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esailor
01-28-2007, 12:12 PM
I am currently cutting. How ever I have something I drink everyday usually in the morning. I make a green smoothy it is as follows. 3-4 cups of organic raw kale, a medium bananna, a ring of pine apple or 4 medium strawberrys, 10 oz of water and 6-7 ice cubes. This week I have been adding a teaspoon of creatine as well as a tablespoon of blue green alge and a teaspoon of a whole food fruit powder for antioxidents and such. The last 2 powders = about 40 callories. The fresh fruits I put in for taste to make it drinkable with out them the taste is not very palitable but with it is quite good. I liquify all of this in my Vitamix blender and it makes roughly a quart or more.

I notice the banannas are particularly hi in carbs. So long story to get to my point how bad are bananns for my cut. The rest of the food I eat through out the day ( Mostly chicken or fish with brown rice) I am able to run at a callorie deficit. I think I am eating about 30% less carbs than protien but I need to double check this.

I usually consume the smoothy pre work out. They are great for energy. detox the system and make your internal functions much better.

I have been cutting for a week now and lost 4 pounds this week.

So to recap my endless babbling my question is how bad are fresh fruits for cuts? Should they be avoided all together?

Thanks Pete

Built
01-28-2007, 01:21 PM
I don't understand the detox statement.

Fresh fruit is good for you. I don't really understand what the problem is - you're consuming it pre-workout. You DO eat something with protein in it before training, right? RIGHT?

Carbs at some percentage of protein isn't the issue. If you run a deficit, you'll lose weight.

What do your calories and macros look like, and what was your starting bodyfat % and weight?

Holto
01-28-2007, 02:27 PM
I don't understand the detox statement.

It's not something you come across when reading about fitness and sports nutrition.

Any health publication I've read (book or magazine) refers to phytonutrients as having the ability to detoxify the body.

For me personally, the key to feeling amazing all the time is eating foods that detoxify and avoiding toxins.

Built
01-28-2007, 03:26 PM
So how do these phytonutrients detox the body, Holto?

esailor
01-28-2007, 03:32 PM
Right now I am eating about 1800 to 2000 cals a day. I just restarted fit day this week. When I have a weeks worth I will figure out how to link you to my fitday I stopped during Christmas then went to Hawaii and could not get on line. I weigh 208 am 6'1'' and believe my bf to be at or around 23%. A year ago I weighed 225 and had a lot more fat around my stomach and chest. Never did any body fat measuring at that time. The only bf measurements I have done are the electro resistance things. I know they are not reliable but I tend to get consitant readings. I have a physical this thursday and will have more definite information I hope. It seems my maintenance caloric intake is around 2500 per day. OR maybe I am totally lost:bash: and am going to explode. Actually I feel great and am pleased with the results thus far. but I did hit a plateau but changed thins up and seem to be progressing again.

I usually eat some protien as well before working out. If in the morning usually a few eggs or protien powder and milk. Plus the smoothy.

Built
I am never sure what you are referring to when you ask about macros.:whazzup: I am trying to read up on all of this. Every time I think I am figuring it out I usually get more confused and I think of more questions.:bang: I really enjoy your articles and posts and am trying to read and learn from you. Thank you for your time and contributions you really help.

Built
01-28-2007, 03:40 PM
Macronutrients are protein, fat, carbohydrate grams.

Your calories look awfully low for your size.

esailor
01-28-2007, 03:49 PM
Built, A friend gave me a book Green For Life. I think the author is WAY overboard on some of it because she eats only raw foods, but I was really interested in the study results. I can't answer your questions on the detox thing nuless I go back and reread it. How ever since consuming these I feel even better. My color and complextion have improved. Regularity is MUCH better. My suppliment uptake seems to have improved as my urine is not nearly as yellow. Energy level is through the roof. I had some minor reflux issues are gone.

I have seen (but not read yet) several books since reading it on the benefits of detoxing with raw foods.

