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View Full Version : HELP With 2ND Carb-meal Before Bed..



MonStar1023
02-18-2002, 08:37 PM
I am following NHE as you all know. Well twice a week I have a HUGE carb-up meal with a bunch of insulin mimicker supplements like ALA vanadyl etc.

Well I was thinking, after talking to a few people, about adding a second small carb-meal before bed. Like something with simple carbs and very low fat. Like cereal and skim milk or something. Along with this I am going to take around 300 mg. ALA. This will help keep my insulin and/or leptin levels spiked etc.

What do you all think of this?

:help::help:

MonStar1023
02-18-2002, 08:48 PM
I remember Lyle McDonald talking about how you should wake up in the middle of the night to eat another carb-up meal.

:eek::eek:

I guess that all helps with glycogen replenishment etc.

big calvin
02-18-2002, 09:20 PM
are u on the bodybuilding NHE diet? or the fatloss? also how many carbs is your carb load meals?

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 04:38 AM
big calvin-
Rob says not to really count the calories or the grams of carbs in your meals. I counted one time and it was around 300-350g I think. Something along those lines. So its a really good amount.

:cool::cool:

I have lost around 30 lbs. and something like 4.5 inches off my waist so far following NHE for around 2 months.

Jane
02-19-2002, 04:44 AM
That's awesome monstar! :) How's your strength and lbm coming along?

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 04:46 AM
Jane-
Really really good actually. I have gotten stronger in every exercise. Some exercises a lot stronger than others but you know how it is..

:cool::cool:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 08:19 AM
.

Par Deus
02-19-2002, 09:50 AM
Monstar,

Something longer acting would be better -- a giant bowl of pasta with lean ground beef -- something like that (if you could have some fiber with it, that would be even better).

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 12:03 PM
Par Deus-
I am assuming that you are talking about my 2nd carb-up meal right bro? What are you suggesting something like some oatmeal with some fiber? Rather than cereal + skim milk? Thats good bro so the slow-burning carbs would burn all throughout the night right?

:help::help:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 12:08 PM
Help me out Par Deus...

What do you think of my first carb-up meal? Just a huge bowl of pasta, 32 oz. Gatorade, and 2 scoops ice-cream.

:p:p

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 12:08 PM
By the way Par Deus my first carb-up meal is around 7-7:30 PM and my second will be around 10:00 PM.

:cool::cool:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 01:29 PM
.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 01:47 PM
.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 03:34 PM
.

the doc
02-19-2002, 03:45 PM
monstar, your meals look fine

if you want add a second smaller meal as recommended by par
go for it if your not already bloated beyond belief...lol

Marcel
02-19-2002, 03:56 PM
Maybe you could split the meals up into half and half? Might feel better.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 04:05 PM
I was going to try splitting up the meals... but I decided that I need one meal where I just pile in the carbs. More and more and more and more until I am going to explode. But I want the benefits of two carb-meals.. like elevated insulin and leptin levels, more glycogen storage, etc.

Maybe a cup of oatmeal, some brown sugar :p:p, and some skim milk with maybe 300 mg. ALA before bed would do the trick. Theres something like 5g of fiber in eat 1/2 cup serving of oatmeal I think.

Do you guys think that I would be better off splitting up my carb-up meal? Because honestly it might be best to take in maybe a moderate sized bowl of pasta + sauce, 16 oz. Gatorade, and a scoop of ice-cream immediately after my workout (around 4-5 PM), with whey protein. Along with 1/2 of my carb-up supplements. And then 2-3 hours later, maybe around 7-8 PM, take in the rest of my carb-up supplements and eat the same meal.

:cool::cool:

... Would taking some supplemental fiber be a good idea?

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 04:11 PM
Okay this is really actually quite confusing. I am going to try and explain it as clearly as possible. Fortunately the doc and Marcel you guys both are familiar with NHE. So you know that I have received great results with it so I want to keep the basic idea.. Anyway I am thinking about maybe taking in liquid carbs postworkout, on my carb-up meal days. Maybe something like 75-100g of carbs from Gatorade, or Sweettarts (which are dextrose / maltodextrin). Then around 2-3 hours later have my normal carb-up meal.

