Gear Debate

[chris mason]

I don't mean to be hurtful IBLiftin, but big gear may = a big body, but is also = a small person. You will get big, but at what price? You will also probably never learn how to train properly because gear compensates for poor training. You will also not be consistent, because you will fall into the rut that many people do and only train (or at least only train hard) when you are on gear. You probably will not train for the rest of your life, or if you do, you will have messed up your body to such an extent that natural training will be very difficult and frustrating at best. If you continue to use gear over the years, you will probably develope cardiovascular problems (no matter how lean you stay--look at Don Ross) and then either die young, or have your active lifestyle greatly curtailed. You guys who think it is cool to use gear had better think twice and realize it is only a short term solution. You may want to think about the long term, like the next 50 or so years of your life. When you get old, do you want bad joints, no sex life, a compromised immune system etc.? If not, I suggest you rethink matters.

[Ronan]

good post chris

[GetnBigr]

you have a closed mind and you are probably just one of those small ***** punks who gets in my way at the gym.....you choose to believe what the media portrays instead of doing some research on your own and finding out the truth to using steroids.....

closed minded people like you are the ones who give steroids a bad rap.....true they can hurt you if abused.....but if used in moderation and with good knowledge on the subject, they can benefit you greatly......

[Frankster]

OH OH, :( this means trouble

[pr3]

Very well said Chris. I couldn't have said better!

Bodybuilding is a lifestyle. If you are using "gear" then all you are doing is living a cheating lifestyle. Be honest with yourself. Working out shouldn't be damaging to one's body, it should instead be a overwhelming positive experience. "Gear" simply F***s it up. Excuse my language.

Only those who are desperate to have a huge ass body in 10 minutes FOR 10 minutes want to cheat their way through. Alright go ahead, those 10 minutes are just about over...

And fAngel, to your response, considering you're Gangsta No.1, I would assume that no one should mess with you regardless...

[Frankster]

I partially agree with Chris but i strongly disagree with pr3

[Cackerot69]

don't start with this "gear is cheating" BS, cheating what? people use gear for the same reason you natural guys use creatine, glutamine, ECA and all these other supplements...so, they are "cheating" becuase what they use works, and your stuff doesn't? you are both trying to do the same thing - gain a boost, reach you goals faster.

of course, none of this applys if you are competing in a "natural" competition, and no, just becuase everyone else is doing it it isn't ok, right Ronan?

[Anthony]

Anabolic steroid USE is not the same as Anabolic steroid ABUSE. Simple as that.

Also - I'm not sure why people think steroids makes everything easier ... you may gain quicker, but you still have to work hard.

And GB ... you hit the nail on the head with that one.

[Sinep]

yeah I disagree with pr3 too..
the fact that somebody use gear doesn't mean his lifestyle changes.. at least for most of us.
Alot of people, in different sports, will use steroid to compete at a more competitive level where pretty much everybody uses drugs.

[Sinep]

Cackerot is also correct

[Daniel Clough]

OK I will throw in my 2 cents for what its worth.....

I agree with both sides.....

On one hand I agree with Chris..... I think some people take it too far and take too much for too long... OK I know IBLiftin has been on and off for a long time as far as I am aware (might be wrong) and no I would not ever take the amount of stuff he has taken for some of the reasons Chris mentions...

However that is MY choice....... Its also HIS to do what HE does.......

People have to respect that.....

I am not going to get to invloved in this arguement as I do not know the area enough to back up my points however I have not ruled out moderate use in the future but will look very carefully at the side effects b4 taking anything......

Please everyone respect other peoples opinions in this thread.. NO personal insults please.... Lets keep this a heated, flame free debate ok ? :)

[chris mason]

Getinbigr, you are quite wrong. I can tell you that I have lifted more in my day than you probably ever will, even if you take unlimited gear. I can also speak from experience on this topic, as I dabbled in gear myself in my early 20s. What I was trying to say, in a nice fashion I might add, is that there is a lot more to it than you shi*s realize at this point in your lives. I took a couple of cycles and wish that I had never touched the stuff. I am trying to let you benefit from my experience. I also don't believe that a punk like you will use steroids "sensibly", if there is such a thing. I know more about the subject than anyone in the media ever will, so please don't pull that bulls*it on me. I know, or have known professional bodybuilders and wrestlers who have taken gear aplenty. I also have some very good friends who have taken more than your little mind can comprehend. These are people I like very much. That still doesn't change the fact that it is STUPID!!!!!! So, like Hulk said, you are an adult (I hope), and you are free to choose your own path. I was merely trying to help you make the right choice.


