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ShockBoxer
02-20-2007, 07:55 AM
This is very frustrating, so bear with me.

When I started WBB1 I was 183. I cut down to 160 in six months, and that was awesome. The problem is I've been 160-165 ever since.

When I hit 160 a few years ago my calipers read 12mm on my superiallic fold. I cut to 156 and they still read 12mm: I just got a hell of a lot weaker. I bulked to 165 and they read 14mm.

I've done three or four mini bulk and cuts since then. Before I got injured I had bulked from 160-165 in two months. 14mm. I took last month off and dropped 5 pounds. 12mm.

From what I can tell, by the way my pants fit and what the calipers say, it doesn't matter whether it takes me a month to gain 5 pounds or three months... it all ends up fat.

I'm planning on going for 170 this year, but the last thing I want is for it to be 170 and 16-18 mm on the superiallic. I eat dessert one night a week: Besides that I keep simple sugars low. I get most of my calories during the day. I keep night time carbs down. I train westside style so my compounds are done massively heavy and accessory work is done in the 6-15 rep range. I do hiit. My fats are a little low by the site standards but that's only because I have IBS and can't digest them properly without severe pain anyways.

Maintaining 160 is a piece of cake: Eat 1800-2500 calories of whatever the hell I want and the scale will never move. I have to go brutally low (1500) or freaking high (by my standards - 3000+) to get the scale moving.

I want to be big, dammit, not fat (fatter).

phatmike
02-20-2007, 08:04 AM
What does your diert look like specifically (macro breakdown)? What's your workout look like?

ShockBoxer
02-20-2007, 08:44 AM
Right now a standard day is
2149 calories
86 fat
195 carb
157 pro
(37%, 34%, 30%)

Which falls in my maintenance range because I'm undecided if I dare push for 170.

I use a westside upper/lower dynamic/max split. I do the DE early in the week because I eat a cheat meal every friday on a date and I like to nestle it between MEs.

Day 1
Dynamic bench movement
heavy shoulders
heavy tri
moderate rows

Day 2
Dynamic leg movement (squat or dl, whichever I'm not MEing that week)
moderate hamstring
moderate back
abs

Day 3
ME bench movement, but I'm coming off a shoulder injury so want to ease back in with a 5x5 for a while
light shoulders
light triceps
moderate rows

Day 4
ME leg movement (squat or dl)
light hamstring
light back
abs

DE = 8 sets of 3 or 10 sets of 2, 50% max
ME = 3 lifts above 90%
heavy = 2 or 3 sets of 5-6
moderate = 3 sets of 10
light = 1 or 2 sets of 15. Conditioning

phatmike
02-20-2007, 09:12 AM
Cool. Thanks for the info.

A couple things..what are your goals? I love the westside method, but IMO it is used by too many people looking for the "perfect" program. Sometimes simpler and more basic is better. This is by no means a rip on westside. It obviously works, and there are some big and strong people who use it. There are lots of other things that work too. Again, you have to ask yourself what your goals are. Curious, how long have you been using it (westside)?

As far as the diet, I hate to come off as a carb-o-phobe here, but I know what works for me. If you are struggling to acheive your goals, it is pointless to keep doing the same things over and over if those things aren't working. With that said, I would switch some of the cals you have allotted to carbs and move them to protein. Try to keep the carbs concentrated to peri-workout, and maybe breakfast if you can afford the cals...

In the end, I think you really need to first determine what your goals really are, and then prioritize them. Let's be honest here, you want to get bigger, so there is going to be some fat that comes with that as well. I agree that going to 16-18 mm might be a little too high, so you are going to need to figure out how to tweak your nutrition, and possibly add more daily movement (i.e. a daily walk that will not interfere with your recovery ability) to get there.

Good luck

PS With all of this said, do you have any pics? At your weight, I can't imagine that you are too fat...

ShockBoxer
02-20-2007, 09:56 AM
My goals? A 1500 total before I die. And to look like I lift with clothes on.

I've been doing westside style programs for almost a year. I put 100 pounds on my deadlift and 50 pounds on my squat without changing weight so it's worked for me.

Potatoes are my weakness. I eat them every lunch. Most of those carbs are breakfast and lunch (around 150 g of them). I could lose the potatoes and replace them with a scoop of whey, I suppose.

This is just a maintenance day style diet. To bulk I add another half cup of peanuts and another scoop of whey, which adds 600 cals and a skews the macros towards being fat and protein heavy.

As for can't be that fat, I AM very short. The average 5'4 man weighs 135 and I am a good 25-30 pounds heavier than that (though lower body fat). I have a pic up in the member forum from a few years ago when I was 165. It's because I could use the exact same picture today, even though I'm a lot stronger, that I'm frustrated. All of my gains have been CNS adaptaption as far as I can tell, which is why my lifts have tanked so badly with a month off to heal my shoulder.

PoutineEh
02-20-2007, 10:45 AM
dunno what to tell you, but i feel like i have the same problem. seems like when i cut, i lose weight via muscle loss. when i bulk, it seems to be all fat. id like to hear peoples opinions.

Roddy
02-20-2007, 11:25 AM
weird hey.... have you tried a clense? Do you drink alcohol?

Sidior
02-20-2007, 11:36 AM
I know you don't weigh much but why not try keeping everything the same, and just upping protein to 300g a day for awhile. This would mean about 600 extra cals. 600 cals above maintenance should be enough to bulk on and all that extra protein cant hurt.

ShockBoxer
02-20-2007, 11:42 AM
No. No alcohol. I might have a rum and coke a year, or a quarter glass of wine at a wedding. Maybe half a beer during the last game of the Stanley Cup finals.