Rob recommends, however, to have flax seed oil and whey protein postworkout. So maybe combo of whey protein (without the flax or peanut butter), and 75-100g simple sugars. Then 2-3 hours later my pasta, ice-cream, and maybe drop the Gatorade since I will be taking in a bunch of simple sugars postworkout.

:cool::cool:

I just want to keep the basic NHE plan, while still eating my pasta and ice-cream! Damn I need that food twice a week to keep my sanity.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 04:17 PM
I am also contemplating the ice-cream I always eat. I know the LOW-FAT carbs are your best bet for glycogen replishment etc. when it comes to carb-ups. Well my Ben & Jerry's is full-fat. Containing around 17-20g of fat per 1/2 cup. And God knows that I am eating something like 1-1/2 cups of that sh*t. I am thinking about switching over to low-fat Ben & Jerry's.

:cool::cool:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 04:17 PM
The bottom line is that I want to stick to the basic NHE eating plan, because it has really worked for me, but I want to make the most of it. Like make alterations that will cause the program to be even more effective.

:cool::cool:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 04:23 PM
I am even thinking that a small carb-up meal after every single training session wouldnt be a bad idea. Okay lets put it this way... one carb-up meal is say...

2000 calories
70g protein
350g carbs
70g fat

... Or something along those lines, then twice a week that comes out to 4000 calories, 140g protein, 700g carbs, and 140g fat, twice a week. Which is a lot so to speak. So if I divided those numbers by three, I would come up with something like 1300 calories, 50g protein, 235g carbs, and like 40-50g fat, THREE times a week rather than 2.

What do you guys think of this philosophy? Because I know that you all know how important carbs are postworkout especially. And I am thinking that dropping out a lot of the fat would be an even better idea. For example look at the following for example.

M- medium-sized carb-up meal, 2-3 hours postworkout
W- medium-sized carb-up meal, 2-3 hours postworkout
F- medium-sized carb-up meal, 2-3 hours postworkout

Rather than what I am doing now..

M- huge carb-up meal, 2-3 hours postworkout
W- no carb-up meal
F- huge carb-up meal, 2-3 hours postworkout

:cool::cool:

This is just food for though I havnt decided if I want to do this or not. I am just thinking NHE would be even more effective with a carb-up meal the night after each workout, lower in fat, etc.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 04:25 PM
A medium sized carb-up meal might be something like a medium-sized bowl of pasta & sauce, 1-2 scoops of LOW-FAT ice-cream, and maybe 20 oz. of Gatorade. Nothing major or elaborate. I think that the low-fat ice-cream will make a difference a) because its lower in calories and b) because its like 15g less fat.

:thumbup::thumbup:

big calvin
02-19-2002, 04:54 PM
ok keep everything as u where, u are getting to good results as is. now if your looking to gain some more muslce(im guessing because u lose a good amount of fat already) then yes i would add a second carb meal. oats for sure. i would say have pasta for meal 1 and oats for meal 2. no high fat dawg!! come one now! also i dont think adding carbs post workout is good because thats not how the diet works. unless u want to give up the carb load meals and just have post workout meals then its ok. this is my own opinion.

aeckhardt
02-19-2002, 05:05 PM
I would say to first drop the ice cream. I mean its not like your just having a little fat there. You said yourself, the fat is like 70 grams or so. Damn that's a lot. I think you would find better reults if you just ate pasta. Meaning, less fat, and fuller muscles. With the number of carb loads you just need to consider what your goals are. If you still want to burn fat, 2 carb meals will be better, because your body will have more time to burn fat even though you would be eating the same amount of carbs.

Plus, like Clavin said, this **** is working for you so don't change anything other than the ice cream. If your fat burning stalls just start to count calories during the carb up.

I mean you talk about wanting to make the carb up more effective but yet you claim that you can't get rid of the ice cream. If you really feel the need for ice cream then get some fat free frozen yogurt.

I do think you should have a second carb meal before bed and make it something like oatmeal. Although I don't know how you would fit that in considering how large the meal before it was.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 05:13 PM
Okay... now I am thinking about just switching over to THREE medium-sized carb-up meals rather than the TWO huge-ones per week. I am thinking that this would be more efficient at helping my body recover, build muscle, etc. If I switch over to 3 carb-up meals per wee, rather than 2 huge ones, I dont think I am going to eat two carb-up meals in the same night. I mean would that be a bad idea? A moderate bowl of pasta, 20 oz. Gatorade, and a scoop or 2 of low-fat ice-cream. I think Ill be fine with that 3x per week. I will not be binging like the way I am now twice a week. I mean really glutting myself twice a week. I am thinking that this would be my best bet. Dont you guys think so? 3 spikes of insulin rather than 2, less fat with each carb-up meal, etc.

