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sean140
01-29-2007, 09:27 AM
i have been doing the 5x5 routine for a while and gained alot on my bench i was wondering if anyone knows any different ways that i can get my bench max to go up?

Natetaco
01-29-2007, 03:05 PM
are you still gaining on your routine? If so then whats the prob?

Guido
01-29-2007, 03:20 PM
^Word. If you start to stall in your progress, the easiest thing is just to change the set/rep scheme. Perhaps try 8 sets of 3 next till you start to stall again.

vrizzle
01-29-2007, 03:33 PM
try this workout: do 4 sets of 5 going up every set then do a workout of DB bench, bent bar bench, close grip, weighted dips, and push downs. then next week do 5x3, the week after, 5x2, then finally max out w/ 2 2 1 1 1 or 2 2 2 1 1 with of course the last set a new max. do all the other exercises every workout i mentioned too. you should at least be doing this work out of 5's then 3's then 2's then max out 2-3 times a week. (means do 5's for a week, then 3's the next week, then 2's the next, then max out)

Chris686
01-29-2007, 03:47 PM
try this workout: do 4 sets of 5 going up every set then do a workout of DB bench, bent bar bench, close grip, weighted dips, and push downs. then next week do 5x3, the week after, 5x2, then finally max out w/ 2 2 1 1 1 or 2 2 2 1 1 with of course the last set a new max. do all the other exercises every workout i mentioned too. you should at least be doing this work out of 5's then 3's then 2's then max out 2-3 times a week. (means do 5's for a week, then 3's the next week, then 2's the next, then max out)

That sounds terrible if I read it correctly, which it's highly likely I didn't. The enter key works very well :)

Did you say max out 2-3 times a week?

If you're actually progressing on the 5x5 scheme, I don't see a reason to change it. Just keep doing what you're doing. As you add on more weight, you're also increasing your 1RM.

rmccray
01-29-2007, 05:55 PM
i agree if its not broken dont try to fix it five working sets of five sounds good but when do you work up to a one rep max?

manofsteel99
01-29-2007, 06:28 PM
i do three sets of 5 but i take the heavyest weight i can use for my first set and get 5 reps with, then use that same weight for my other two sets by then my muscles are exhausted and i have seen good progress.

if i can do more than five i go up five pounds.

smokinHawk
01-29-2007, 07:07 PM
you still will need to work some doubles and singles in if you want your 1rm up.
if your workouts dont seem to difficult anymore try doing a set of 2 then a couple of singles in

rmccray
01-29-2007, 07:35 PM
you still will need to work some doubles and singles in if you want your 1rm up.
if your workouts dont seem to difficult anymore try doing a set of 2 then a couple of singles in

sounds good to me

vrizzle
01-29-2007, 08:30 PM
That sounds terrible if I read it correctly, which it's highly likely I didn't. The enter key works very well :)

Did you say max out 2-3 times a week?

If you're actually progressing on the 5x5 scheme, I don't see a reason to change it. Just keep doing what you're doing. As you add on more weight, you're also increasing your 1RM.

no. not max out 3 times a week. do the workout 2-3 times a week. building up to a max. btw- Ive maxed out twice in bench the same week and have gone up but that was when it was a "max out" week.

nhlfan
01-29-2007, 09:11 PM
I think speed work is a good tool for increasing your bench max. Take 65% of your max and lower it slowly down to your chest, and then explode it as fast as you can off of your chest. Do about 4 sets of 4 reps of that once every two weeks or so.

Chris686
01-29-2007, 11:53 PM
no. not max out 3 times a week. do the workout 2-3 times a week. building up to a max. btw- Ive maxed out twice in bench the same week and have gone up but that was when it was a "max out" week.

So... bench like that three times a week?

Still sounds bad.

When would you squat or dead?

...Overtraining.

smokinHawk
01-30-2007, 06:08 AM
So... bench like that three times a week?

Still sounds bad.

When would you squat or dead?