Oh, and Anthony, steroid use at any level will have adverse side effects in the long term. Even if the side effects, such as increased blood pressure, increased relative levels of LDLs, and general endorcrine system disruption are temporary and will revert back to normal after cessation, during the time that you are using, the effects previously listed will take a toll on the body which will be realized later in life.

[Chris Rodgers]

Excellent post Chris!

[IBLiftin]

Don't ya just love it when an ignorant azz makes a post like this. What do you know about me?

You see maybe 5-6 famous people with problems from gear use, like lyle alzado. Out of how many millions of people use them now?

Who the hell do you think you are telling me I'll never know how to train properly? WTF do you know about training? I was benching over 400lbs b4 i even touched gear.

As for my health, if you must know you nosey MFer. I just had a full blood test done, 4 weeks after I stopped my last cycle. My doc knows I've been using and he couldn't believe there was NOTHING abnormal. The only thing he was worried about was my high blood pressure, but seeing how it runs in my family there isn't anything i can do about that.

Do you know what the long term effects of a high protein diet are also? Some doc's say it will lead to kidney failure, do you believe them also?

The thing you forgot to mention in your post is this disclaimer:

"This post is only chris mason's opinion on gear use, it has no factual data. Just things I THINK I've learned over the years, and no, I'm not a doctor...."



I'll be totaly honest with you, I've never even done a show yet, my first one will be in september of this year. I am already planning my training regemine for the 2002 nationals, with the backing from some top npc and ex-pro's.....


And just so you know that is a real 11% BF I posted, not some 11% with calibers, + or - 2% crap. I got 18.5" arms and viens running everywhere right now, so don't let the 222lbs fool you bro.......

I don't believe for a minute that you can't make good gains after gear. Why the heck would you not be able to? Your test levels should be normal and as long as your diet is cool you can still gain muscle after gear, so I don't knwo where you pulled that crap outta....

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

i agree with chris that steroids aren't worth it for the fact that they can screw you up later in life - the chances are you won't even be interested in lifting in the next 10 years so the chances are you'll regret it.

But, i have no problem with people doing steroids - it is their choice. I don't think they are 'cheats' either.

The look i am aiming for is achievable without the use of synthetic substances anyway, so i have no desire to 'dabble'...

[chris mason]

First off IB, 222 at 11% won't get you very far at a national level show at 5'10". Second off, yes it is my opinion, but also the opinion of many others. Third off, I can name a lot of others who died: Don Ross, Jon Paul Sigmarrson (spelling?), Chuck Sipes, Mohammed Benaziza (spelling?), O.D. Wilson and there are others. That is just people who died! Now, can we talk about others who as they age will see some negative results? Why bother? I wasn't speaking about you specifically (although I did reference you), since I don't personally know you, but rather, about the typical user. Now, I think you are full of shi* about benching 400 lbs before ever touching the stuff, because if you did, you would have no reason to do them. There are very few people who can bench 400 + lbs, including pro bbers.

By the way, all of those listed above who died, died young of massive heart attacks. Oh yeah, thought of another one, Andreas Munzer. Or how about a lot of very well known bodybuilders who no longer compete due to all of the health complications they suffered? Guys like Matt Mendenhall, Gary Strydom, Dennis Newman, Don Long etc. Are you getting the picture?

Look, it is your own choice, obviously, but you decided to proclaim your stats (which are impressive) and your use of steroids in the Training section. Why not keeps the steroid stuff in this section where it belongs?

One more thing, EVERYTHING I listed on my post can be found in the contraindiction section of the insert that comes with your steroids, if you ever bothered to read one. Not just an opinion, slim!

[Anthony]

"Oh, and Anthony, steroid use at any level will have adverse side effects in the long term."
- Prove it.


And I'm pretty sure IB was posting on mm.com before he went over to the dark side - where it was well know he had a 400+ bench.

[Spiderman]

BITE ME!
Dude you don't know a lot of stuff about gear at all. Why don't you try to educate yourself on the real facts about gear instead of believing all the propaganda $hit the media says... How can you claim to know a lot about bodybuilding if you're not learning the true facts about the stuff that is the main ingredient in the sport?!?!? I think you need to take GetnBigr's and IB's advice...they know A LOT more than you do on this subject. Face it man...you DON"Tknow everything!! :mad:

[El Guapo]

Oh how i agree IB....WTF are they even doing in the Anabolic zone if they are against it??? Never understood that crap...you go look for trouble your gonna get trouble....so to all you natties who cry about us guys using AS to aid in our bodybuilding...quitcha*****en!! and grow up

[chris mason]

Anthony, I think the people listed above who are dead attest to their dangers. You can also read the Physician's Desk Reference if you would like proof of the possible side effects with people using the recommended therapeutic doses of the drugs.