:cool::cool:

big calvin
02-19-2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by aeckhardt
Although I don't know how you would fit that in considering how large the meal before it was.

dawg thats what i was thinkin! 300-350g!! i think im not to sure but i think rob says if its over 200g its best to have a second carb meal and lower the first to under 200...ill have to check on that to be 100% sure.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 05:16 PM
By the way I am not going to go with the carbs postworkout. I am probably going to go with the three controlled carb-up meals three times per week though. I dont think that this will halt my fat-loss goals at all. I could be wrong though. I guess we'll have to see for ourselves. I know that a carb-up meal every other day is a lot compared to the way it was before, every 3rd and 4th day. But I mean I was losing fat a good rate with a HUGE binge meal where I couldnt stomach anymore pasta if my life depended on it. And it was high-fat too! 70+ grams of fat each carb-up meal. And I was still losing fat! So dropping that fat down to around 10-15g I think Ill be totally fine.

:cool::cool:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 05:18 PM
Really? Wow I must have skipped over that. My carb-up meals are literally just piling carbs in like crazy! So much pasta its unbelievable. Wow just more and more and more and more. I feel a little fat the next day. But then again I lost 30 lbs. and lost around 5 inches off my waist doing it this way!!

:eek::eek:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 05:22 PM
300-350 by the way was just a rough estimate of how many carbs I am taking in. It could be more or less I am really not sure. I guess that is a lot more than I realize.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

... I probably going to track everything down tomorrow night. I am probably going to shoot for something like 1000 calories, 50g protein, 200g carbs, and 20g fat. Or something like that maybe even more carbs. Well have to see I guess. Kinda tough to measure my ice-cream its always a pain in the a*s.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 05:31 PM
Another thing that I am kind of confused about is whether or not I should split up my carb-up meal, if I am carbing up 3 times per week. Like have a small meal of pasta, ice-cream, and Gatorade, and then have another one a few hours later of oatmeal maybe?

For example something like this..

Meal 1
4 oz. of pasta or so
6-8 oz. Ragu sauce
16-20 oz. Gatorade
1-2 scoops low-fat ice-cream

Approximately: 30g protein, 200g carbs, 20g fat

... 1/2 my carb-up supplements here, and the other half with the 2nd meal.

Meal 2
1 cup oatmeal
1-2 tbsp. brown sugar
1/2 cup skim milk

Approximately: 20g protein, 70g carbs, 10g fat

:cool::cool:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 05:36 PM
.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 05:46 PM
.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 05:56 PM
.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 06:08 PM
bump~

For aeckhardt, big calvin, the doc, Wizard, Severed Ties, etc.

:cool::cool:

the doc
02-19-2002, 06:08 PM
i think you should stick with what rob recommends
carb up twice weekly. I am doing one massive load on sunday-over the latter half of the day-several meals . and another more modest one during the week.

See it for what it is- glycogen replacement, muscle repair, increase metabolism, etc and fat storage. So go all out within reason. Have some postworkout malto/dextrose/whey/creatine insulin spike, just not every workout. You could on off days have some carbs after workout- you could have 40 g over two smaller meals.

The rest of the meals on off days should be meat and green veggies-good clean stuff

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 06:12 PM
the doc-
Really bro? Wow I didnt expect this type of response from you... so you think that carbing up 3x per week after every workout rather than two, and dividing my carb-up meal into 2 meals is a bad idea then? I figured that would drive my results through the roof..

:cool::cool:

... Because a) I am lowering my fat-intake b) I would have elevated insulin over the course of 2-4 hours rather than just from the one meal and c) because I would be carbing up after every workout.

the doc
02-19-2002, 06:18 PM
monstar if you were bulking then i would say go for it

your goal is fat loss right? That means you need to stimulate glucagen-which means you must eat protein/fat and not carbs

Tryska
02-19-2002, 06:19 PM
are you actually hungry for another meal prior to bed time, or are you just trying to follow the rules?

