90 degree angle for leg press and squats

[future_engineer]

Hi, my name is Joel Lieber. As my name states, I want to be a civil engineer.
Anyway, today I was in the local twenty-four hour fitness. I was doing my usual leg/chest day by starting of with the leg press. Near the leg press machine I saw a friend of mine. He happened to be doing the same machine.
Well this is why I'm here. So we did the same machine. Eventually, we were both up to 5 plates on each side. That was his max, or as he said it "I don't like to lift heavy on legs cause then I get big in the legs and have to buy new pants." This statement was kinda disturbing and goes beyone why your really there, to have fun and move up in wieght. Anyway,later on, we happen to go to the same machine. He tells me I need to go down and touch my chest with my legs on the leg-press. I'm like " uh no that will hurt your knees." He responed with, "who says."


- Did I mention that I got up to 18 plates total on the leg press.
- Did I mention when I outdid him his wife said "wow"

The main point I'm trying to make here is

Is he correct or is he embaressed in front of his wife?
90 degrees on both leg press and squats is correct right?

[Built]

I'll reserve judgement for leg press, because I have trouble doing that one heavy anyway. But for squats - ass to the grass, baby. Below parallel.

[chemical Andy]

Do what works for you. Most guys here will prolly encourage ATF (ass to floor) squats and discourage leg press, period.

Leg presses are dangerous for your back, especially if your touching your knees to chest. Your spine will get really screwed up, not to mention my knees'll get inflamed while at it. I stop going down right before my spine gets curved.

[Buzzsaw]

My understanding is that leg press, expecially that low, would risk a lower back injury

[Built]

I'd believe it. Now that my back is ninety years old, I don't do leg press at all.

[leveque]

Hi, my name is Joel Lieber. As my name states, I want to be a civil engineer.


Good choice Joel...I'm a civil engineer myself (transportation). It's a great job.

[chemical Andy]

Good choice Joel...I'm a sanitary engineer myself (cleaning). It's a great job.

I think Joel's engineering department's a bit different, but yeah, I guess it's a good job if you're up to it.

[Tofer]

I just switched majors from Math to Civil Engineering. I absolutely love it so far. I only wish I had just gone straight into it when I first started at University.

As for your leg press question, I think you should bring your knees all the way up to your chest, or better yet, just drop the leg press and squat.

[FullTimeStud]

When I used to do leg presses, I would bring my knees down as far as I could. I ended up messing up something in my back about three different times. I would have to leave the gym and couldn't not bend over or even unrack the machine. It would really hurt for two days then completely heal. The only way that this would not happen is if I did not go down that far, only to about parallel.

[DanOz]

Go as low as you can with GOOD FORM. If your lower back starts to round / lift away from the support, you are probably trying to move more weight than you can handle.

[Sleepy Guy]

For squats - ass to the grass, baby. Below parallel.

I love that and soo true. Nothing like seeing guys at the gym do 1/64th squats and then you take that weight and sit down on the ground.

[DanOz]

It is my understanding that ATG is not just an ego thing. When you stop a squat at parallel, the knees take most of the strain in the braking process. When you go ATG, the larger muscles in the hips/hams/glutes take alot of the strain from stopping the downward momentum.

[future_engineer]

I have decided after carful consideration to take everyones advice and still do leg press,but at the same time go all the way down on squats. On the leg press, I will be sticking to 90 degrees so I don't hurt myself,while on squats I will be going butt to bottom. My goal is to get to 250 pounds on the squats.
Right now, I do one set of ten with twenty-five pounds. After that, I do a set of ten with thirty-five pounds. Finally, I do a set of six with fourty-five pounds. The final set, I mentioned, I usually have to have someone spot me.
If anyone knows of a better way to move up(I plan on adding ten pounds to each side next month)let me know. I would add ten now,but my dad wants me to wait till next month. He's worried about me hurting myself.
Anyway, for those wondering my routine. I do legs and chest one day and arms and back another. I do cardio Saturdays before class. I'm worried that if I don't my heart will like crash or something while I work out.
My goal on chest is to get to two-hundred and twenty-five pounds.
My rountine is as follows:

first set: one set of ten with twenty
second: one set of ten with thirty
third: one set of ten with thirty
final: one set of two-three with fifty