...Overtraining.

yes definatly doesnt sound good.
if your putting in the effort your muscles wont heal in time.
1 heavy day/max effort day for bench a week is plenty, it takes me like 3-4 days for my muscles to heal and not be sore.
if you want to do a split do what the others have sugusted with a light/speed day, with no real weight to make you sore again.

vrizzle
01-31-2007, 06:13 PM
well my muscles are never sore. I'm a part of a weightlifting team that has won 22 out of the last 30 state championships. We are the most dominant high school team in the state of Florida. we've had dozens upon dozens of individual state champions. I think i know what I'm talking about. We work our asses off and produce results. we've even have an Olympian alumni. we workout 5 days a week, during student vacations when other teams don't, during the summer, and even on some holidays. maybe its too much for you guys to handle, but anyone can do the workout and get strong fast. anyway, sorry for the rant, heres our splits

Monday: Bench

Tuesday: cleans, backsquats

Wednesday: jerks, bench (focus on jerks more than bench on Wed.)

Thursday: cleans, frontsquats

Friday: Bench, jerks

i don't know if that's a lot or a little, it's just what we do.

smokinHawk
02-01-2007, 06:16 AM
well my muscles are never sore. I'm a part of a weightlifting team that has won 22 out of the last 30 state championships. We are the most dominant high school team in the state of Florida. we've had dozens upon dozens of individual state champions. I think i know what I'm talking about. We work our asses off and produce results. we've even have an Olympian alumni. we workout 5 days a week, during student vacations when other teams don't, during the summer, and even on some holidays. maybe its too much for you guys to handle, but anyone can do the workout and get strong fast. anyway, sorry for the rant, heres our splits

Monday: Bench

Tuesday: cleans, backsquats

Wednesday: jerks, bench (focus on jerks more than bench on Wed.)

Thursday: cleans, frontsquats

Friday: Bench, jerks

i don't know if that's a lot or a little, it's just what we do.

first off if your muscles arnt sore your not working with enough intesity or heavy weight.
when i was young and foolish first starting out i could bench every other day, my muscles wernt sore, cause i didnt work them that hard, even though i did ten sets of ten, when i learned to work them harder i had to cut down to 2 times a week, then when i started to use heavy weights, my muscles didnt heal in time /have enough rest to recouperate so i had to cut down to benching once a week, as injuries started to show from doing it twice a week.
my lifts went up faster doing it only once a week, as i finally hit a double raw on the bench.
Take the advice from some one who has been their and done that, in a year or two your joints and tendons will hav eproblems from the way your lifting now, and your muscles will grow faster if you bring up the intensity and cut down the number of days.
when i was about your age and weight i was benching 275 (137lb body weight) as it went up pretty easy from 230ish pounds to the 275 once i went to once a week.
As everyone else here says " your muscles don't grow in the gym but out of it when you rest" that is true.

maybe if your team did that you would have won 30 out of 30

vdizenzo
02-01-2007, 12:19 PM
well my muscles are never sore. I'm a part of a weightlifting team that has won 22 out of the last 30 state championships. We are the most dominant high school team in the state of Florida. we've had dozens upon dozens of individual state champions. I think i know what I'm talking about. We work our asses off and produce results. we've even have an Olympian alumni. we workout 5 days a week, during student vacations when other teams don't, during the summer, and even on some holidays. maybe its too much for you guys to handle, but anyone can do the workout and get strong fast. anyway, sorry for the rant, heres our splits

Monday: Bench

Tuesday: cleans, backsquats

Wednesday: jerks, bench (focus on jerks more than bench on Wed.)

Thursday: cleans, frontsquats

Friday: Bench, jerks

i don't know if that's a lot or a little, it's just what we do.

Although I don't like your workout or maybe even your attitude, I really appreciate your work ethic. I would not recommend this program to others, but I'm glad it has been working for you guys.

Paul Stagg
02-01-2007, 01:20 PM
first off if your muscles arnt sore your not working with enough intesity or heavy weight.


100% incorrect.

Carry on.

WillKuenzel
02-01-2007, 01:47 PM
first off if your muscles arnt sore your not working with enough intesity or heavy weight.

What? Was has soreness got to do with anything?

Typically after you've been training for a while, then when you get sore, its a good indication of the beginnings of overtraining.

vdizenzo
02-01-2007, 05:41 PM
What? Was has soreness got to do with anything?