[chris mason]

Actually, I wasn't here by choice. Hulk took these responses out of the training section Guapo. So, I am here under duress so to speak. Don't worry, I am done, but if any of you would like to discuss real physiological responses to anabolics then please feel free to ask. Otherwise, I hope you all remain healthy. I mean that.

[IBLiftin]

Take a minute and read my psot again chris. I said I was training for the 2002 nationals smartazz. Do you think I'll be 222lbs then? Jesus get off your high fukin horse like your so much better then gear users.

I am a firm believer in the fact that gear is not th only thing that caused those peoples health problems. It was the wieght gaining/food/dieting etc.... Our bodies aren;t made to carry 250lbs of muscle naturally...

[Anthony]

"I think the people listed above who are dead attest to their dangers."
- Which is why I said there was a difference between USE and ABUSE.

"You can also read the Physician's Desk Reference if you would like proof of the possible side effects with people using the recommended therapeutic doses of the drugs."
- Possible being the key word. They cover there ass against possible law suits. Ever buy a candy bar that doesn't contain peanuts ... yet it still warns that it could possibly contain peanuts? That's to cover their ass. Besides - everyone knows research is only done for the money. :)

[chris mason]

If you didn't firmly believe that IB I would be very surprised. If you thought you could get harmed, and yet still took them, that would make you an idiot or masochistic. I assume you are neither. Anthony thinks he is very intelligent with his post. The fact remains that I provided him with a very reputable reference guide to back my claims, but he has yet to provide anything to back his. He is trying to belittle my argument without having any proof of his own. Not very smart. IB, I hope that nothing ever happens to you in the way of negative side effects. Like I told Getinbigr, I am telling you guys nothing that I haven't told some of my best friends who take as mouch or more gear than you. The main problem I had with your post was the fact that you mentioned your impressive stats along with the fact that you use steroids on the Training forum. I think that is wrong. I think you should keep talk about steroids in this forum. You have free choice and I don't judge you for using steroids, just don't promote them to others in sections that are not concerning steroids.

[IBLiftin]

How many natty's you seen win a pro show in the last 20 years? NONE! If you don't like bodybuilding then get the hell out cause gear is here to stay bro..... It's all part of the game....

[Tadger]

Chris, I realize that you were just stating your opinion and all, but just take a look at your initial post. It was rather inflamatory and somewhat of an attack on another member of the board. It's also, as far as I can tell, unprovoked. I understand that discussion of anabolics is what this section is all about. You seem concerned about the safety of your fellow lifters and bodybuilders, but it would probably be better to keep a post such as that confined to a personal message, and if you wish to discuss the ethical, moral and fundamental issues surrounding the use of anabolics, a less inflamatory post would be more appropriate. I am not trying to flame you, and I know that when you posted you probably didn't intend to start any arguments. I also recognize that many of the others got carried away in their responses, and this post is intended for them as much as for you.
The point of this board is to educate and provide others with clear concise information on how to improve themselves in the gym. Whether on the gear or natural, arguing and slinging personal insults gets none of us anywhere. It makes things much harder to sort through for the newbies looking for information, and even for those that have been here a while. Granted this section is rather small, but the board is growing and I'm sure that the anabolic section will as well. The pointless arguments and personal insults are things that we should look to avoid if we want to keep this board something we all of us want to return to.
I know that it's not really my place to reprimand anyone, and that's not my intent with this post. Normally, this is something that I myself would keep confined to a personal message to those involved, but I figure that since this is really the first argument I've come across, that I'd speak up and post publicly.
I commend those you that approached this argument with a level head and tried to present your point of view without letting your egos get in the way. Insults will not convince anyone of your point of view. If you are going to bother responding to something here, lets make sure that it's something that's worth reading; something that someone will benefit from.
I don't know how lenient the mods are here, but the boards that I still frequent are the where the mods jump in real quick when things get personal. I find that when you risk being banned for making posts attacking anyone, people tend to think before they speak, and you get a much more meaningful debate.
Lets keep it clean and make this board something that we can all be proud to be a part of.

[IBLiftin]

one more thing chris, look up on your good ol PDR caffine, or asprine or any GD thing in there! THERE ARE POSSIBLE SIDE EFFECTS TO EVERYTHING! Why don't you go into a smokers forum and tell them how stupid they are for smoking?

That's it, I'm done, no more outta me......

[Daniel Clough]

Good post from Tadger........

This post is getting a bit out of hand....

Although I have seen some good points from both sides, there have also been a few insults..