By the final set, I am worn out from previos sets. It is my max ,and I have to have someone spot me. On the second one, I am really pushing hard. When I try to go for a third, I can't. I might get half-way on the third, but then I start to drop it. I really enjoy wieght-lifting ,and I love burning my unlimited energy by moving up. If anyone has a better way,let me know

Oh and civil engineering is very similar to transportation engineering. I can't post a link to my yahoo personals site. Just go to yahoo personals and type in women seeking man. Then type in zip code 80126. My title: "Hi,I'm new at this."There is one facial shot, and one upper-body shot. Later I will post the link on this site. Unfourtantly,for now, it won't let me.



copy and paste that. There is a face shot and a upper body shot. Well, I really must get back to my trigometry homework now(yes I know this is not civil engineering level math). Luckily, the next class, Calculas 1 will count towards my degree. I know this is not a math forum, but yesterday I just learned radians. I really enjoy it!!!!! I can now convert from radians to degrees and find sin,cos,tan,cosec,sec,and cotan. If there is a way to figure the six trigonomety funtions without converting from radians to degrees, please let me know!!



Joel

[Rock Steady]

- Did I mention that I got up to 18 plates total on the leg press.
- Did I mention when I outdid him his wife said "wow"



OMG OMG OMG... dude you are sooooo strong. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

- Did I mention that I got up to 18 plates total on the leg press.Leg press really isn't an example of real world strength. If you tried doing squats, you'd probably only be able to do half of that.



He tells me I need to go down and touch my chest with my legs on the leg-press. I'm like " uh no that will hurt your knees."The leg press in general will probably ruin your knees over time no matter what position you're doing them in. Thus is the nature of machines forcing your joints into a movement that is not natural to them.

Squats and squat variations are what I'd recommend over leg press. But that's just me.

[mikesbytes]

Why bother with the leg press machine, when you can do swats, which is a compound exercise?

I've decided to reteach myself swats and include some ATF ones. Some old dogs do want to learn new tricks.

[Rock Steady]

Why bother with the leg press machine, when you can do swats, which is a compound exercise?

I've decided to reteach myself swats and include some ATF ones. Some old dogs do want to learn new tricks.

The leg press is a compound exercise as well, but squats are preferred due to the more natural motion.

[HahnB]

L
The leg press in general will probably ruin your knees over time no matter what position you're doing them in

Squats and squat variations are what I'd recommend over leg press. But that's just me.

I don't care to start a long debate on squats, but I was told the exact opposite by 2 orthopedic surgeons, and a few other doctors. As it seems to me it's pretty much agreed up on across the board by the medical community that sqauts, regardless of form, have a significant potential to harm your knees-more so than the leg press or other movements. The only people who seem to disagree with them are bodybuilders and personal trainers, not doctors.

[Sensei]

I don't care to start a long debate on squats, but I was told the exact opposite by 2 orthopedic surgeons, and a few other doctors. As it seems to me it's pretty much agreed up on across the board by the medical community that sqauts, regardless of form, have a significant potential to harm your knees-more so than the leg press or other movements. The only people who seem to disagree with them are bodybuilders and personal trainers, not doctors.
I know for a fact that there are plenty of MDs (sports med, orthopedic, etc.) who have no problem whatsoever w. squats. Maybe they're not the ones writing articles or quoting outdated and poorly constructed research, but they're out there.

[Built]

I've been managing around a back injury for over a year now. The physio who helped me the most is at Sports Med in Vancouver, older guy, huge, consults on powerlifting teams. Clyde Smith. Clinical Assistant Professor, UBC Dept. of Family Practice.

I couldn't squat well after I hurt my back. This guy was delighted when I told him what I was squatting before I hurt my back - and that I squatted ass to floor.

The deep squat is a natural movement.

He told me to train natural movements and I'll always be able to do them. And he got me squatting again - although I've switched to fronts because I can hit my quads better that way, and with less weight on the bar.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

My surgeon recommends squats and "natural movements" like you just said, Built.