Typically after you've been training for a while, then when you get sore, its a good indication of the beginnings of overtraining.

Soreness is not an indication of overtraining. Most of the people I know in this sport who compete on an elite level usually feel like they have been hit by a truck. I ice bodyparts on a regular basis to combat soreness.

RhodeHouse
02-01-2007, 06:36 PM
I have to agree with VD, I feel like I've been hit by a truck after every heavy Squat/DL and Bench session. If you really want to increase your bench max, read and re-read every article written about the Westside Methods and the Metal Militia. Also, follow mccray's training log, vdizenzo's log, and my log. We all train together. I'm not trying to say we know it all, but our training is a combination of the Metal Militia (vdizenzo is a Crawford disciple) and the Westside stuff (how I learned to powerlift). Read and teach yourself about how to train. That's how you'll succeed in powerlifting or strength training in general. JMO

cameronp81
02-01-2007, 07:19 PM
first off if your muscles arnt sore your not working with enough intesity or heavy weight.
when i was young and foolish first starting out i could bench every other day, my muscles wernt sore, cause i didnt work them that hard, even though i did ten sets of ten, when i learned to work them harder i had to cut down to 2 times a week, then when i started to use heavy weights, my muscles didnt heal in time /have enough rest to recouperate so i had to cut down to benching once a week, as injuries started to show from doing it twice a week.
my lifts went up faster doing it only once a week, as i finally hit a double raw on the bench.
Take the advice from some one who has been their and done that, in a year or two your joints and tendons will hav eproblems from the way your lifting now, and your muscles will grow faster if you bring up the intensity and cut down the number of days.
when i was about your age and weight i was benching 275 (137lb body weight) as it went up pretty easy from 230ish pounds to the 275 once i went to once a week.
As everyone else here says " your muscles don't grow in the gym but out of it when you rest" that is true.

maybe if your team did that you would have won 30 out of 30

Ok dude this comment you laid is completely unresearched or stupid whatever you wanna call it. Vrizzle and I exchanged some ideas not too long ago I already had tremendous respect for Spruce Creek because of what they had done I was trying to add some things to my teams repetoire. Here's your problem smokin hawk maybe you have been there and done it but you've done it wrong. Do you know how to stretch? Its a proven fact that stretching prevents soreness maybe vrizzle stretches well cuz i'm sure being at spruce he works damn hard enough to be sore. Drinking water also prevents soreness dude. Tendons and ligament may start hurting you're right about that but only if you're lifting incorrectly or possibly your joints are just weak try drinking milk. 30 out of 30? Now i know you have no idea of what your saying. 22 out of 30 is absolutely incredible if you have ever watched spruce at the state championship all of their lifters have good form and are extremely strong. Also the crowd at the meet is 3/4 spruce creek fans! They are clearly a weightlifting school and those 8 years they didnt win whos knows what happend maybe somebody scratched out cuz they never lost by more than a few points. My team has won once in the last 25 years but we haven't lost a regular season meet since 1981 so that shows you just how dominant they are. So smokin hawk please shut up.

WillKuenzel
02-01-2007, 08:32 PM
Soreness is not an indication of overtraining. Most of the people I know in this sport who compete on an elite level usually feel like they have been hit by a truck. I ice bodyparts on a regular basis to combat soreness.Do you ice muscles or are you icing joints? I feel almost flu like the next day after a heavy session but just pure muscle soreness, that comes from training a weak point that has been missed for a few weeks. Its not indicitive of growth or response.

chris mason
02-01-2007, 08:39 PM
Place an order with AtLarge. Ask for Wolfe's Top 10 bench tips and the Increase Your Bench in 60 days flyers.

