PDA

View Full Version : Losing fat, gaining mass? (CKD stylee)

02-07-2007, 04:45 AM
Sup guys, conceived an idea over the weekend with regards to a cut/bulk sequence that promotes muscle gain and fat loss in tandem, much the same way as a CKD, albeit overall more slowly with increased volume. Check it out, see what you think, if i've gone wrong in assuming anything, or positing erroneous information then please forgive my ignorance, and set me straight.

My thinking goes as follows:

If your body can synthesise 1lb of muscle in a week (mine did - via crash bulk however), then performing half the volume of a single weeks workout will yield half of this. This will involve eating 3500kcal above maintenance (this is my figure - suggestions/hints as to optimise this would be appreciated) over the course of the first 3 days of the cycle, where volume and intensity are increased. The last four days of the cycle will be ketogenic.

Bit of maths for you -

Maintenance - 2800kcal

Over these first three days, one should eat an excess of 3500 kcal above maintenance. It will count as a refeed also, to effect this 3g/2g/1g of carbs per lb of LBM will be consumed each day. I have increased this from 2 days to 3 to promote muscle anabolism, it will slow down the fat loss process but that's a sacrifice i'm willing to make.

I will be eating @ 1400kcal per day for the rest, so four days of ketogenic dieting will yield a deficit of 1400 x 4 = 5600.

Let's assume that my body synthesises a half a pound of muscle over the course of those three days. This requires 800 - 1200 kcal (the body needs 1600 - 2400 to synthesise a whole pound of muscle), leaving an excess of 2300 - 2700 to be stored as fat.

So, we have generated a deficit of 5600 minus 2300 to 2700 = 3300 to 3100; just under a pound of fat. To make up just over a full pound of fat loss, I will incorporate a day of Rippetoe's (which i was and will still be on on till i begin this CKD - This will help me keep the strength i have gained as well as making up the deficit). This should burn about 250 - 450 kcal is my guess, with a bit more factoring in muscle damage and repair.

CKD - 7 Day Cycle

Day 1 - Upper

- Bench Press 3x12
- Close Grip Bench 3x12
- Military Press (standing) 3x12
- Pendlay Row 3x12
- DB Bench 3x12
- Weighted Decline Crunches 2x10
- EZ Curl Bar 3x12

Day 2 - Lower

- Barbell Shrugs 3x12
- Squats 3x12
- SLDL 3x12
- Rack Pulls 3x12

Day 3 - Rest

Day 4 - Deficit begins

Day 5 - Rippetoe's

- Squat 3x5
- Military Press 3x5
- Pendlay Rows 3x5
- Bench Press 3x5
- Crunches 2x8

Day 6 - Rest

Day 7 - Rest

(The 3x12 numbers aren't set in stone, they are liable to be changed to 3/4x8. What do people think about this?)

Rinse and repeat =) Decided to build some mass, hoping the strength i've gained will contribute towards this.

I hope i've got this right, based around a few basic principles of UD2.0 - I know people have gained muscle on that diet whilst losing fat, so it is by no means impossible.

To offset this however, after every two weeks i'll do 4 days of PSMF instead of CKD, this should bring about a slightly greater fat loss (More maths - 800kcal a day on PSMF, 2800 minus 800 multiplied by 4 = 8000kcal; roughly 2.25lbs of fat lost) without affecting metabolism. After which, I will return to the CKD. Diet will be performed in 5 week cycles, so

Week 1 - CKD (1lb fat lost, .5lb LBM gained)
Week 2 - CKD (1lb fat lost, .5lb LBM gained)
Week 3 - PSMF (2.25lb fat lost, .5 LBM gained)
Week 4 - CKD (1lb fat lost, .5 LBM gained)
Week 5 - Full Diet Break. Eating 5000kcal above maintenance. (.75lb fat gained, 1lb LBM gained)

And repeat.

If my calculations are correct, then total muscle gain/fat loss after 5 weeks would be as follows -

Muscle gained - .5lb x 4 + 1lb = 3lb LBM
Fat lost - 1lb x 3 + 2.25 - .75 = 4.5lb Fat

Looks sound to me, although i'd value the opinions of others on this board. Basically just a slower UD2.0, as mentioned previously. Do people think it's viable?

Many thanks in advance for time + opinions.

the doc
02-07-2007, 06:21 AM
are you currently at a lower BF? say 15% or less?

02-07-2007, 08:31 AM
Closer to 25% chief =) Maybe 21-22%. I'm seriously thinking of PSMF'ing in this style. Lyle seems to think that metabolic slowdown occurs after 4 or so days on a very calorie restricted diet. If he's right, I think this style of training should eliminate that and promote hypertrophy. The prospect of not putting on mass is the key reason i'm not cutting yet.