I don't know. My program is solid and kicks my ass. My simple sugars are in check. I get stronger all the time. Maybe I will ease my way up to 170 and see what kind of fat gains I get on a 90% clean bulk. It's only 10 pounds, which means it's nothing I couldn't drop again in a month or two if it goes as i expect and I get 9 pounds of fat and 1 pound of muscle.

ShockBoxer
02-20-2007, 11:44 AM
I know you don't weigh much but why not try keeping everything the same, and just upping protein to 300g a day for awhile. This would mean about 600 extra cals. 600 cals above maintenance should be enough to bulk on and all that extra protein cant hurt.

That's not a bad idea at all, and easy as hell to do using powder.

Vapour Trails
02-20-2007, 12:13 PM
Give Kelly Bagget's new book a look. What you are describing is pretty common. Fact is most genetically average people with gain 2 pounds of fat for every pound of muscle, especially if bodyfat is higher to begin with.

Edit: The book is called the "No Bull Muscle Building Plan", how to add slabs of mass without turning into a lard ass (or something similar).

PoutineEh
02-20-2007, 06:58 PM
Give Kelly Bagget's new book a look. What you are describing is pretty common. Fact is most genetically average people with gain 2 pounds of fat for every pound of muscle, especially if bodyfat is higher to begin with.

Edit: The book is called the "No Bull Muscle Building Plan", how to add slabs of mass without turning into a lard ass (or something similar).

i bought that and read it over x-mas. seems pretty cool. im not doing it now, but im going to do it in the summer when i can buy my own food. did you happen to try it out yet?

Vapour Trails
02-22-2007, 11:31 AM
i bought that and read it over x-mas. seems pretty cool. im not doing it now, but im going to do it in the summer when i can buy my own food. did you happen to try it out yet?


No I don't own it...yet, but I've heard good reviews.

Built
02-22-2007, 03:02 PM
You eat most of your carbs in the early part of the day. What time of day do you train?

ShockBoxer
02-22-2007, 05:28 PM
6:30 or 7. I eat a quarter cup of peanuts or have a protein shake at around 3:30 or 4 (I keep a tub of whey and a shaker in my desk: I am officially a freak!).

Usually take my post workout whey in 8 or 12 oz of soymilk. That's the second largest infusion of carbs in the day.

Built
02-23-2007, 10:58 AM
Have you considered trying the carbs mostly targeted to the meal before and the meal or two right after you lift?

And why soymilk?

ShockBoxer
02-23-2007, 09:17 PM
Those pretty much are the meals before and right after. Short of taking lunch at the deli at four (and that's way too long to be sitting at my desk without fresh air).

And soymilk because it's not on the 'avoid at all costs' IBS list like dairy is.

Built
02-23-2007, 09:29 PM
You train in the AM then. I was thinking PM.

And I hear you on the IBS thing.

ShockBoxer
02-24-2007, 11:33 AM
No... pm.

Typical day

Meal 1: 2 scoops of whey, sometime before 8 am.
Meal 2: quarter cup of peanuts or bowl or raisin bran, 9 am or so. Sometimes both.
Meal 3: Big ass lunch filled with chicken and potatoes mostly, around noon
Meal 4: Quarter cup of peanuts or 2 scoops of whey. Fairly lax on this meal and often skip it.

Training session: Somewhere between 6 and 8 pm.

Meal 5: Post workout shake, 8-12 oz of soymilk, two scoops of whey
Meal 6: Something chicken based, usually a burger, around 10 pm

Bed at midnight.

Repeat.

When I bulk I just add more peanuts. When I cut I lose the side dish at lunch.

Built
02-24-2007, 12:05 PM
Ooookay then - now we're getting somewhere.

You game to try a slightly different strategy?

Meal 1: protein and fat OR protein and carb (oats?) before 8 am.
Meal 2: Protein and fat, fibrous fruit (berries) or veggies 9 am or so.
Meal 3: Protein and fat, veggies - big salad with chicken, avocado, nuts, olive oil dressing around noon
Meal 4: about an hour and a half before you train, protein and starch. Little bit of fat okay - sweet potato with chicken or beef, hell, even sweet potato with a tin of tun cracked into it.

Training session: Somewhere between 6 and 8 pm.

Meal 5: Post workout shake, 8-12 oz of soymilk, two scoops of whey, toss in powdered oats into this shake
Meal 6: protein and more carb - chicken burger on a bun or with potato or rice 10 pm

Bed at midnight.(cottage cheese or some other protein, fruit, nuts if you can afford the calories)

************************
See how this makes you feel. I get the feeling you're not targeting enough of your limited carbs around your lifting.

You can experiment with the AM carbs - some people swear by their AM oatmeal, personally it just makes me hungry all day. Only you can know this one.

Worth a shot?

ShockBoxer
02-24-2007, 01:23 PM
Can't really digest oats and food less than an hour or two before bed means late for work the next day, but the rest looks good. Any suggestions on something dry and starchy that I could keep in my desk and munch on when having my afternoon shake as meal four? I hate cooking potatoes... that's why I buy them hot as the side dish at the deli.

Built
02-24-2007, 01:42 PM
How about rice cakes? Popcorn? Or get your potato and just heat it up when you eat it a little later.

ShockBoxer
02-27-2007, 06:10 AM
Tried the salad with dressing and chicken thing. Total digestion disaster. One of the worst attacks I've ever had. Guess I won't be doing that again (it's not the first time salad with olive oil and/or dressing has set me off, but usually what does and doesn't isn't predictable. Lately I'm 3/3 on salads with any sort of fatty dressing, though).