vrizzle
02-01-2007, 09:00 PM
intensity? don't make me laugh. I'm not going to explain myself. this thread is about benching, and as far as benching is concerned i no longer get sore b/c of the intensity and volume of lifting. In the beginning of my freshman year i used to get sore for the first two weeks, every muscle in my body got sore and i worked out through the soreness (which apparently is kind of bad), but after that I've been ok. Sometimes we'll do some random exercise that isolates some muscle and that might get sore. nothing is wrong w/ benching 3 days a week. its comparable to the bulgarians working out 6 days a week, many a time twice in one day. once u work up a tolerance and capacity to workout with that kind of intensity, everything is A OK. Sorry for seeming like a know-it-all ass, but i just gave my opinion on a bench workout that has produced great results. thanks for the backup Cam

bill
02-01-2007, 09:05 PM
I have talked to many about muscle soreness. I almost always get sore from day 1 when I started lifting. Some people are more prone to it than others, is my guess.

smokinHawk
02-02-2007, 06:50 AM
we get all these experts from reading others peoples research, I have done the research myself on my body, i have had 15 years of personal research. Through my path i have done alot wrong, and found things that i have done right to boost my goals extensively. There is still alot i dont know that i am trying to learn like on the squat and deadlift as i am not happy with them. I do know a little bit about the bench and i am always striving to learn more from the experts who have achieved what i want to do. How many people here can match my raw strength pound for pound (i dont mean to come off conceeded). Plus i have never used steriods in my life, all my gains have been through lifting and my diet.
how many people here are training like bodybuilders when they are wanting to boost their strength like powerlifters?
This is my opinion and Im sticking to it: If your muscles arnt getting sore (and they feel worked and exhausted the next couple of days) you didnt work with enough intensity or weight. for those who do that every work out (then appopriatly rest them) will surpass those who dont. Thats what seperates the elites from people like you guys.
this is one reason my bench is so high and my other lifts arnt up to par with them because my intense training for the bench and not hitting the intensity levels on squats and deadlifts.

obviously very few know about intensity, intensity for my is taking 310-320 and doing 4 sets of 10, then busting out a bunch of heavy paused reps from 320-340lbs. that makes my chest, tris and delts tired no matter what, and if it doesnt make them sore, then i up the weight next week cause its time to move up again. Plus i drink alot of milk, and water, and not much else (no pop)

WillKuenzel
02-02-2007, 07:37 AM
So you've done something that works. That doesn't mean that its the most efficient. Pound for pound, I'm about equal you on the bench. Squat and deadlift, you talk about intensity but unless you're just a bench specialist you blow a lot smoke.

I've done just as much research on my body. I've also studied texts, read pubmed and talked to some of the experts. Its about learning what's the most efficient. You can brow beat your body into submission and it will respond but you can also find a more efficient way to train. That's the key to longevity.

Soreness isn't an indicator of growth or response. Its an indicator of lactic acid build up. You're lifting more like a bodybuilder and building sacromere hypertrophy.

Isaac Wilkins
02-02-2007, 07:52 AM
Dude, no wonder you feel like you're hit by a truck.

If you're cranking 4x10 at 75-80% of your 1RM, which I assume is around 400 touch and go (to be able do do around 10 reps with 310 for most people equates to somewhere around a 403 max). This is high, even with the pause in your PR lift (I assume paused).

The eccentric and metabolic load when doing that, especially as relatively strong as you are, is vicious. This contributes greatly to muscular soreness.

If I do a normal ME day with, for example, close-grip bench then it might look something like this:

45x20
135x10
185x5
225x5
275x3
295x3
315x1
335x1
355x1 - Not to failure, but at 100% of former PR.

That means I had three lifts at around 90% or above of my PR max. There's no question I'm going to get stronger. However, I probably won't be that sore as there isn't a whole lot of muscular damage. All of the lighter sets were in no way close to failure, but my intensity reached 100%. Intensity is a mathmatical term in weight training.

Will I follow that with something like 3x10 Incline DB Bench, 4x8 Tate Presses, and 5x5 Pull-ups? Maybe. That could make me sore, but sometimes if I'm in need of a break then coming in, hitting a PR, and doing some recovery work is where it's at.

smokinHawk
02-02-2007, 07:56 AM
So you've done something that works. That doesn't mean that its the most efficient. Pound for pound, I'm about equal you on the bench. Squat and deadlift, you talk about intensity but unless you're just a bench specialist you blow a lot smoke.