Try and keep your answers unprovocative, and flame free.. I know it is perhaps a subject that can carry many different and strong opinions but try and keep unproductive responses out of it...

One thing.. Perhaps this looked like a Thread Chris started off his own back here in this forum. It was not I moved these posts from a training post about stats as it was taking that thread waaay of topic.


Thanks

Hulk :)

[YatesNightBlade]

This is one of the best threds I've seen.

First off, I believe there is a huge difference between USE and ABUSE. I bust my ass in the gym (all year round), eat clean and live for bodybuilding ..... if there's something available to me thats gonna improve my performance ..... Im going to take it. A Super Supplement if you will.

Chris, two questions for ya.

Question One ; You seen kinda bitter towards AS ??? Why is that ??? Is there something your not telling us ?? Have you had health problems and been told to stop ??? Is that why it P!sses you off when others are taking AS and GROWING ???

Question Two ; You feel so strongly about the risks of AS, but how do you feel on the subject of the following ; Recreational Drugs, Smoking, Alchohol and fatty foods .... all killers in there own right ??? Do you consider them more dangerous then AS or less ???

More then 2 questions I know.

Thanks

Good posts by the way IB.

I do have this to say though ..... It will be interesting to see which pros are still around in 20 - 30 years. The sport is young and no one really knows all the answers, even you Chris.

[Ronan]

cack: becasue I have taken one clenbuterol tablet does that mean I should compete in drug using shows for the rest of my competitive career?

I personally dont think so

so take a look at this and lick me

[Chris Rodgers]

Originally posted by IBLiftin
How many natty's you seen win a pro show in the last 20 years? NONE! If you don't like bodybuilding then get the hell out cause gear is here to stay bro..... It's all part of the game....


Just curious, how many competitions have you won in the past 20 years IB? Are you saying that everyone who lifts should be in it to someday become a gear using(many of them abusing) pro bodybuilder? Sorry, but that's not why I lift and trust me when I say thet I will lift for longer than you in my life..... I will!

[Sinep]

Hey cack, after you're done licking Ronan.. would you mind licking my chest?
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/drkstar/pics/bulldozer.jpg
just kiddin ;)

Sorry, but that's not why I lift and trust me when I say thet I will lift for longer than you in my life..... I will!

Hmmm.. why would it be so? Side-effects are not life threatning unless they're largely abused and if he decided to join the dark side to compete it's probably because he got a big in interest in the sport.

[Sinep]

Did I just call bodybuilding a sport? :o
I didn't mean that hehe

[Chris Rodgers]

Sinep- I said that because IB was saying that gear is here to stay, so if you don't like it, get out of the game. I believe that most (not all) gear users are in and will be in this "game" for a shorter period of time then dedicated naturals. They won't be "on" forever and many are only in it for short term gratification(I.E.: winning a contest, looking good for the beach, getting "freaky" looking). I'm not saying all gearheads are like this, just every one I've come across in my life. Many gear users will see less gains after they are done juicing. If they didn't, then they would have no reason to juice in the first place! This will be too much for most to handle and they will quit or continue to juice.


The way I look at it, it is a dead end street. It is not about being healthy and exercising, it is all about ego. Those who do it, it is their choice and fine by me. They don't get any respect from me. If you are so dedicated and work so hard, then why not do it without AS, so you can be proud of what YOU accomplished, not the drugs. Say what you want, but you know deep down you would feel better if you accomplished your goals without AS.


I know most of you are just gonna say I'm some little pansy natural, but hey, at least what I've done I can say I've done naturally and will continue to. What can you say?


Let the flames begin!

[Anthony]

Chris, we've already discussed what I thought of your 'proof' ... misleading at best. Just because there are possible side effects does not mean they will happen. If the drug companies failed to list "possible outbreaks of acne" as a side effect, they might be sued for millions of dollars. It's a precaution measure for the most part. And IB is right, look up some other substances that we encounter in our daily lives and see what you find.

Ronan, one tab? Sorry to pounce on this, but we both know you have taken more than one tab. And at 17 years old, too. You're body hasn't even fully matured and you are already dabbling in drugs?

Latman, you're a little pansy and my wrist isn't affecting any of my major lifts - so look out boy. :)

[Sinep]

Latman, I share your point of view.. there's no limit of what you can achieve naturally. Sure, you can always gain more, but somebody like me will never get anywhere near 220lbs without gear no matter how much effort he put into it. I'm not saying I want to be there.. but some people does and the only way to get there is with the use of drugs and I don't think we should belittle their accomplishments because he used chimical supplements. The current bodybuilding lifestyle I'm currently living is not what I would call an 'happy lifestyle'. All what I do is diet all day long, go to work, train.. I barely have time to socialize and BREATH what life has to offer. All this for what.. a few pounds a year? Do I want to be where I want at age 30 and have an empty pass? The only gear users I don't respect are those who threw themselves into without thinking it through, the lazy ones. You only live once.