Pete

esailor
01-28-2007, 03:51 PM
If my calories are low where would you estimate they be???

Thanks
Pete

Built
01-28-2007, 03:56 PM
You feel better because you're being properly nourished, would be my bet.

Detox - I think the body does that through excretory organs, right?

I have no idea what YOUR calories should be. But you're cutting on roughly what I cut on, and I'm a middle-aged chick who weighs a buck forty soaking wet.

esailor
01-28-2007, 04:02 PM
I was afraid I was low because I have been hungry all week. See I am lost.


Detox - I think the body does that through excretory organs, right?
Yes I beleive you are correct. Boy does it clean the system.

How do I figure Caloric needs then?

Thanks

Built
01-28-2007, 04:09 PM
Diet info in the link in my sig. Start there.

A pound a week is a perfectly reasonable rate of weight loss. If you're losing faster than this, you are probably running too much of a deficit.

About 500 cals a day deficit translates to a pound a week lost, at least initially. If you've been losing two pounds a week, maybe increase your cals by 500 and see what happens.

Read the link anyway, okay?

esailor
01-28-2007, 04:16 PM
Built, Thank you for you time and courtesy. I believe you are appreciated more than you know. I will read it tonight because I need to go eat now I'm starving. lol

Thanks, Pete

Built
01-28-2007, 04:20 PM
Good luck - and you're welcome. :)

Holto
01-28-2007, 06:51 PM
So how do these phytonutrients detox the body, Holto?

Chlorophyll for example can bind to toxins making them more easily processed by the liver during Phase 1 detoxification.

Some substances converted during Phase 1 detox in the liver actually become unrecognizable to Phase 2 detoxification and also more toxic. Some phyto's can convert these toxins thus allowing them to be eliminated by the liver.

It is believed in natural medicine that the body will store toxins when they are present in such volume that they can't be eliminated. Some phyto's release toxins. Anyone who has done a 'cleanse' can attest to feeling rough at some point during the first week.

All in all they still work with the live and skin for removal.

I think it's awfully optimistic to think our excretory organs will simply eliminate everything that enters the body. Sure if you only eat farm fresh food and drink clean water and breathe clean air you may not need any help.

Unfortunately there are about 100,000 substances known as xenobiotics that our bodies are not designed to deal with. There are substances like PCB's and Dioxins that will never leave the body.

Why is it that our excretory organs can't eliminate them?



You feel better because you're being properly nourished, would be my bet.

I'm the perfect antithesis for this theory.

I was a serious bodybuilder for several years before I started studying health. I ate well, got my 38 essential nutrients, weighed/measured my food counted calories and achieved any goal I set for myself, bulking or cutting.

Then I started eating to improve my health, used some herbal detox kits, and have never looked back.

Nutritional therapy is on the rise.

On edit:

One important thing to note regarding the bodies level of toxicity. Toxins in the blood have an intoxicating effect. So it's like being partly drunk or partly stoned minus the euphoria. After having cleaned up my body I can recognize this intoxicated feeling. When my mental acuity goes down, I know it's time to cleanse. When I do a cleanse it comes back. Magic? Who cares it feels damn good.

I may not have clinical data to support any of this but I have thousands of years of anecdotal evidence and all the people I have worked with to convince me.

Built
01-28-2007, 06:53 PM
I don't buy it Holto. Sorry.

I need some peer-reviewed evidence of what you're saying.

Meanwhile, it's all gobbledegook to me.

Holto
01-28-2007, 06:56 PM
I don't buy it Holto. Sorry.

I need some peer-reviewed evidence of what you're saying.

Meanwhile, it's all gobbledegook to me.

Have you heard of Phase 1 and Phase 2 detoxification?

That part is pure science.

Built
01-28-2007, 06:57 PM
Nope.

We'll start there.