And if you think that's agreed "across the medical community", you really need to get out more, Hahn. And generally the reasons for blaming squats is when people do them wrong and injure themselves. Then when they go to the orthos, the orthos hear "I hurt ______ doing squats". Misinformation and a lack of proper analysis of the actual lift and causes leading to injury have given the squat a bad reputation...for years it has been this way. Add that to horribly outdated information and you got wonderful BS that spreads like wildfire. Proper analysis and updated research suggest squats, when done properly, are the best exercise for the knee joints. If you think joint shearing via forced planes of motion with machines is somehow better than natural squats...the way the body is biomechanically meant to move...then you are kidding yourself.

And listen to Sensei. He's right.

[mikesbytes]

If anyones got any links to any papers on the topic of knee issues associated with leg press and/or swats, I'd be delighted to read them. My knees F****** out at the age of 34 and it took me 10 years to get them better.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

It's SQUATS, not swats.

[HahnB]

Has the medical community really discovered any mind blowing revolutionary information about the knee in the last few years? The natural movement argument makes no sense at all. I can swing my arm in a cirle like I'm doing a fast ball pitch, it's a natural movement. Does that mean it's completely safe for me to swing a 100lb dumbell in circles as fast as I can? It would without a doubt cause an injury.

I'm not saying squats are bad, I'm just saying I think that there's some substance in the fact that they are typically ridiculed by most doctors. I'm sure orthopedic surgeons are aware of what a squat is, and what is correct and bad form. I'm yet to make up my mind, I just think you should always look at both sides of the story.

[Rock Steady]

It's SQUATS, not swats.

The main cause of injury isn't the movement, it's the irony of the misspellings. If you spell it 'swat,' a S.W.A.T. team comes and breaks your kneecaps. Ouch!

[mikesbytes]

It's SQUATS, not swats.

HAVE A NICE DAY

[Built]

HannB, the only orthos I've spoken to are all pro-atf squat.

I'm surprised you've had a different experience.

[Nik00117]

My powerlifting coach and me had an agruement about this "How low to go on LP" quite frankly I 100% disgree with bringing my legs to the point wher ehe wants which is basically on my chest... When I do legpress I do 90 degrees or a bit lower

[Sensei]

Hahn,
Your arguments are really all over the place.

Has the medical community really discovered any mind blowing revolutionary information about the knee in the last few years?I love doctors and all, in fact some of my best friends are MDs, but that doesn't mean they can't be wrong... You're probably too young to remember when they used to say that steroids didn't really work.

The natural movement argument makes no sense at all. I can swing my arm in a cirle like I'm doing a fast ball pitch, it's a natural movement. Does that mean it's completely safe for me to swing a 100lb dumbell in circles as fast as I can? It would without a doubt cause an injury.This is a really poor analogy and you know it.
I don't feel like typing a page on squat vs. leg press, but logic, kinesiology, and physics are on my side...

I'm not saying squats are bad, I'm just saying I think that there's some substance in the fact that they are typically ridiculed by most doctors. In other words, squats are bad?

I'm sure orthopedic surgeons are aware of what a squat is, and what is correct and bad form.I definately don't agree with you on this. Most people who lift regularly don't know what correct squat form is...

[HahnB]

It was presented to me by my doctors that their colleagues were in agreement, but it's really beside the point since it's not a large sample of doctors-but from their experience that's how they feel. The "natural" movement can be looked at in different ways. It was my understanding that any way your body can move while standing up is a natural movement. So I was under the assumption that swinging my arm would be a natural movement. It may not be natural to do it with 100lbs, but neither is squatting with 3 or 400lbs.

[KoolDrew]

While we're on the topic of how ATF squats are the best way to go, what would you guys say about stance width?

[RichMcGuire]

It was presented to me by my doctors that their colleagues were in agreement, but it's really beside the point since it's not a large sample of doctors-but from their experience that's how they feel. The "natural" movement can be looked at in different ways. It was my understanding that any way your body can move while standing up is a natural movement. So I was under the assumption that swinging my arm would be a natural movement. It may not be natural to do it with 100lbs, but neither is squatting with 3 or 400lbs.

Comparing "swinging" a dumbell of 100 lbs to a 300 lb squat is not a good comparison. Im still not squating as heavy as I can because Im still getting used to the movement (ligaments, tendons) and Im doing 225 atf - But If i picked up a couple 100's dumbells, I'd only be able to bench press them a few times.