[Anthony]

I think Sinep is going to the dark side!

[Sinep]

lol, I made it sound like it heh?
Not yet, maybe never.. but I'm tempted

[Daniel Clough]

Originally posted by Sinep

Not yet, maybe never.. but I'm tempted

Heh, I lke that... Sums up my view :)

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

I think it's a shame that any 'big' money as it were from this 'sport' can really only be derived from synthetic substances.

I know only a select few can actually make a living from it, but i personally think it's a shame that that kind of money is not in natural competition.

[Sinep]

TCD, I rather have big people on gear getting money in a non-tested competition than big MOFO on gear in a natural competition. It is a shame natural competition aren't natural.

[beercan]

I don't see why everyone's on IB's ass...

We've known each other for years, and were both bigger as nattys, than a lot of people get on gear.

You guys need to stop talking so much ****....

I'd just better be careful I don't insult the bodybuilding guru chris mason...he's really tough hiding behind his computer. Chris you seem to know your stuff...why not just help, instead of starting trouble (you did start this post, didn't you?)

Give me a fu(king break. Why come at all, if you're going to be such *******s. We're all in this together, natty or otherwise....

[beercan]

Just so this doesn't seem like the post calling the kettle black...

Me, IB, and GB, became friends with all of the juicers, when we were natty....that's why we can't understand why you guys talk so much ****.

[Daniel Clough]

I just want people to know that IB is a sound guy who doesn't try to push the anabolic route to anyone just gives advice nice and informative..

Yuo only have to look at the "Clen" thrread to see who he turned it round into helping pup with his diet..

I have seen IB disuade (is that actually a word!) lots of people from using before and told then to go back to the diet book... Bear that in mind..

[gino]

Chris Mason - "Now, I think you are full of shi* about benching 400 lbs before ever touching the stuff, because if you did, you would have no reason to do them."

-Voted the "Dumbest Comment" in the thread and winner of the "I Don't Think Before I Speak" award.

Gear doesn't equal big, fast, strong...gear equals bigER, fastER, strongER. Someone who benches 400 lbs naturally may want to get stronger and bench 500 lbs. Most people aren't satisfied with what they have. People who ARE satisfied with what they have usually don't go to the gym in the first place. Hmmm, strange how that works out...

[Spiderman]

Very nicely said Gino! :cool:
I personally am not happy at this point, and I won't be till I"m at a lean 250-280 lbs. :D THEN I may be satisfied.

[Sinep]

spidey, you give me the impression of someone who's taking steroids like candy.

[Spiderman]

There is NO fu(kin way that you can begin to comprehend the $hit that I've dealt with in my life. Only a couple people here know about it and trust me you're NOT going to be one of'em! How DARE you suggest I'm takin it like candy! :mad: Besides the point that I would do that if I could...I don't. This is expensive $hit and you can't do it like that. Even a dumbas$ who doesn't know $hit about gear like yourself should understand that. But perhaps I am wrong...ah well.... Those of us who choose to use gear will one day be up on stage pointing our fingers and laughing at you sorry as$ natty fewls. (ummm...was that a personal attack on you? I'm not sure... :confused: )

[Sinep]

aah spidey spidey spidey..

How DARE you suggest I'm takin it like candy! Besides the point that I would do that if I could

issh.. do you realize what you just said?
You would do it if you could, but you don't want me to think so? I think you're confused spidey, I know about some problems you had.. and there's probably more beside what I know but why don't you go seek help?

[GetnBigr]

Gino made some good points.....but i see no further knowledge coming from this post, not that there was much to begin with in this post......i ask that who ever the mods are in this forum close this thread.....enough is enough

[The_Chicken_Daddy]

I think we can all agree on that GB

[Abombs]

I read the first page and had to add my $0.02. Who the hell are you guys coming in here and telling us how to live our lives? Chris, you are nothing but an ignorant, self-centered, fool. If you are such a man of science and knowledge post one article from the New England Journal of Medicine that states the longterm NEGATIVE effects of AS use. Do you dink alcohol? There are over 2,000,000 deaths a year attributed to alcohol use, why don't you champion your cause on that issue ****face!!! And don't think I'm some idiot over here, I got my BS in Biochemistry and Bioengineering and a Master's in Polymer Science. So don't think I don't know how to do research bro, that's what I do for a freakin' living.