Holto
01-28-2007, 07:04 PM
In Brenda Watkins book she discusses how some of the most toxic substances in the body are created by the liver during Phase 1 detox. Oddly the liver doesn't eliminate a toxin on the first pass. It converts the toxin into an intermediate substance first. Then it is during Phase 2 that it is actually eliminated. Some man made compounds get converted during Phase 1 into substances not recognized by the liver.

Some common examples of these man made compounds are pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, and synthetic fertilizers/bloom enhancers. Not to mention the synthetic flavours, colors, preservatives etc.

I know the alternative health movement can be extreme at times. Fear mongering does sell products no doubt.

Personally just looking at how we have polluted our environment is enough for me to question how my body is dealing with all the synthetic garbage we come into contact with every day.

Built
01-28-2007, 07:13 PM
I don't know who Brenda Watkins is, and I need something, anything peer-reviewed to demonstrate what you're talking about.

You know me - give me compelling evidence, and I'll listen.

So far I've read nothing compelling.

Holto
01-28-2007, 07:21 PM
So you haven't read about even the most basic human functions of detoxification yet you are confident that the system is infallible?

Thats interesting.

I guess that brings me to my first comment in the thread.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is some info on PCB's. Anyone that takes fish oil is exposed to them.

http://www.wsn.org/cwac/pcbfacts.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll try to find some clinical data for you in the meantime.

Slim Schaedle
01-28-2007, 07:23 PM
I usually consume the smoothy pre work out. They are great for energy.

For your liver, yes.


For muscles, no.

Holto
01-28-2007, 07:23 PM
Consequences of prenatal toxin exposure for mental health in children and adolescents : A systematic review.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17200791&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

Here is a snippet:

Lead and PCB's have a general effect on brain development

Why would our excretory system not eliminate the PCB's and lead?

Slim Schaedle
01-28-2007, 07:26 PM
Get a room you two :p

Holto
01-28-2007, 07:26 PM
Here is a study that refers to chronic toxicicty:

The consumption of food contaminated with "dioxins" need not directly lead to a toxic effect. Due to the continous cumulation of "dioxins" repeated ingestion of contaminated food could result in an increase of the "body burden" and thus chronic toxicity. This shows that the exposure of the human to dioxins should be minimized wherever possible

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16955640&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

This is getting interesting. I didn't know allopathic medicine even acknowledged chronic toxicity.

Holto
01-28-2007, 07:34 PM
The clinical and functional features of chronic obstructive lung disease in patients with organic chlorine pesticides in blood

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17128793&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum

Impact of pollutant human aggression is of great importance for the development of bronchopulmonary diseases. In the Republic of Uzbekistan, the environmental levels of pesticides are elevated as they are widely used in agriculture while growing cotton. Eighty-two patients with chronic obstructive lung disease (COLD) were studied in relation to the presence of blood chlorine- and phosphorus-containing pesticides. The latter were tested for their effect on the course of COLD. There was evidence that the higher blood levels of pesticides were, the more severe the clinical symptoms of the process and the more pronounced changes in the functional status of the bronchopulmonary apparatus were. The findings suggest that the blood content of organic chlorine pesticides affects the course of COLD. These compounds cause more significant clinical and functional impairments with the severe manifestations of mucous membrane morphofunctional rearrangement and with disruption of the body's adaptive potentials. These patients poorly respond to therapy, which required dose adjustment and longer drug use

------------------------

Again, without even delving into the specifics, if our bodies don't accumulate this junk why do these people have high blood levels. Our excretory system is supposed to get rid of it. Right?

esailor
01-28-2007, 07:34 PM
Built, I do not know how to get you the info you are looking for. However I felt good this past year with my new life style. I then did a three month clense then at Christmas I started with these green smoothies. I do not know what it is but they make me feel phenomenal. I have seen and felt many changes and if I don't have my smoothy for a few days I feel it. Psycological perhaps. I know this is purely anticdotal so the book I read on it was Green For Life. The authors website is www.rawfamily.com that may help your research. Also try googling raw food detox that might uncover some information for us.