The thing is, gradual increases are safe. What is natural to one person may not be natural to another. The body mechanics remain the same - but the force load changes. For example, it would not be natural for me to load up 1,000 lbs on the bench press - I would hurt everything ;)

And if it matters to anyone, since I was younger, Ive always been able to pop my knees. Sometimes it would keep me awake as well. Since I started atf-squats, I havent had any problems - and the popping has greatly reduced.

[bill]

First most of the leg press machine I've seen have limited ROM. So if your not trying to get close to your chest, keep your lower back on the pad. Then your doing very limited ROM.
18 plates you should have some huge legs, if your hitting many good reps.

[dw06wu]

When I used to do leg presses, I would bring my knees down as far as I could. I ended up messing up something in my back about three different times. I would have to leave the gym and couldn't not bend over or even unrack the machine. It would really hurt for two days then completely heal. The only way that this would not happen is if I did not go down that far, only to about parallel.
:withstupi

I used to go pretty heavy on leg press and I've certainly tweaked my lower back on that machine before. Be careful bro.

[future_engineer]

quote:OMG OMG OMG... dude you are sooooo strong.

You know there realy wasnt any reason to mean or sarcastic....

Just say I can do more or whatever. To me it's a big deal.In fact, any improvement show your improving. I work out for the enjoyment of working out. The same goes to cardio. I think you would be better to do the same.

[future_engineer]

Here is a upper body shot of me. I will try and get a lowerbody one.
It was taken with a cell phone.

[Howard 9]

I do leg press very little, if I wanna hit my quads I'd rather do front squats or lunges. But when I do it I certainly don't go to my chest cause it hurts like a bitch lol.

[Tofer]

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if your legs are proportionate with your upper body, an 18 plate leg press with full ROM isn't happening. You need to lower the weight dramatically and work on your ROM. Or better yet, as I have already said, just ditch it altogether and head to the squat rack.

[deeder]

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if your legs are proportionate with your upper body, an 18 plate leg press with full ROM isn't happening. You need to lower the weight dramatically and work on your ROM. Or better yet, as I have already said, just ditch it altogether and head to the squat rack.

:withstupi

[Nik00117]

18 plate.... Um on my machine thats 810 lbs... I don't see how you can do that unless you've bene lifting for a VERY Long time.

[bill]

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if your legs are proportionate with your upper body, an 18 plate leg press with full ROM isn't happening. You need to lower the weight dramatically and work on your ROM. Or better yet, as I have already said, just ditch it altogether and head to the squat rack.

:withstupi :withstupi

[future_engineer]

Thanks for giving nice,honest feedback!Here are some pics of my lower body.Theres a pic in there of my chest. I also included a picture of one of my best pals lol. Again I'm not too worried about propotion or how I look.Like I said, I work out for movin up! I'm not saying wanting to look good is a bad thing,but I just work out cause I enjoy all of it! I also like that feeling of maxing yourself or wearing yourself out. When I do cardio I like the feeling of challengine myself. In other words, I like to push myself. I guess for the feeling of challengingness(yes I know this is not a word) and to accomplish someting hard for me! I like to work out for sports as well!
By the way, besides all this I do Dance Dance Revolution, Biking, and Basketball. I just started DDR and I love Basketball. I don't bike as of now because I live in Colorado and there is snow on the ground

Here is my full workout:

One day

Arms and Back Day

do arm curl machine 5 sets

set 1: 45 pounds 10 reps
set 2: 45 pounds + 10 10 reps
set 3: 45 pounds + 20 10 reps
set 4: 45 pounds + 30 10 reps
set 5: 45 pounds times 2 10 reps


Curl dumbells

Set 1: 40 pound on each side set of 10(on each side)
Set 2: 40 pounds on each side same
Set 3 : 50 pounds on each side about 5-6(by then my arms are like at the point where if i do more I will pull sometinh)

the first two of the dumbells are done with good form standing up(back straight ect.) The last set is done on a inclined thing where I rest my arm for good form. I used to do one set of 35 pounds as the first but I moved up.


triceps

well this machine is hard to desribe but you put a metal thing on it... triceps is the one thing my dad beats me at.......
Which is pretty good seeing as hes 48!
metal thing pully system thing

