muscle and lost body fat. I'm still going strong. And weight training is my favorite thing to do. :)

You guys taught me a lot! I utilize HIIT in all sorts of different activities. Jump rope took me awhile to get use to I hadn't done it since grade school!

Nikki

JustLost
05-02-2007, 09:01 AM
Good job!