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View Full Version : L-Arginine and cardio ... ?


Built
12-20-2006, 09:52 PM
Got a weird one I posted up on a few other boards.

While I understand the stuff's pretty much useless when it comes to muscle gain, I'm wondering if we may have been barking up the wrong tree - could it be useful for fat loss during cardio?

Anybody know anything about L-Arginine and cardio? From what I've read, it does a few things that might work in concert with caffeine/Yohimbine (ie peripheral blood supply to subcutaneous adipose tissue, catecholamine release) for something like HIIT and/or stubborn fat loss.

It has been shown to get fat off obese Zucker rats <rolls eyes>, and also off obese type-II diabetics as I recall … and a dosing of 6g L-arginine with 6mg yohimbine is well tolerated for ED (fellas, maybe rub one out BEFORE that AM HIIT session!)

Some possibly relevant links:

L-arginine and insulin sensitivity Beneficial effects of a long-term oral L-arginine treatment added to a hypocaloric diet and exercise training program in obese, insulin-resistant type 2 diabetic patients. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=16772327)

Long-term oral L-arginine administration improves peripheral and hepatic insulin sensitivity in type 2 diabetic patients. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=11347747)
"3g 3x per day"

Arginine increases catecholamines at rest Effects of L-arginine supplementation on exercise metabolism. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17143054&query_hl=123&itool=pubmed_docsum)

Dietary L-arginine supplementation reduces fat mass in Zucker diabetic fatty rats. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15795423&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum)


Efficacy and safety of a novel combination of L-arginine glutamate and yohimbine hydrochloride: a new oral therapy for erectile dysfunction. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12074777&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum)


From Effects of L-arginine supplementation on exercise metabolism (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17143054&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum)

"L-arginine infusion at rest increases plasma insulin, growth hormone, glucagon, catecholamines and prolactin. Such hormonal changes affect metabolism. There has, however, been very little examination of the effect of increases in L-arginine availability during exercise. This is important to study as there is preliminary evidence that L-arginine infusion, probably via increases in nitric oxide (NO), alters skeletal-muscle metabolism during exercise. "

Sadly, the research is rather thin in this regard. What I'm mostly looking for is a reason NOT to try this.

Oral bioavailability appears to be in the range of 68+/-9 (51-87)% for a 6g dose of oral L-arginine:

L-arginine-induced vasodilation in healthy humans: pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic relationship. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9833603&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_DocSum)

"Plasma L-arginine levels increased to (mean +/- s.e.mean) 6223+/-407 (range, 5100-7680) and 822+/-59 (527-955) micromol l(-1) after intravenous infusion of 30 g and 6 g L-arginine, respectively, and to 310+/-152 (118-1219) micromol l(-1) after oral ingestion of 6 g L-arginine. Oral bioavailability of L-arginine was 68+/-9 (51-87)%. Clearance was 544+/-24 (440-620), 894+/-164 (470-1190), and 1018+/-230 (710-2130) ml min(-1), and elimination half-life was calculated as 41.6+/-2.3 (34-55), 59.6+/-9.1 (24-98), and 79.5+/-9.3 (50-121) min, respectively, for 30 g i.v., 6 g i.v., and 6 g p.o. of L-arginine. Blood pressure and total peripheral resistance were significantly decreased after intravenous infusion of 30 g L-arginine by 4.4+/-1.4% and 10.4+/-3.6%, respectively, but were not significantly changed after oral or intravenous administration of 6 g L-arginine. L-arginine (30 g) also significantly increased urinary nitrate and cyclic GMP excretion rates by 97+/-28 and 66+/-20%, respectively. After infusion of 6 g L-arginine, urinary nitrate excretion also significantly increased, (nitrate by 47+/-12% [P<0.05], cyclic GMP by 67+/-47% [P= ns]), although to a lesser and more variable extent than after 30 g of L-arginine. The onset and the duration of the vasodilator effect of L-arginine and its effects on endogenous NO production closely corresponded to the plasma concentration half-life of L-arginine, as indicated by an equilibration half-life of 6+/-2 (3.7-8.4) min between plasma concentration and effect in pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic analysis, and the lack of hysteresis in the plasma concentration-versus-effect plot. CONCLUSIONS: The vascular effects of L-arginine are closely correlated with its plasma concentrations. These data may provide a basis for the utilization of L-arginine in cardiovascular diseases."