I've done just as much research on my body. I've also studied texts, read pubmed and talked to some of the experts. Its about learning what's the most efficient. You can brow beat your body into submission and it will respond but you can also find a more efficient way to train. That's the key to longevity.

Soreness isn't an indicator of growth or response. Its an indicator of lactic acid build up. You're lifting more like a bodybuilder and building sacromere hypertrophy.
you weigh over 200 lbs right?
and have done what 405 in a double ply poly
so its about 2x your body weight with gear.
(im probably not accurate with all the figures due to some quick research and based on what you said)

how is that pound for pound equal to me, weighing 170 and doing 360 raw?
thats 2.11X BW....raw

WillKuenzel
02-02-2007, 09:19 AM
My best raw bench is 385 at 205 and that was 6 months ago. But really that's neither here nor there. We can compare stats all day long but in the end it'll boil down to what you are doing and how long you can keep at it. Let's take a look at what Metal Militia is doing. Let's look at Westside barbell. Compare yourself with others in your weight class look at their routines. If you want a more accurate detail, read through the journal on elitefts. You're not special and only setting yourself up to fail.

Talk about how you are doing all you want but we're looking at the efficiency of your routine and the fact that you have to be sore to get stronger. Hammer yourself into the ground all you want but at some point you'll quit growing and start getting weaker, while others pass you by.

smokinHawk
02-02-2007, 09:47 AM
hmm all that for me saying that benching/working the same muscle groups three times a week is bad, and that you need to rest them for them to grow.
and if you push your self hard on each workout you will achieve faster results.

I dont get how that style of workout is poor effiency. working out hard, then letting your muscle rest and grow.

WillKuenzel
02-02-2007, 09:54 AM
We're trying to say that you don't have to be sore in order to achieve strength. Intensity has nothing to do with soreness.

Lifting heavy and resting are key. That's pretty much what it boils down to, but just because something works for you, don't go sprouting it off as the be-all-and-end-all. There might be something that works better. Have you tried a conjugated form of periodization? Have you always done just a linear periodized routine? Even hardcore advocates of linear periodization are starting to change their tune. Lifting heavy works, but after a certain point, there'll have to be more to it.

If it were just as simple as adding 5lbs every week, we'd all be 600+ benchers in our late 30's or some such.

vdizenzo
02-02-2007, 11:05 AM
I don't mean to toot my own horn, but TOOT TOOT! Come on, seriously guys, let's not turn this into a pissing match. Someone simply asked advice. So give your advice and move on. This is not doing anyone any good.

vrizzle
02-02-2007, 02:50 PM
I agree w/ HomeYield. All i did was give the guy who asked for a bench workout a bench workout. Its worked for me and i said it has produced results, 78 state champions, 22 state titles, to give it validity, not to brag. If u hate it, then hate it. At times my bench workout, is easy as cake. Sometimes its tough as nails (like today). I see guys all the time on my team who say the percentages are too light and they do much more and don't follow the workout and come max time they don't get any stronger. I don't have a "weightlifters" body type in power or olympic (which are about the same) but i do fairly well. Will I be an individual state champion, probably not b/c of genetics, not because i didn't work hard enough.

levronefan
02-02-2007, 07:17 PM
agreed with paul, soreness has nothing to do with progress....

on a side note, for me personally im sore after every workout i do if im going balls to the wall and not cruising.

as far as advice to the orginal poster, reduce your benching to once a week and i think that will help you, stick with sets of 3 and 5, and of course practice form, hit deads and squats hard, and obviously make sure your diet is in check.

RhodeHouse
02-04-2007, 02:18 PM
Just so you guys know, I have all the answers. (I hope you sensed the sarcasm) IMO, bench NO MORE than 2x per week. I've used the vdizenzo modified Militia workout and we are now going back to a more traditional Westside plan. Both work well and have worked well for me and many others. Here are a couple of my simple hints
1. 1-3 rep range
2. Hi Board work for lockout strength -1-5 reps
3. Military Presses 3-10 reps
4. A whole buttload of rows and upper back/rear delt work
5. Don't work any muscle group more than 2x per week.
6. 1 DE or Rep day and 1 ME day