Pete

Holto
01-28-2007, 08:12 PM
Built, I do not know how to get you the info you are looking for.

Unfortunately most health publications don't delve deep enough into scientific details. There are many reasons for this. Many people don't have the knowledge necessary to read over a full study. Alternative health runs on thousands of years of anecdotal evidence. Also, as you noted, you feel phenomenal. Not just good, but to the point of euphoria. Sometimes when I'm relaxing on my couch I feel so good I would swear I'm on something. That is enough for me to keep doing what I'm doing.

Another reason is a great deal of information is suppressed. Johanna Budwig was stripped of her medical license for propagating information about the dangers of trans fat. She should know, she is the person who invented them.

So I'm not suggesting there is a ton of clinical data on herbal detox kits that is buried but I wouldn't doubt it.

More so the flip side. Companies like Monsanto have created a huge percentage of the garbage out there. PCB's, dioxins, genetically modified food are all their handiwork. I have no doubt that they have, and will continue to bury data that suggests their inventions have negative effects in humans.

RedSpikeyThing
01-28-2007, 08:26 PM
Get a room you two :p

No, I like watching ;)

esailor
01-28-2007, 08:31 PM
Not just good, but to the point of euphoria
Euphoria is the same word I have used several time when discussing this with friends.

You gotta try the green smoothies you'll freak. Unfortunatly regular blenders don't get it. The vita mix I bought is the ticket. They are like 3-5 times stronger than a typical blender. They will grind anything short of nuts and bolts. We were killing blenders every 4 months. My vita mix was 500 bucks but money well spent. A friend of my has on used regularly for over 10 years. The potion I have developed is amazing. If you haven't tried it I can't explain it. I'm sure many will dismiss it but that is OK by me.:hello:

The other thing I have noticed is my focus at work through out the day is far superior.:omg:

If we are listing goals mine is to live vitally until I'm 100 years old.

Built
01-29-2007, 12:10 AM
I don't buy it Holto. Sorry.

I need some peer-reviewed evidence of what you're saying.

Meanwhile, it's all gobbledegook to me.



I don't know who Brenda Watkins is, and I need something, anything peer-reviewed to demonstrate what you're talking about.

You know me - give me compelling evidence, and I'll listen.

So far I've read nothing compelling.



So you haven't read about even the most basic human functions of detoxification yet you are confident that the system is infallible?

Thats interesting.

What's interesting is that your emotional response completely overwrote my replies to you.

I said nowhere that I'm confident that the system is infallible.

You inferred from YOUR REACTION - and not the words that I wrote - that I somehow implied you were full of crap.

All I asked for was support for your assertions.

I agree completely that PCBs and dioxins are bad bad bad.

Icky poo poo bad. Don't want 'em. Yuck.

This doesn't convince me that you can somehow use fruit concoctions to "detox" your liver.

Sorry. Call me crazy, but I need SOME sort of a link to get from point A to point B.

Consider it a shortcoming of mine.

CrazyK
01-29-2007, 12:22 AM
Could you guys post some info on how to implement such a diet? What foods/etc... Also how would you try this diet if one had bodybuilding goals/purposes to adhere to? Thanks.

Holto
01-30-2007, 12:36 PM
This doesn't convince me that you can somehow use fruit concoctions to "detox" your liver.

At no point in this thread did I say this.

My emotional response is based on you laughing in my face in previous threads. One for example when I referred to the 200-300 toxins in refined sugar, another where I referred to chlorine as toxic.

Holto
01-30-2007, 12:50 PM
Could you guys post some info on how to implement such a diet? What foods/etc... Also how would you try this diet if one had bodybuilding goals/purposes to adhere to? Thanks.

Take your current diet and try to hit your totals with the healthiest food possible. You don't have to change your macro breakdown or total calories.

Eat food in its most natural state. Brown breads are less processed than white bread, raw oats are hardly processed at all. I eat a bowl of oats in whey daily.