Thoughts?

the doc
12-20-2006, 10:05 PM
i have thought quite a bit on this topic. The problem is that almost all the data that show significant results (in terms of decreased diastolic BP) utilize IV infusions of L-arg. I think that most oral l-arg is therefore deactivated by first pass metabolism in the liver (giving ornithine and urea).

Built
12-20-2006, 10:12 PM
Thank you for your reply!

How about the link I included that provides a comparison of oral and infusion-induced levels?

the doc
12-20-2006, 10:44 PM
sure, consider the last quoted article (which i have seen before)
1) compare the plasma levels of the IV 6g arginine infusion w/ the 6 g oral dose. With an oral bioavailability of ~70% our effective oral dose is reduced to 4.2g. so to really accurately compare effects we would have to bump up our oral dose to about 7.8 g
2) when correcting for the bioavailabilty factors in serum plasma levels (70% of the 6g IV dose plasma concentration = ~580), oral administration achieves only 50% of the plasma levels of IV
3) notice the much higher clearance rate for the 6g po dose vs 6 g IV. This suggests a significant 1st pass effect that would be consistant with liver urea cycle processing of arginine
4) NO synthesis is dependant on serum arginine concentrations and is indirectly measured by measuring mean arterial pressure. If 6 g IV did not cause a significant change in BP then 6 g po is definitely not (which is what the study found)
:)

Built
12-20-2006, 10:48 PM
But SOME of it is getting through, right?

Now, assuming we get the stuff we need from an oral dose, is there any reason why it WOULDN'T work for say HIIT as an addition to yohimbine and caffeine (and possibly L-tyrosine) as per the "stubborn fat protocol"? Or even for steady-state cardio?

Wild Cat McCane
12-20-2006, 10:59 PM
yes, there is a problem. 6 grams oral would probably make you poop out your stomach too.

too much l-arginine can make you have the runs

Built
12-20-2006, 11:03 PM
Okay, we have a winner!

This is a real problem, yes. How much can one take before this ... effect occurs, wildcat?

the doc
12-20-2006, 11:03 PM
i see what you are getting at... with the articles you posted i cannot find any reason why it wouldn't have some effect in untrained type 2 diabetics. otherwise i could not leap to further conclusions as there is just not enough data. however, I would not reject your hypothesis either

Wild Cat McCane
12-21-2006, 02:11 AM
ah...couldn't tell if you are being friendly or not...but

from what I have read on this forum lots of users shot for 3 grams.

Three grams would destroy my stomach. I feel that there is a difference in me at 500mg. 1.5 is the absolute max before I just start the iv of pepto.

Built
12-21-2006, 02:25 AM
Interesting.

Guess I'll just have to do some experimenting!

Thanks Wild.

:)

Davidelmo
12-21-2006, 11:48 AM
Nothing to stop you giving it a go. For me anything 4g+ gives me stomach cramps and the poops.

2g used to affect me pretty badly, but I seem be more tolerant now.

I'd advise you not to jump right in at 6g just in case!

Despite what anyone says, you DO get a pump from it. Whether or not you get increased recovery etc is another matter altogether which I dont know the answer to.

shootermcgavin7
12-21-2006, 12:49 PM
This is a real problem, yes. How much can one take before this ... effect occurs, wildcat?


I haven't used it in a while; but I have mucked around with it in the past for the blood pressure effects and I took up to 10g/day with no digestive problems.

Obviously it varies with everyone.

Built
12-21-2006, 02:22 PM
I start cutting in a month, and I'm gonna try it.

Eeeeeee!

Wild Cat McCane
12-21-2006, 04:07 PM
Yeah, I didn't mean to dumb it down to say everyone gets the cramps from it. However it is a side effect.

I personally stopped taking it.
I found that the day after I felt my body would be significanlty smaller. Almost a shrinking effect or dehydrating effect. I don't mean just after loosing the huge pump (yeah, I got it, don't tell me it doesn't exist), but more so then usual.
Sexually, it would increase fullness of the penis half an hour after taking only 500mg. However, the next day when not using it, i swear it was the worst feeling. Smaller then usual when trying to get a full erection.

Built
12-24-2006, 01:32 AM
I'll keep it away from hubby then lol!