1st set: 70 pounds 10 rep
2nd set: 80 pounds 10 rep
3rd set: 100 pounds 5 rep(this is the most I can do


rope pulley thingy

1st set: 50 pounds Until I can't do any more
(25-35 reps)



Back


Pull dont machine (close grip)

You know to be honest I don't really pay attention to what I do on this machine. I know this is bad.The next arm/back day I'll pay attention



Back pull down free weight


1st set: 45 pounds times 2 reps 10
2nd set: 45 pounds times 4 reps 10
3rd set: 45 poinds times 6 reps 10


back pull ups

Until I can't do anymore(there is no wieght on this exercize)
11-15 (I'm getting close to 17)



Exercizes I do on BOTH days(after Im done with the arm/back or leg/chest


situps
I thought it might be usful for you guys to know what I used to do

60 straight sit ups inclined all the way on the board

What I do now

set 1: 40 straight sit ups(board at highest) with 25 pounds on my stomach

set 2: usually 15-20 situps (board at highests) with 45 pounds on my stomach (at this point I'm maxing myself)


I only could do ten sit-ups when I started working out!I have improved in this

ab sit up thing(you put you arms on two bars and to crunches)

1st set: 50-80(kinda fast ones) with my hands on the bars and my head up all the way

2nd set: 50 with my hands behind where you put your head


Lower back thing
20 reps To be honest, I don't move up in this very much. It pulls at my hamstrings.


Last but not least 60 push-ups


After everying

ten to fifteen minutes on the treadmill

I enter in my age(19)
wieght(160)
time
and it adjust it to the heart rate I need to stay at




Saturdays sometimes....

The bike for thirty minutes. This Saturday I was studying for class so I couldn't do it. Oh and there is no way to find the trig funtions of radians that I know of yet. However, I know that radians are equal to the arm that thier angles intercept! This is veeeeeery useful for life applied aplications.



Like this:

Toyoko then looking at the world from a top view. Is 60 degrees west of the Usa. Find the distance west to tokoyo.


I'll shut up now lol. Let me know what ya think

[KoolDrew]

Where are the compound exercises? Your workout should be composed of mostly compound movements. Ditch most of the isolation work and replace them with bench press, squat, deadlifts, military press, rows, etc. You may have already mentioned this earlier so sorry if I missed it, but what exactly are your goals?

[bill]

Kooldrew is right your just fooling yourself with all of the plates on leg press.

[bjohnso]

Thanks for giving nice,honest feedback!Here are some pics of my lower body.Theres a pic in there of my chest. I also included a picture of one of my best pals lol. Again I'm not too worried about propotion or how I look.Like I said, I work out for movin up! I'm not saying wanting to look good is a bad thing,but I just work out cause I enjoy all of it! I also like that feeling of maxing yourself or wearing yourself out. When I do cardio I like the feeling of challengine myself. In other words, I like to push myself. I guess for the feeling of challengingness(yes I know this is not a word) and to accomplish someting hard for me! I like to work out for sports as well!
By the way, besides all this I do Dance Dance Revolution, Biking, and Basketball. I just started DDR and I love Basketball. I don't bike as of now because I live in Colorado and there is snow on the ground

Here is my full workout:

One day

Arms and Back Day

do arm curl machine 5 sets

set 1: 45 pounds 10 reps
set 2: 45 pounds + 10 10 reps
set 3: 45 pounds + 20 10 reps
set 4: 45 pounds + 30 10 reps
set 5: 45 pounds times 2 10 reps


Curl dumbells

Set 1: 40 pound on each side set of 10(on each side)
Set 2: 40 pounds on each side same
Set 3 : 50 pounds on each side about 5-6(by then my arms are like at the point where if i do more I will pull sometinh)

the first two of the dumbells are done with good form standing up(back straight ect.) The last set is done on a inclined thing where I rest my arm for good form. I used to do one set of 35 pounds as the first but I moved up.


triceps

well this machine is hard to desribe but you put a metal thing on it... triceps is the one thing my dad beats me at.......
Which is pretty good seeing as hes 48!
metal thing pully system thing

1st set: 70 pounds 10 rep
2nd set: 80 pounds 10 rep
3rd set: 100 pounds 5 rep(this is the most I can do


rope pulley thingy

1st set: 50 pounds Until I can't do any more
(25-35 reps)



Back


Pull dont machine (close grip)

You know to be honest I don't really pay attention to what I do on this machine. I know this is bad.The next arm/back day I'll pay attention



Back pull down free weight


1st set: 45 pounds times 2 reps 10
2nd set: 45 pounds times 4 reps 10
3rd set: 45 poinds times 6 reps 10


back pull ups

Until I can't do anymore(there is no wieght on this exercize)
11-15 (I'm getting close to 17)



Exercizes I do on BOTH days(after Im done with the arm/back or leg/chest


situps
I thought it might be usful for you guys to know what I used to do

60 straight sit ups inclined all the way on the board

What I do now

set 1: 40 straight sit ups(board at highest) with 25 pounds on my stomach

set 2: usually 15-20 situps (board at highests) with 45 pounds on my stomach (at this point I'm maxing myself)


I only could do ten sit-ups when I started working out!I have improved in this

ab sit up thing(you put you arms on two bars and to crunches)

1st set: 50-80(kinda fast ones) with my hands on the bars and my head up all the way

2nd set: 50 with my hands behind where you put your head


Lower back thing
20 reps To be honest, I don't move up in this very much. It pulls at my hamstrings.


Last but not least 60 push-ups


After everying

ten to fifteen minutes on the treadmill

I enter in my age(19)
wieght(160)
time
and it adjust it to the heart rate I need to stay at




Saturdays sometimes....

The bike for thirty minutes. This Saturday I was studying for class so I couldn't do it. Oh and there is no way to find the trig funtions of radians that I know of yet. However, I know that radians are equal to the arm that thier angles intercept! This is veeeeeery useful for life applied aplications.



Like this:

Toyoko then looking at the world from a top view. Is 60 degrees west of the Usa. Find the distance west to tokoyo.


I'll shut up now lol. Let me know what ya think



:eek:

Just do WWB1 dude.

And I don't know if I'm just being an idiot or what, but wtf is the thing in the 3rd picture?

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

And I don't know if I'm just being an idiot or what, but wtf is the thing in the 3rd picture?It looks like a bird.


And to the OP, your workout is quite ridiculous in a very bad way. Try one of these routines ~>
BGB (http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=255)
5x5 (http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm#PART%20I:%20The%20Program)

Another link to check out ~>
How to do cardio if you must (http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=292)

[future_engineer]

The thing in the third picture is my cockatiel star. As I mention before, She is my pal lol. I have had her for a


Goals:


to bench 225 pounds(halfway there)


to squat 275 pounds(a third of the way there)

to curl 60 pounds(75 percent there)


To get all around strong!!!!!


I'm not really working out for the ladies though. More for my personal goals.Now that I think about it, I wanna be able to walk out in public fearless of some getto dude beating the crap out of me. I wanna be strong enough to be a gaurdian or protector. I will need to lose wieght obviosly for this and get stronger. So what is the typical strong guy wieght? Please let me know. Oh and I was skinner when I first started working out three years ago. I have gained some muscle(as well as fat) since then.


By the way I hope your all not pissed about my bird pic.

[Rock Steady]

This thread has motivated me to stop doing the leg press entirely. I did walking lunges today and they were much more rewarding than I expected. I recommend.

[mikesbytes]

This thread has motivated me to stop doing the leg press entirely. I did walking lunges today and they were much more rewarding than I expected. I recommend.

Ha Ha. Hey, thats not so bad anyway, good to change things from time to time.

BTW future_engineer, good to see a bit of humour. Nice bird, cheap in Aus, must be expensive where you are.

[KoolDrew]

Try Bill Starr 5x5.

[HahnB]

Comparing "swinging" a dumbell of 100 lbs to a 300 lb squat is not a good comparison.

Why? Because you say so?

[RichMcGuire]

Why? Because you say so?


Think about the muscles involved in "swinging" a dumbell and then doing heavy squats. Be realistic.

Can you pick up a 100 lb and swing it around like a stick? I'd like to see someone do it.

Its not a good comparison. You should have quoted my entire message.