As for the rep ranges during the Upper/Lower days, i'm thinking of switching between 4x8 week one, to 3x10 week two, switching round in this way, maybe throwing in some hammer curls instead of EZ bar ones.

02-07-2007, 01:03 PM
Some feedback would be massively appreciated :)

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
02-07-2007, 01:54 PM
Some patience would be appreciated as well.

Slim Schaedle
02-07-2007, 03:40 PM
Closer to 25% chief =) Maybe 21-22%. I'm seriously thinking of PSMF'ing in this style. Lyle seems to think that metabolic slowdown occurs after 4 or so days on a very calorie restricted diet. If he's right, I think this style of training should eliminate that and promote hypertrophy. The prospect of not putting on mass is the key reason i'm not cutting yet.

As for the rep ranges during the Upper/Lower days, i'm thinking of switching between 4x8 week one, to 3x10 week two, switching round in this way, maybe throwing in some hammer curls instead of EZ bar ones.

How long have you been dieting correctly? (meaning bulk or cut, tracking calories, weight, etc etc)

At 25%, I suspect that consistent training with a decent routine and concrete diet would be more suitable to get you to the point where you can then start making things more complicated and explore different theories/recomp methods.

02-08-2007, 05:27 AM
Once again, you excel yourself.

Some patience would be appreciated as well.

Just finished a 4-5 month bulk, but I wasn't tracking calories. Think i stuck on close to a stone of muscle, perhaps more. I am an FFB, so perhaps it wasn't the best idea ;)

How long have you been dieting correctly? (meaning bulk or cut, tracking calories, weight, etc etc)

At 25%, I suspect that consistent training with a decent routine and concrete diet would be more suitable to get you to the point where you can then start making things more complicated and explore different theories/recomp methods.

the doc
02-08-2007, 07:33 AM
slim said all that needed to be. lyle mcd only recommends UD2 type dieting if you are less than 15%

as far as getting from 25 to 15% i THINk he'd tell you just to get sufficient protein and restrict cals. high fat or low fat.... doesn't matter

Slim Schaedle
02-08-2007, 08:27 AM
Not to mention that not having previously tracked your progress somewhat methodically, you are most likely setting yourself up for failure with such a complicated rotuine.

UD2 is complicated enough for someone who has been doing things "right" for a substantial amount of time. I haven't examined your proposal in depth enough to validate it, but I don't think that's the issue to address at this point in time.

02-08-2007, 10:06 AM
I did track my progress awhile, but then decided to bulk dirty as opposed to clean. I have no problem with restricting calories and keeping track of the amount i've taken, for me it's not an issue. I chose to dirty bulk because i was sick of having to track my food intake for 2-3 years previous to that. Now my appetite has been slaked, so to speak.

I really do appreciate both your opinions, and have also heard that Lyle reccomends only CKD for those on 15% BF. The reason for this, I suspect, perhaps wrongly, is that it is possible to lose more than 1lb a week if your BF is higher than that. If this is actually the case, then I have no problem with slow fat loss - the muscle gain will more than make up for it. As mentioned before, the main reason i haven't cut yet is because I love putting on mass. My main concern is with the actual routine and cycle itself :D

Vapour Trails
02-08-2007, 11:53 AM
I'm going to agree with the others, I'm not sure your proposed routine is the best idea. At your present composition, overfeeding w/ training is still going to pack on fat, maybe more fat than muscle.

Find a method you are most comfortable with and get down to at least 15%, then consider recomposition-type diets. Also, when you do get lean, don't allow yourself to ever blow up again (trust me from experience).

02-08-2007, 01:20 PM
Perhaps switch week 5 to a maintenance week instead? The intention of the additional 3500kcal over first 3 days is to maximise gains. Fat will inevitably be added, yet the deficit more than makes up for this, in that i should shed another pound.

I'm not so inspired by calorie restricted diets whose sole aim is to lose fat. What about a PSMF down to 17~19% BF? I'm really quite enthusiastic about the aforesaid eating plan.

Slim Schaedle
02-08-2007, 05:49 PM
I'm not so inspired by calorie restricted diets whose sole aim is to lose fat. What about a PSMF down to 17~19% BF?

You expressed your dislike of the exact type of diet you ask if we recomend one sentence later.

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
02-08-2007, 05:57 PM
I'm not so inspired by calorie restricted diets whose sole aim is to lose fat. What about a PSMF down to 17~19% BF? I'm really quite enthusiastic about the aforesaid eating plan.Um...all diets to lower body fat percentage are calorie-restricted. Yes...even PSMF. Unless, of course, you use magic or something.