Produce that contains synthetic compounds (pesticides, herbicides, fungicides) are less natural than organic produce. Veggies and fruits are best for us raw but if you are eating them with each meal cooking roughly half of them is a good idea.

The bodies primary system of detoxification is the liver and colon. When toxins start to come out of the skin it's because the body is overwhelmed with toxins.

Ensuring good liver and colon function is a cornerstone of being truly healthy. You may need some extra fiber. If you have ever taken anti-biotics you may need some probiotics. There are a litany of probiotics on the shelves these days. I use one of the cheaper ones and it works well.

Pick up some free magazines next time you are in a health food store. They are extreme, no doubt, but they can be informative. If implementing their philosophies makes me feel better than I ever have that is enough for me.

One of the most important philosiphies is viewing health as a continuum.

One one end you have low energy, and disease. At the other end you have an abundance of energy and are in a good mood all the time.

Many people consider perfect health an absence of disease. This is a very digital off/on way to view it. In reality it's analog. It's a continuous range of states. To me someone who eats processed and preserved food but has no disease or health problems is in the middle of the continuum.

Bicster
01-30-2007, 01:03 PM
There are a litany of probiotics on the shelves these days. I use one of the cheaper ones and it works well..

Holto,

Which do you use and where do you order it from?

Holto
01-30-2007, 01:04 PM
You gotta try the green smoothies you'll freak.

My favorite is prairie naturals blueberry flavored. I used to mix it in organic blueberry juice, it was heaven.

Even for someone who eats veggies daily the green drinks are great. Unless of course you eat algae and some of the exotic stuff you find in those formulas.

U of T did some research on Greens Plus.

I had the pleasure of doing a conference call with Dr.Cristafi a Naturopathic Dr that was on staff. Sam Graci was on the call as well. This was before the research was published.

The participants noted increased energy and a sense of well being. As I mentioned earlier when your body becomes less toxic you feel an increased mental acuity and calmness that is really cool.

http://www.genuinehealth.com/english/pbn/index.php?id=8&section=162

scroll down

This is the same company that doesn't use plastic in their manufacturing plants and brings in organic produce for their staff each day.

Holto
01-30-2007, 01:06 PM
Holto,

Which do you use and where do you order it from?

The cheapest product that natural factors makes. It's available in most health food stores in Canada.

One rule though, don't ever buy it off the shelf. It must be refrigerated.

Look for one that has a few different species. A lot of companies are using enteric coating and 89803298402 billion live cells and all that. I realize it does make it more effective but the cheap ones seem to do the job.

esailor
01-30-2007, 05:03 PM
Vegitables in the raw are supposed to be best. How ever the cell walls are difficult to break down by just chewing to make the nutrients bioavailable. This is why I liquify it all in a drink. The speed of my mixer leaves no pulp really. They are smooth and tase great, the first few I made did not.:D So in a drink I consume through out the morning I get 3 to 4 of my daily servings of fruits and vegis in a highly available form.

I was told of this way of consumption by a friend and tried it. I really did not think it would do much, but I tried it anyway. I was feeling good from the past 10 months of my healthier lifestyle. Working out when I had never done so in my life. However when I started drinking the green smoothies my energy, focus and over all feeling of well being went through the roof.

My digestion and elimination have become MUCH more efficient. I've broken the plataue I was at for several months. My skin has never looked better. My hair looks better and I am having no dry skin problems like I have had every winter of my adult life. In general I just feel way better, and I was already feeling really good. The only thing I have changed in the last month is drinking these smoothies.

I know Built will want peer reviewed clinical evidence which I can not provide. I wish I could and I will continue to search for her. I can only relate my experiences. Certainly fruits and veggies are good for you. I am certainly not overboard like some kind of vegan, but if it makes me feel better even if it is simply psycological that is enough for me. Positive energy in the mind can't hurt you and neither can healthy foods. It is really working for me.

Have a good one, I am,:burger:

Pete