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 06:24 PM
the doc-
Whatsup bro? Yeah that I completely understand. Maybe youre right. Actually I think I completely agree the more that I sit here and think about it... I forgot how badly Rob stresses to keep glucagon and hGH elevated while keeping insulin etc. to a minimum. I was just thinking that would be the best way to go. Oh well.

Tryska-
I am not really hungry prior to bed I just heard that splitting up your carb-up meal can present even better benefits and results ya know? Rob discusses 1/2 and 1/2 carb-meals in his book.

Does this still look okay though for TWICE a week..
Meal 1
4-6 oz. of pasta or so
6-8 oz. Ragu sauce
16-20 oz. Gatorade
1-2 scoops low-fat ice-cream

Approximately: 30g protein, 200g carbs, 20g fat

Meal 2
1 cup oatmeal
1-2 tbsp. brown sugar
1/2 cup skim milk

Approximately: 20g protein, 80g carbs, 10g fat

... 1/2 my carb-up supplements 30 minutes before first meal, and the other half before the 2nd meal. By the way my first carb-up meal will be around 6:30 PM while my second will be around 9:30 PM.. that okay?

:cool::cool:

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 06:28 PM
Actually since there is such a huge difference in the amount of carbs in the first meal compared to the 2nd meal, should I take the majority of my carb-up supplements with the first meal?

:help::help:

the doc
02-19-2002, 06:30 PM
that looks fine- remember you want to use what is given you results which seems to be what you have been doing

however, remember this for when you get to when you want to bulk
You can use your approach for some lbm gain

the doc
02-19-2002, 06:31 PM
take them when it is most convenient.

Tryska
02-19-2002, 06:32 PM
just eat the carbs then and stop overthinking it. i believe rob said split it up so that you don't get totally uncomfortable and bloated feeling. (i could be wrong).

if you're not hungry pre-bedtime don't eat. If you feel you need a break from all the food, then split it up and eat later.

you could also eat a little bit after you workout and have the real meal later on in the evening.

take your supps with whateve rthe largest meal is gonna be.

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 06:33 PM
the doc-
Yeah I know bro. Again thanks for helping me out. Also how should my carb-up supplements go? I take a bunch of glucose disposal agents etc. Should I just take 1/2 before first meal and 1/2 before second meal or what?

:help::help:

Or should I take all of them before the first meal and just add some ALA before the second?

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 07:02 PM
bump

MonStar1023
02-19-2002, 07:54 PM
6:00 PM
Taking all of my carb-up meal supplements.

6:30 PM: Meal 1
6 oz. of pasta or so
8 oz. Ragu sauce
20 oz. Gatorade
2 scoops low-fat ice-cream

Approximately: 30g protein, 225g carbs, 20g fat

9:30 PM
Take 300 mg. ALA.

10:00 PM: Meal 2
1 cup oatmeal
1-2 tbsp. brown sugar
1/2 cup skim milk

Approximately: 20g protein, 80g carbs, 10g fat

the doc
02-19-2002, 08:42 PM
looks fine

Marcel
02-19-2002, 09:15 PM
Dang Monstar! I'm proud of ya now bro for just taking all that time to examine your diet like a mofo!

I think you should do that last plan you have there...the 2 meals with low-fat. That looks pretty controlled to me. Also if I may make a suggestion...there is a frozen yogur that has no fat at all. It's pretty good especially the vanilla/chocolate mix.

Last carb up I ate the whole f*cken thing! The next day oh shiat I had school and had to go to the bathroom more times then I would like! Pretty funny shiat now that I think back on it! Ewwww whats that smell in the bathroom!?!?!? hehehehehehehehe!

aeckhardt
02-19-2002, 10:01 PM
Haha. Nice Marcel.Nice.

MS- Um, I don't really know what to respond to. I mean whatever you do, it can only get better because it is already working for you even with so many cals all at once. So stick with the two carb loads, lowered fat during the carb loads, and split it up into two meals like you have. I might even break it up more. Like have a meal at 8 also.

Marcel
02-19-2002, 10:02 PM
I thought some of you would like...LOL

Par Deus
02-19-2002, 11:56 PM
Monstar, you would want you first meal to be mostly simple carbs and very little fat. The second one should be more complex and some fat is okay as well, as this will provide a steady supply of glucose while you sleep.

MonStar1023
02-20-2002, 04:39 AM
Thanks a lot guys for all of your replies! I really appreciate it. I am going to do the last post I had. That one seems like it would work the best for me. Yeah Ill check out what kind of ice-cream I want. Ill look into some frozen yogurt. Hopefully it will satisfy my huge sugar craving twice a week!

Marcel-
LOL bro. Thanks for the reply. Yeah I remember reading about that when you wrote about eating the whole tub of yogurt.. nice.

aeckhardt-
Yeah I think that this little modification will help me get even better results.. if thats possible.

Par Deus-
Thanks a lot bro. I raelly appreciate you reading it.

:cool::cool:

Thannks for the help guys!

Paul Stagg
02-20-2002, 07:35 AM
Listen to Par.

I think you may be over thinking this a bit.

MonStar1023
02-20-2002, 08:03 AM
Paul Stagg-
Okay thanks bro. Yeah thats all I am doing bro. First meal higher-glycemic index carbs, and then the second meal lower-glycemic. Ill be taking my supps with first meal just because of the size of that meal.

:cool::cool:

mdirrane12
02-20-2002, 10:10 AM
I see a lot of NHE rules being violated in these posts. The post-workout meal should never be a carb-load because (1) it shifts your metabolism toward sugar-burning, (2) it suppresses GH, (3) hypoglycemia induces the release of counterregulatory catabolic hormones which offsets the anabolic benefits of the insulin spike. This is where I see a problem with NHE. Because the author of NHE contradicts himself by mentioning reason number 3 in the "Ask Rob" help section while in his book he says that the insulin surge is one of the anabolic benefits of the carb-load.

You should refrain from eating carbs within 90 minutes of going to bed for the nocturnal GH surge. You should not disturb sleep during the first half of the night for the nocturnal GH surge. Bodybuilders are supposed to maximize starchy over sugary carbs in the carb-load which means you'd be best off eliminating them.

Severed Ties
02-20-2002, 10:50 AM
You are way overthinking this Bro, I have people choose carbs based what they enjoy to eat, then I just set a portion limit and of course no processed crap for carbs.

Par's advice is fine, personally sometimes I use oats as they are a better carb choice but I mainly use pasta in for my second to last meal, and always frozen yogert for my last.

ST

Marcel
02-20-2002, 12:47 PM
Quick question for ST...do you carb load? Or do you spread out your carbs throughout the day? If so at any specific times you eat them(like for example breakfast and post-workout)?

Severed Ties
02-20-2002, 05:01 PM
I eat carbs everyday so I don't carb load, but I do consume about 50g od dextrose postworkout.

ST

reso
02-20-2002, 05:08 PM
Monstar dang man how much fat you got to lose? you are really into this diet, I RESPECT YOU,good luck!!!!!!!

MonStar1023
02-20-2002, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the replies guys I really really appreciate it. I mean you guys have really helped me out.

mdirrane12-
Hehe welcome about WBB bro. Glad to see another member familiar with NHE. I know that I am breaking the carbs before bed rule that supposedly inhibits hGH release while youre sleeping. I already thought about that. I personally think that glycogen replenishment and insulin and leptin secretion is more beneficial than the hGH release in my sleep. I could be wrong and we will see based on the next few months.

:cool::cool:

reso-
I dont have that much left. Maybe 10 lbs. I would say around 15 lbs. at the very most. Well see though. Want to be shredded for Spring / Summer time.

MonStar1023
02-20-2002, 07:00 PM
Damn I may not be consuming ENOUGH carbs in my carb-up. After reading a few things over at www.extique.com in the Ask Rob column. Jeez. He goes on about how "the more carbs the better" etc. I am thinking about maybe raising my first carb-up meal to around 300g of carbs, and my second to around 200g.

:eek::eek:

I dont know what to do! After reading a few times about how Rob talks about how important a TON of carbs are.

Severed Ties
02-20-2002, 08:42 PM
Monstar don't worry about your GH response during sleep, carbs only delay the spike, not blunt it.

ST

MonStar1023
02-21-2002, 09:19 AM
Okay bro thanks. Thats what I was trying to figure out.

:cool::cool: