PDA

View Full Version : How come the U.S. sucks at oly lifting?



Hazerboy
03-12-2007, 01:36 PM
Looking over at the 2004 Olympic records, we only had TWO mens placers in the four weight classes, and one woman who placed 10th. How is that Eastern Europe dominates?

Uncle Fester
03-12-2007, 01:46 PM
Because all the athletes that would be good in the Olympics are professional athletes, making lots of money.

ShockBoxer
03-12-2007, 01:59 PM
:withstupi

If you're a genetically gifted individual, what do you aspire for? A gold medal in weight lifting, or a place in the NHL or NFL?

American football isn't very popular in Europe, and ultimately neither is hockey. So why wouldn't the big boys end up either a) coming to America or b) hit the classic big boy events?

Nik00117
03-12-2007, 02:01 PM
Yup, that pretty much covers it.

Most strong poeple that would be worldclass lifters end up playing sports.

Big o Boy
03-12-2007, 02:32 PM
I don't really think that's a great analogy of our unsuccessful olympic showings. The guys in pro athletics are gifted, sure... but that's kinda like saying all great would-be powerlifters are wrestlers/NFL stars, or all of the great would-be bodybuilders are fashion models and "Chip and Dale" dancers.

We haven't had successful Olympic lifters for quite some time. It is either due to lack of interest in the sport, subpar coaching/training, or something else entirely that I am forgetting or don't know.

Guido
03-12-2007, 02:40 PM
Big o Boy is right on. There has just been a general lack of interest in the sport here in the US. Powerlifting has eclipsed oly lifting in popularity, as well, so many of the people who lift weights for strength and not team sports gravitate towards powerlifting or strongman, reducing the pool of potential oly lifting talent, as well. Blame it on lack of coaches, politics, or other things, but it's not going to change for the foreseeable future.

Chubrock
03-12-2007, 03:09 PM
Blame it on lack of coaches, politics, or other things, but it's not going to change for the foreseeable future.



Interesting enough, I was looking around Marunde-Muscle awhile back and they had some clips to a younger, LW American who had won some large Oly meet. He had some unusual form but put up some big numbers. The general consensus that I've seen on other boards is that Oly lifting is beginning to gain in popularity. Whether or not it will help put us over the edge is still yet to be seen, but I do believe that it is starting to make a larger splash.

Sensei
03-12-2007, 04:11 PM
Interesting enough, I was looking around Marunde-Muscle awhile back and they had some clips to a younger, LW American who had won some large Oly meet. He had some unusual form but put up some big numbers. The general consensus that I've seen on other boards is that Oly lifting is beginning to gain in popularity. Whether or not it will help put us over the edge is still yet to be seen, but I do believe that it is starting to make a larger splash.
No $$ = no real interest except at the grassroots levels. It's possible, but I just don't see a return of American dominance in OL anytime soon...

BigCorey75
03-12-2007, 04:14 PM
so true what everyone is saying.


also bodybuilding has killed american weight lifitng, we lift now more for asthetic purposes than athletic ones.


again it all comes back down to money

JHarris
03-12-2007, 05:27 PM
The problem with suggesting that all our strength athletes or would be oly lifters are going to football or the NHL is that only the super heavyweight (105kg+ which is 230lb+) or the heavyweight (105kg and under) classes would be impacted. The lighter weight classes and especially the female classes in the united states would not be hurt by this.

I think that the United States has better drug testing procedures than other countries, so we may end up being a bit cleaner. Notice that recently 9 of 11 international level Iranian athletes tested positive for steroids. (A coincidence that Rezazadeh, who might turn into the strongest lifter ever, was clean? Im doubtful..). This could be why some of our athletes who go to the olympics are not as competitive though I think it more relates to something else.

The argument that it is just not popular here holds a lot of weight. In Iran, tens of thousands of people turn out to see someone like Rezazadeh lift. The last few weightlifting meets I've been to, people are lucky if their own families show. Since there is a lack of popularity, there is a lack of money and a lack of good coaching/facilities. Most people who teach kids how to lift weights in this country have no idea of the proper way to do a bench press or a squat, let alone a complicated lift like the snatch. In China, for instance, kids are picked out at VERY early ages for things like limb length and certain strength abilities and are then trained all their lives to be lifters. We don't do this for anything in the United States. (And with good reason.. seems a little unfair to a kid to force him into something before he can do algebra. Then again, Chinese kids learn algebra earlier, but I digress...)

Olympic weightlifting is very hard and it hurts. Your wrists get sore, your knees get sore, you train 6 days a week. On top of that, the lifts are HIGHLY technical. Doing a bench press or a squat is just easier to learn and do. Plus, you can throw shirts or suits on people and they automatically lift more. With Oly lifting, you can spend a month before you can even use the empty bar. I think this, coupled with what I said above, really hurts the sport in this country.

Jay

Clifford Gillmore
03-12-2007, 08:07 PM
Louie Simmons had a pretty in depth answer to that question on the Westside seminar, I'll try and rip and upload it.

vrizzle
03-12-2007, 09:32 PM
We don't blood dope, or have our government behind us researching ways to use performance enhancing substances on its athletes.

Cough*China's entire Olympic team*Cough

Clifford Gillmore
03-12-2007, 09:40 PM
We don't blood dope

Yes they do.

vrizzle
03-12-2007, 10:10 PM
Yes they do.

ummm, no they don't. Not our lifters.

Clifford Gillmore
03-12-2007, 10:21 PM
ummm, no they don't. Not our lifters.

Ummm, yes they do. Everyone dopes, its just who is the best at masking it. Fact of life.

JHarris
03-12-2007, 11:11 PM
Uhh.. actually, most of the US weightlifters dont cheat. Please dont make claims like this without some sort of evidence. I'd even take some of the anecdotal variety. Do you know a bunch of competitive olympic lifters in the US? If so, do the majority of them take drugs?

This sort of comment is an insult to athletes that put in a lot of hard work and don't actually break any rules. It is like the 150lb kid at the gym who looks at the 200lb guy and mutters 'steroids' to everyone around to make himself feel better.

As someone who gets regularly tested for substances, I can tell you that drug-testing in this country is strict. I can also tell you that of all the olympic lifters I know, and I know quite a few competitve ones, I would sincerely doubt any of them use anything. First off, drugs are expensive. Olympic lifters dont have money in this country. There is no funding for it! Simple economics. Second off, we do not have a huge program at the OTC for olympic lifting. So if your argument is that the government supplies it, you are wrong again. You have to be VERY good to get to the OTC in the first place (like top 3 in the nation in your weight class), and you had to get there without someone else buying you drugs. Do you even know what the structure of Olympic lifting is like in this country?

Seriously though. Dont make these sorts of accusations without something to back it. Its flat out rude.

Nik00117
03-13-2007, 12:21 AM
I think certain countries (China Iran) use questionable methods to get that weight up.

I'm sure knowing how the China government works they find poeple and go "Your lifting and listening to us" They take them and train them, dop ethem etc toss them ont he ideal perfect diet and raise them to be a oly lifter.

In america we don't do that.

Big o Boy
03-13-2007, 04:08 AM
Louie Simmons had a pretty in depth answer to that question on the Westside seminar, I'll try and rip and upload it.

haha... it was pretty funny how he put it also... I watched that part a few times because I was just like "hell yea, fire all the coaches!" lol

phreak
03-13-2007, 05:11 AM
Uhh.. actually, most of the US weightlifters dont cheat. Just like Risk cannot prove that they are using, you cannot disprove it.


Please dont make claims like this without some sort of evidence. I'd even take some of the anecdotal variety. Do you know a bunch of competitive olympic lifters in the US? If so, do the majority of them take drugs?I know a few (former) world-class IPF PLers who used heavily. They get tested by WADA too. Apparently the system is far from flawless.


As someone who gets regularly tested for substances, I can tell you that drug-testing in this country is strict.Drug testing is strict in almost all Western countries. Doesn't stop people using, though.


First off, drugs are expensive. Olympic lifters dont have money in this country. There is no funding for it! Simple economics. Simply by reading this argument I truely believe you are steroid free. :) If you weren't you would know steroids are cheap. Anyone in the Western world with a normal blue-collar job can afford them. There are thousands of gyms filled with steroid-using gym rats. Are they all government sponsored, or do they all have great jobs? Obviously not. Depending on your connections, a year's supply of steroids will set you back as little as $5-600 (home brew, buying from China in bulk).

Anthony
03-13-2007, 07:09 AM
RIGHT NOW there are more people in the USA performing the Olympic lifts than at any other time in HISTORY. They obviously aren't all competitive athletes, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

Bonus points - who is responsible for the recent surge in Olympic lifting? ;)

Chubrock
03-13-2007, 07:30 AM
Bonus points - who is responsible for the recent surge in Olympic lifting? ;)

Jodi. Haha nah, probably your boys at CF.

JHarris
03-13-2007, 07:49 AM
Just like Risk cannot prove that they are using, you cannot disprove it.

You are right, I cannot prove it. However, Im not accusing them of anything. When you accuse someone of wrong-doing, you usually need to show proof. When you accuse someone of acting correctly, proof is not as necessary.


I know a few (former) world-class IPF PLers who used heavily. They get tested by WADA too. Apparently the system is far from flawless.

Drug testing is strict in almost all Western countries. Doesn't stop people using, though.

I have no reason to believe that PLers use more frequently than WLers, nor do I know much about the athletes there. You have a very good point here. :)


Anyone in the Western world with a normal blue-collar job can afford them. There are thousands of gyms filled with steroid-using gym rats. Are they all government sponsored, or do they all have great jobs? Obviously not. Depending on your connections, a year's supply of steroids will set you back as little as $5-600 (home brew, buying from China in bulk).

Another good point here, but let me justify my statement a bit more. Designer steroids are expensive. While the drug-testing system is not perfect, it does tend to pick up the more obvious things. I may be incorrect on this, but I was under the impression that the cost of a designer steroid was very high in part due to the fact that it was engineered to not get picked up by testing. My guess is that something cooked up in someone's basement and sells for $5 does not hold such promise.

phreak
03-13-2007, 09:36 AM
Another good point here, but let me justify my statement a bit more. Designer steroids are expensive. While the drug-testing system is not perfect, it does tend to pick up the more obvious things. I may be incorrect on this, but I was under the impression that the cost of a designer steroid was very high in part due to the fact that it was engineered to not get picked up by testing. My guess is that something cooked up in someone's basement and sells for $5 does not hold such promise.

Good point. To be honest: I do not know the price of designer steroids. But it sounds likely they will be much more expensive. Basic supply and demand. The thing is: WADA can only test you when you have signed your membership to a fed. If, for some reason, you are no longer a member of that fed, you cannot be tested. So use whatever steroids you want, then clean out your system, re-enroll, and you are good to go -- with some growth hormone to more easily hold on to the mass you acquired earlier. And that's just one strategy that's used. (or rather: was used at least until a few years ago)

ericg
03-13-2007, 09:46 AM
Jodi. Haha nah, probably your boys at CF.

x2 :thumbup:

gymnast
03-13-2007, 11:58 AM
I think certain countries (China Iran) use questionable methods to get that weight up.

I'm sure knowing how the China government works they find poeple and go "Your lifting and listening to us" They take them and train them, dop ethem etc toss them ont he ideal perfect diet and raise them to be a oly lifter.

In america we don't do that.


We don't blood dope, or have our government behind us researching ways to use performance enhancing substances on its athletes.

Cough*China's entire Olympic team*Cough

I don't want to sound like a jerk but there some ignorance surrounding this topic. If you're accusing the Chinese government of purposely being involved in a mass conspiracy to gear their athletes then you're just wrong. Its sort of counter-productive to give your athletes gear only to turn around and crackdown on the very same drug users that you created.

In China, coaches are given cash incentives if their students/disciples make it to the top. It serves as a motivation but it also backfires because human nature is greedy - so coaches who like money, fame, glory etc. will be tempted to administer drugs to their athletes.

If you want to know why Chinese athletes do so well, then watch this short documentary on how they live and train:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrhsAi2MlCU

Oh yeah and vrizzle, you might want to check out this link before you decide to play hypocrite ;) :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/3757673.stm

Nik00117
03-13-2007, 01:01 PM
THat doc basically said i'm saying.

THose kids get trained, unlike here in the states and to say the lifters don't dope is crazy, somewhere they fit it in.

CrazyK
03-13-2007, 01:54 PM
They broadcasted Reza's wedding on national TV in Iran for his accomplishments in the sport. How many people in the USA even know our heavy weight champion's name?

Sleepy Guy
03-13-2007, 01:56 PM
Because Canada is where it's at.
:indian:

McIrish
03-13-2007, 02:26 PM
I think certain countries (China Iran) use questionable methods to get that weight up.

I'm sure knowing how the China government works they find poeple and go "Your lifting and listening to us" They take them and train them, dop ethem etc toss them ont he ideal perfect diet and raise them to be a oly lifter.

In america we don't do that.

Nik, you have some really really extreme ideas about China. First, there is no "Your [sic] lifting and listening to us". It is my understanding (after having asked this very question in China numerous times) that talented youngsters are selected at VERY early ages (think 2-5) based on estimates of growth potential and lineage (hrmmm, Yao Ming's parents both played on the national team...). I'm not saying it's a pedigree thing, but if your mom is 6'4 and your father is 6'10 they expect a tall kid. They got a winner. For the record, I don't actually know how tall Yao Ming's parents are, but IIRC, those #'s are close.

Furthermore, these kids are trained constantly and weeded out, and if they get a huge crop and one is a successful national lifter, that's great. It's also my understanding that TONS of countries employ similar feeder programs - I read a report that runners in Africa are selected in roughly the same way.

Finally, allow me to address the bolded part. Yeah, actually, in America we do employ a similar system. For example, kids training for the US skiing and winter sports teams attend a ski academy. Do you think they get their hands held through all those years and get a ribbon if they don't make it to the Olympics? Nope, they get kicked out for younger, more competitive kids. It's kinda like a meat grinder in that sense.

vrizzle
03-13-2007, 06:00 PM
Ummm, yes they do. Everyone dopes, its just who is the best at masking it. Fact of life.

You sir, are ignorant.

vrizzle
03-13-2007, 06:18 PM
I don't want to sound like a jerk but there some ignorance surrounding this topic. If you're accusing the Chinese government of purposely being involved in a mass conspiracy to gear their athletes then you're just wrong. Its sort of counter-productive to give your athletes gear only to turn around and crackdown on the very same drug users that you created.

In China, coaches are given cash incentives if their students/disciples make it to the top. It serves as a motivation but it also backfires because human nature is greedy - so coaches who like money, fame, glory etc. will be tempted to administer drugs to their athletes.

If you want to know why Chinese athletes do so well, then watch this short documentary on how they live and train:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrhsAi2MlCU

Oh yeah and vrizzle, you might want to check out this link before you decide to play hypocrite ;) :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/3757673.stm

Nice argument (sarcasm).

1. Stay on topic. We're discussing the state of US Olympic weightlifting athletes so that link was irrelevant.

2 Gear has nothing to do with training hard. So you're telling me bodybuilders who use gear take it easy and have perfunctory workouts?

3. All you guys have no idea how the testing system is run for US WL athletes so you can't really say too much in argument against the WL's. I myself have been tested, it was kind of disturbing, but kind of cool to see how it was done.

4. China Cheats

5. Probably shouldn't have posted #4, I feel the flaming descending upon me.

TeamstockyScott
03-13-2007, 06:24 PM
Looking over at the 2004 Olympic records, we only had TWO mens placers in the four weight classes, and one woman who placed 10th. How is that Eastern Europe dominates?

Team Stocky is working on it. Give us time.

McIrish
03-14-2007, 10:12 AM
4. China Cheats

5. Probably shouldn't have posted #4, I feel the flaming descending upon me.

I'm not going to flame you for saying that, but what evidence do you have besides, ohhhh, I dunno, China winning more than the US? They may use dope... or they may have better coaching. Wait, wait, I just got another idea. Their population is 4x that of the United States! There's 1.3 billion people there, and the country basically grooms potential Olympic talent.

Yes, some Chinese olympic lifters have been caught doping. Not as many (notable) cases of US lifters exist - does that mean that US lifters absolutely do not dope?

I'm honestly curious - aside from a misplaced sense of injured national pride, what evidence do you have?

Guido
03-14-2007, 10:57 AM
I'm not saying China does or does not cheat, but why has China only recently become dominant in many Olympic sports? They were nothing special until about 20 years ago and all of a sudden in the 1988 olympics started climbing up the medal counts. What is the reason for that? Cheating? New training systems? More money put towards their athletes?

CrazyK
03-14-2007, 11:23 AM
I'm not saying China does or does not cheat, but why has China only recently become dominant in many Olympic sports? They were nothing special until about 20 years ago and all of a sudden in the 1988 olympics started climbing up the medal counts. What is the reason for that? Cheating? New training systems? More money put towards their athletes?Combination of all of the above. Everyone country uses steroids though, every one of them.

Big o Boy
03-14-2007, 12:21 PM
due to popular mis-belief, Super Shredder took steroids.

That dude would dominate some oly lifting... Who's with me on that? :cool:

Guido
03-14-2007, 01:07 PM
due to popular mis-belief, Super Shredder took steroids.Who???

IZich
03-14-2007, 01:58 PM
He's the bad guy from the Ninja Turtles.

In any case, I find it very hard to believe that America is "clean" from doping when athletes are caught in nearly every other American professional organization doing this. Pretty much everybody dopes. Since when has this been disputed?

I side with the "There's not enough national interest in the sport; hence, our coaching staff/talent pool is small" stance.

Sidior
03-14-2007, 02:05 PM
due to popular mis-belief, Super Shredder took steroids.

That dude would dominate some oly lifting... Who's with me on that? :cool:

No **** he would dominate, but he was on everything under the sun and he still got his ass kicked by a rat. The eveil steroids a fighter do not make.

edit: like 3 times because I cant spell

gymnast
03-14-2007, 05:28 PM
Nice argument (sarcasm).

1. Stay on topic. We're discussing the state of US Olympic weightlifting athletes so that link was irrelevant.

right... so the US turns out to be one of the largest if not largest users of gear but US Olympics Weightlifting remains miraculously 'untainted' based on nothing more but your insistence. Nice argument - prepare to be schooled by logic.

You already lost the argument from the beginning when you said "We don't blood dope..." (assuming the we refers to us Americans and made in reference to American Oly lifters) This is a very illogical statement.

In order for you to know that no American Oly lifters 'blood dope', you are basically claiming to be omniscient because in order to make the claim that you know that no American Oly lifters 'blood dope' you must know of every situation and evidence from the past and present. Since you cannot possibly know if in fact someone is using or has used steroids in every situation from the past and present you cannot say "We don't blood dope..."


2 Gear has nothing to do with training hard. So you're telling me bodybuilders who use gear take it easy and have perfunctory workouts?

Red Herring. Where did I say anything like this? Kind of ironic since you accused me of going off topic.


3. All you guys have no idea how the testing system is run for US WL athletes so you can't really say too much in argument against the WL's. I myself have been tested, it was kind of disturbing, but kind of cool to see how it was done.

There is a very subtle ad hominem style argument in this paragraph. You basically tried to destroy the credibility of the members in the forum by saying "All you guys have no idea how the testing system is run...." You have to do it to elevate yourself into some position to win the argument through another logical fallacy, "appealing to authority"

But the people on this forum aren't stupid and many of them are very knowledgeable about this matter. Just because you insist you are right and try to down play others, does not make your argument true.

In fact, I had drug tests before and its no big deal. If you're interested, T-nation released an article about a year ago about steroid testing and what people do to pass them.


4. China Cheats

And so does the world - you're in denial buddy.

vrizzle
03-14-2007, 08:31 PM
right... so the US turns out to be one of the largest if not largest users of gear but US Olympics Weightlifting remains miraculously 'untainted' based on nothing more but your insistence. Nice argument - prepare to be schooled by logic.

You already lost the argument from the beginning when you said "We don't blood dope..." (assuming the we refers to us Americans and made in reference to American Oly lifters) This is a very illogical statement.

In order for you to know that no American Oly lifters 'blood dope', you are basically claiming to be omniscient because in order to make the claim that you know that no American Oly lifters 'blood dope' you must know of every situation and evidence from the past and present. Since you cannot possibly know if in fact someone is using or has used steroids in every situation from the past and present you cannot say "We don't blood dope..."



Red Herring. Where did I say anything like this? Kind of ironic since you accused me of going off topic.



There is a very subtle ad hominem style argument in this paragraph. You basically tried to destroy the credibility of the members in the forum by saying "All you guys have no idea how the testing system is run...." You have to do it to elevate yourself into some position to win the argument through another logical fallacy, "appealing to authority"

But the people on this forum aren't stupid and many of them are very knowledgeable about this matter. Just because you insist you are right and try to down play others, does not make your argument true.

In fact, I had drug tests before and its no big deal. If you're interested, T-nation released an article about a year ago about steroid testing and what people do to pass them.



And so does the world - you're in denial buddy.

1. Saying we don't blood dope is an accurate generalization as, Americans have no past history of doping since the 1968 olympics, except a few THC cases, which I don't think should be a banned substance. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? O yea, and don't put words in my mouth saying I said no OLY lifters have ever used, pretty lame.

2. Ummm you were off topic. What did the second link have to do with the state of US weightlifting? Nothing, and the bodybuilding thing was an analogy. All you showed me from the first link was that China works hard, do you want a cookie now?

3. I'd rather listen to a pro over an average joe.

4. You were tested by USADA?

5. China cheats, they've been caught, we (US Lifters) haven't (of recent).

6. I know the world dopes, that's not in question, US weightlifters are.

Chubrock
03-14-2007, 08:34 PM
Dude, if you think that everybody BUT the USA dopes, you're either really gullible or just don't want to see the truth.

phreak
03-15-2007, 01:57 AM
Americans have no past history of doping since the 1968 olympics
You mean: besides all the top athletes in the Balco scandal, Carl Lewis on amphetamines, etc.?

CancerVII
03-15-2007, 05:00 AM
Oooh, poor patriotic American vdrizzle.

Having grown up in Taiwanese society and Australian society, the distinct difference between the effort Taiwanese kids put into the pursit of their interests and that put in by Australian kids is very noticeable. **** that ****, I was doing more school work in my 2nd year of primary school in Taiwan then I am currently doing as a grade 12er in Australia.

It really amuses me when westerners get overshadowed by an ex-colonial power, a lot of them tend to have a bitch and claim that they cheated, they're using unethical methods, etc.

Sometimes the difference is just the amount of effort put in, eh?

CrazyK
03-15-2007, 12:50 PM
1. Saying we don't blood dope is an accurate generalization as, Americans have no past history of doping since the 1968 olympics, except a few THC cases, which I don't think should be a banned substance. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? O yea, and don't put words in my mouth saying I said no OLY lifters have ever used, pretty lame.

2. Ummm you were off topic. What did the second link have to do with the state of US weightlifting? Nothing, and the bodybuilding thing was an analogy. All you showed me from the first link was that China works hard, do you want a cookie now?

3. I'd rather listen to a pro over an average joe.

4. You were tested by USADA?

5. China cheats, they've been caught, we (US Lifters) haven't (of recent).

6. I know the world dopes, that's not in question, US weightlifters are.Wow... The USA uses drugs...EVERY country uses. It evens out the playing field. Other countries got caught because they weren't as good at masking it or they didn't discontinue use 6 months out before the contest. Steroids for the olympics generally come more in to play in the training then in the actual event.

Guido
03-15-2007, 01:30 PM
You mean: besides all the top athletes in the Balco scandal, Carl Lewis on amphetamines, etc.?And don't forget Marion Jones, Floyd Landis, most of the WWF (even if not a legit sport, but still...)

gymnast
03-15-2007, 09:05 PM
Saying we don't blood dope is an accurate generalization

Whose generalization? Your generalization? Generalizations don't prove anything.


Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty?

Another Red Herring - 'Presumption of Innocence' has nothing to do with this discussion. Ever heard of logical fallacies? You already committed a whole bunch of them.



O yea, and don't put words in my mouth saying I said no OLY lifters have ever used, pretty lame.

So when you answered the original question of the thread about why the US does so poorly in Oly lifting saying "We don't blood dope..." what you really meant is "Some of us do blood dope after all..." ?

And when Risk10k said that US oly lifters do use gear, you said, and I quote: "ummm, no they don't. Not our lifters." End quote.
What you really meant is, "yeah some of us do use it after all." ?

Nice attempt in trying to back out of your own logical quagmire - I don't blame you for trying.



2. Ummm you were off topic. What did the second link have to do with the state of US weightlifting? Nothing, and the bodybuilding thing was an analogy. All you showed me from the first link was that China works hard, do you want a cookie now?

3. I'd rather listen to a pro over an average joe.

I noticed that you have already resorted to using personal attacks. Usually when someone loses the argument they resort to Ad Hominem attacks such as these.

I also noticed that you continue to pretend that your omniscient. You don't know who I am yet you pretend to. How do you know I'm an "average joe"? Not that I have anything to prove over the internet but your comments speaks volumes on your character.


6. I know the world dopes, that's not in question, US weightlifters are.

You know what I meant by my comment.

Let me reiterate myself. You are not omniscient, therefore you cannot know if someone is using or has used gear in the past. So when you made the statement, "We don't blood dope..." you were trying to 'prove a negative', something you will find quite difficult to do. Quite simply, you lost the argument.

Let me also point out that repeating the same thing over and insisting you are right proves nothing.

All you have done thus far is dig yourself into a deeper hole.

That is all.

1mmort4l
03-16-2007, 12:08 AM
Me thinks that gymnast is some sort of psychiatrist.... :eek:

beatlesfreak
03-16-2007, 01:29 AM
I know nothing about whether Country A or Country B cheats with fashionable anabolic drugs.

I do, however, know from experience of many years living in Asia that there are plenty of other valuable incentives to train hard and do well.

One quick anecdotal example. In Korea if you win a gold medal at the Olympics--in any event--you are exempted from the mandatory military draft and you are given a government monetary stipend for life. I'd have to search again to be sure, as IIRC in 2004 it was something on the order of $3,000/month for life. If you win a silver or a bronze medal you get similar, but proportionally reduced benefits.

And of course, you become a national hero and get lots of commercial endorsements.

By comparison a US athlete who wins a weightlifting gold may be featured on a Wheaties box, but will soon be forgotten. The problem may be little more than a lack of sufficient incentives.

There are certainly plenty of reasons out there for a young Asian athlete to train his ass off to succeed. While I'm sure there are drugs mixed up in lots of teams around the world to a greater or lesser extent, I think it really all boils down to who's got the guts to get up at 4:00 in the morning and lift weights year after year in pursuit of a dream, and whether that dream is big enough to keep you motivated.

Just a couple of rambling thoughts.

McIrish
03-16-2007, 08:20 AM
One quick anecdotal example. In Korea if you win a gold medal at the Olympics--in any event--you are exempted from the mandatory military draft and you are given a government monetary stipend for life. I'd have to search again to be sure, as IIRC in 2004 it was something on the order of $3,000/month for life. If you win a silver or a bronze medal you get similar, but proportionally reduced benefits.

I completely agree with the idea of "added incentive" in theory, but I'm specifically curious about the military draft notion, BF. Don't young Korean males only have military service immediately after high school/before college? That would put it at somewhere around 18-21 years, no? IIRC, my friends in Korea said it was only two years and change... but how many people win Olympic gold before they are 18?

I'd guess most of their winners are post-military service anyhow, no?

PowerManDL
03-16-2007, 08:47 AM
Drugs play a role sure. You're naive if you think that anyone is getting close to established world records, let along breaking them, without use of AAS and other ergogenic drugs.

The US may well not be using them these days; I've talked to people that are pretty in the know regarding the US OL program, and they seem to validate that the anti-doping policy is fairly strict. But to blame drugs *solely* for the US' poor showings in OL is stupid too.

The Russians and the Chinese have selection systems that channel their strong into OL that are on par with our football programs (from HS --> collegiate --> NFL). With the market for pro team sports in the US, guess where the talent goes?

The Chinese in particular have an interesting advantage. I've heard of their selection/training process being analogous to a meat grinder. You've got a couple hundred million to choose from; so you stick them into a strenuous training and development program that maybe 50-100 could tolerate for a career. It squashes most of the ones that go in, but the ones that survive, the ones that have world-class talent (genetics for the slow, as in the 110 lb Chinese girls that can snatch more than some of you squat) are the ones that come home with the medals.

Drugs are a part of that. There are very few athletes at the elite level of ANY sport, competing on the world stage, that aren't taking some sort of enhancement. Once you get to that point, you just about have to. Even with world-class genetics, sometimes the workloads required to perform at that level are just too much to be tolerated.

However, I think a lot of you would be surprised at the drug doses used. It's not a typical cycle the way you'd see in a bodybuilder. Doses of AAS required to create drastic changes in muscle tissue are a lot different from doses and durations required to create an adaptive recovery effect in sports that are neurologically dominant.

vrizzle
03-16-2007, 01:11 PM
Whose generalization? Your generalization? Generalizations don't prove anything.



Another Red Herring - 'Presumption of Innocence' has nothing to do with this discussion. Ever heard of logical fallacies? You already committed a whole bunch of them.



So when you answered the original question of the thread about why the US does so poorly in Oly lifting saying "We don't blood dope..." what you really meant is "Some of us do blood dope after all..." ?

And when Risk10k said that US oly lifters do use gear, you said, and I quote: "ummm, no they don't. Not our lifters." End quote.
What you really meant is, "yeah some of us do use it after all." ?

Nice attempt in trying to back out of your own logical quagmire - I don't blame you for trying.



I noticed that you have already resorted to using personal attacks. Usually when someone loses the argument they resort to Ad Hominem attacks such as these.

I also noticed that you continue to pretend that your omniscient. You don't know who I am yet you pretend to. How do you know I'm an "average joe"? Not that I have anything to prove over the internet but your comments speaks volumes on your character.



You know what I meant by my comment.

Let me reiterate myself. You are not omniscient, therefore you cannot know if someone is using or has used gear in the past. So when you made the statement, "We don't blood dope..." you were trying to 'prove a negative', something you will find quite difficult to do. Quite simply, you lost the argument.

Let me also point out that repeating the same thing over and insisting you are right proves nothing.

All you have done thus far is dig yourself into a deeper hole.

That is all.

1. Your entire family is on crack, they're a bunch of crack-heads can you tell me I'm wrong? You're not omniscient, are you with them 24/7? No.

2. Obviously that was a metaphor, I said that because it would hit close. You can't say you're with your family 24/7, but you can generalize and say they aren't.

3. You sit there and apparently are convinced that America's Weightlifters use. How can you be so sure that they do? I would like you to tell me their track record on doping because you are so convinced they do dope. When a lifter is caught with an illegal substance other than drugs you can say whatever you want, until then you have no base to tear down America's lifters saying they use because "everyone else does", or to say I'm wrong in saying they don't use.

4. There is no argument.

5. You are a condescending cynic. That is my observation.

6. I never called you an average joe, I speak in metaphors.

7. For others: Keep US Lifters in mind when you read my comment, not Marion Jones and that cyclist.

8. Chinese lifters, along with others, have been caught using of recent, while Americans haven't. That is a FACT.

vrizzle
03-16-2007, 01:22 PM
1 more thing gymnast-

If you're just going to analyze my comments, what are you posting for? For your health, therapy? Take a stand on something rather than sound like a know-it-all A**, just contradicting what I say. Do you think US lifters use or not? If you do then why? If you cannot say why then don't post anything.

Songsangnim
03-16-2007, 08:14 PM
1. Saying we don't blood dope is an accurate generalization as, Americans have no past history of doping since the 1968 olympics, except a few THC cases, which I don't think should be a banned substance. .


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07EED71E38F930A25756C0A962948260&sec=health&spon=pagewanted=1

First of all what you think should or shouldn't be banned is irrevelant. Those are the rules...which must be followed.

Secondly I would like to draw your attention to the point about Jeff Michels in the link I posted. After he tested positive a number of American athletes withdrew before being tested. If they were clean then why?

And this was in 1983...well after your claim of 1968. Yes American Olympic lifters use drugs...same as every other country.

gymnast
03-16-2007, 08:40 PM
1. Your entire family is on crack, they're a bunch of crack-heads can you tell me I'm wrong? You're not omniscient, are you with them 24/7? No.

Sorry but it has become painfully obvious that you don't understand your own logical fallacy. I don't even know how to begin to tell you how absurd this statement was.

I'm not the one trying to prove a negative - you are.


3. You sit there and apparently are convinced that America's Weightlifters use. How can you be so sure that they do? I would like you to tell me their track record on doping because you are so convinced they do dope. When a lifter is caught with an illegal substance other than drugs you can say whatever you want, until then you have no base to tear down America's lifters saying they use because "everyone else does", or to say I'm wrong in saying they don't use.

Again, I'm not the one trying to prove a negative -you are. So please don't put words into my mouth (kind of ironic because you accused me of doing the same thing to you)


5. You are a condescending cynic. That is my observation.

I'm sorry if it appears this way but its obvious that you already lost the argument and you're trying to redeem your ego over the internet with Ad Homs.


1 more thing gymnast-

If you're just going to analyze my comments, what are you posting for? For your health, therapy? Take a stand on something rather than sound like a know-it-all A**, just contradicting what I say. Do you think US lifters use or not? If you do then why? If you cannot say why then don't post anything.

Since this conversation has become littered with ad homs I will now politely end the conversation here. Hopefully you will take the time to listen to the other members of WBB.

phreak
03-17-2007, 01:04 AM
Since this conversation has become littered with ad homs I will now politely end the conversation here. Hopefully you will take the time to listen to the other members of WBB.

It has become glaringly obvious to all but vrizzle that the argument had already ended 2 pages ago.

beatlesfreak
03-18-2007, 10:05 PM
I completely agree with the idea of "added incentive" in theory, but I'm specifically curious about the military draft notion, BF. Don't young Korean males only have military service immediately after high school/before college? That would put it at somewhere around 18-21 years, no? IIRC, my friends in Korea said it was only two years and change... but how many people win Olympic gold before they are 18?

I'd guess most of their winners are post-military service anyhow, no?

In general, with a few exceptions, Korean men are eligible to be drafted [or to postpone their conscription] from 18 up to age 35. Many go right after high school just to get it over with, but it can be deferred for college, study abroad, professional or olympic sports training, and numerous other health and family related reasons.

Don't quote me on this, but I recall reading that of the 2002 World Cup soccer team, only one member had finished his military obligations prior to the tourney. Becuase of their 4th place finish, the entire team was released from their future military obligation. Same with the speed skaters that did so well in the past couple of winter games.

I don't know that this is as big an incentive as it was back in the eighties [think 1988 Seoul Games] because, as you mentioned, the military service obligation is a) many months less now than it was 20 years ago and b) much more civilized than it was 20 years ago.

There's still a lot of incentive in holding out that carrot in front of athletes though, as it is always mentioned on Korean news programs during big international sporting competitions. And of course there's the monetary stipend. Money is almost always the best incentive. :nod:

McIrish
03-19-2007, 09:32 AM
And of course there's the monetary stipend. Money is almost always the best incentive. :nod:

Yeah, no kidding. That per annum thing is nuts! Does it compound if you get TWO olympic medals? Imagine doubling up on your monthly "income" for the rest of your life! :)

Hey BF, do you speak Korean? I'm curious - it seems like you've lived there for quite some time.

Sleepy Guy
03-19-2007, 10:29 AM
Yeah, no kidding. That per annum thing is nuts! Does it compound if you get TWO olympic medals? Imagine doubling up on your monthly "income" for the rest of your life! :)

Money is not everything. If that where the case there would be very little Canadian athletes.

beatlesfreak
03-19-2007, 05:56 PM
Yeah, no kidding. That per annum thing is nuts! Does it compound if you get TWO olympic medals? Imagine doubling up on your monthly "income" for the rest of your life!

Hey BF, do you speak Korean? I'm curious - it seems like you've lived there for quite some time.

I lived and worked there for close to 15 years. No one will ever confuse me for a native speaker, but I speak the language well enough to raise a few surprised eyebrows every now and again.

Not sure about getting more money for each medal won. Probably not, but that would be cool. Imagine if someone like Mark Spitz or Carl Lewis had gotten a deal like that.


:strong:

beatlesfreak
03-19-2007, 05:57 PM
If that where the case there would be very little Canadian athletes.

Very "little" Canadian athletes? You mean like midgets or something? jk


:D

Sidior
03-19-2007, 10:16 PM
Drugs play a role sure. You're naive if you think that anyone is getting close to established world records, let along breaking them, without use of AAS and other ergogenic drugs.

The US may well not be using them these days; I've talked to people that are pretty in the know regarding the US OL program, and they seem to validate that the anti-doping policy is fairly strict. But to blame drugs *solely* for the US' poor showings in OL is stupid too.

The Russians and the Chinese have selection systems that channel their strong into OL that are on par with our football programs (from HS --> collegiate --> NFL). With the market for pro team sports in the US, guess where the talent goes?

The Chinese in particular have an interesting advantage. I've heard of their selection/training process being analogous to a meat grinder. You've got a couple hundred million to choose from; so you stick them into a strenuous training and development program that maybe 50-100 could tolerate for a career. It squashes most of the ones that go in, but the ones that survive, the ones that have world-class talent (genetics for the slow, as in the 110 lb Chinese girls that can snatch more than some of you squat) are the ones that come home with the medals.

Drugs are a part of that. There are very few athletes at the elite level of ANY sport, competing on the world stage, that aren't taking some sort of enhancement. Once you get to that point, you just about have to. Even with world-class genetics, sometimes the workloads required to perform at that level are just too much to be tolerated.

However, I think a lot of you would be surprised at the drug doses used. It's not a typical cycle the way you'd see in a bodybuilder. Doses of AAS required to create drastic changes in muscle tissue are a lot different from doses and durations required to create an adaptive recovery effect in sports that are neurologically dominant.


Could you please elaborate on this?

PowerManDL
03-20-2007, 05:20 AM
Based on the (admittedly few) sources I've heard from, but consider reliable in this area, you're looking at the use of primarily oral compounds, with dbol, drol, anavar, and winny being the most common.

Injectibles are used as well, depending (typically short ester stuff with fast clearance times), but typically you'll see doses of no more than 20-50mg/day, or in the range of 150-300mg/week *in total*, and generally restricted to heavy pre-competition phases of training. Most don't stay on consistently as you'd expect from a competing bodybuilder or powerlifter (which both benefit greatly from increased muscle mass and their psychological effects on performance).

This is done to accentuate recovery during periods of heavy training leading up to a contest, typically synchronized with the heavy loading period and subsequent tapering down to a contest. The drugs are often ceased with enough time to clear the system (for testing purposes) but before any potential hormonal/systemic disruption would interfere with performance.

I'm thinking along the lines of track and field athletes here, the sprinters, shot-putters, jumpers, things of that nature, but the non-SHW classes of weightlifting would really fall under this category as well (as they aren't so dependent on having huge amounts of muscle mass to boost performance).

Joshua Davis
03-20-2007, 10:55 PM
here's the points that everyone needs to notice...


1. Weightlifting in Eastern European, Asian, Pacific, and Persian/Middle Eastern countries has been a strong tradition for quite some time... almost as much as varsity sports here in the US.

2. America *has* had a handful of lifters test positive for PED (Shannon Hartnett a few years ago, IIRC), but nowhere near the amount of infractions seen by Iran, Australia, and India (listing the most severe and recent I've heard of). I do believe that due to the US Olympic Commitee's intent to preserve credibility, they test our athletes frequently and impose harsh penalties independent of the IOC.

3. The attitude that America's lifter's "suck" at Olympic lifting, is exactly the problem. Unless you are one of them, you don't even have the credibility to hold their dirty sweatsocks. Your attitude is more the problem than their ability, which is far from "sucking", it simply lacks the popularity, recruitment pool, and nationalistic backing provided by other countries to their athletes.

4. I predict that in the near future, you'll hear from names like Kendrick Farris and James Moser, doing significant damage internationally in the next few years.

Joshua Davis
03-20-2007, 11:02 PM
Let me also mention that I have trained with the holder of quite a few junior national record in the clean and jerk in 2 separate weight classes, 56kg and 62kg set back in the 90's. This guy has put 3x his bodyweight over his head, and has a profound hatred for steroids...

Additionally he has trained, and even lived with members of the US Olympic team - and believes that they were also strongly opposed to drug use.

Anthony
03-21-2007, 05:13 AM
3. The attitude that America's lifter's "suck" at Olympic lifting, is exactly the problem. Unless you are one of them, you don't even have the credibility to hold their dirty sweatsocks. Your attitude is more the problem than their ability, which is far from "sucking", it simply lacks the popularity, recruitment pool, and nationalistic backing provided by other countries to their athletes.
AGREED.



4. I predict that in the near future, you'll hear from names like Kendrick Farris and James Moser, doing significant damage internationally in the next few years.
Agreed again - James is a BEAST.

By the way, for those of you who aren't familiar with James Moser, check out some of his videos at Mike's Gym: http://mikesgym.org/gallery/gallery.php?show=gallery&galleryID=26

Guido
03-21-2007, 12:58 PM
By the way, for those of you who aren't familiar with James Moser, check out some of his videos at Mike's Gym: http://mikesgym.org/gallery/gallery.php?show=gallery&galleryID=26I saw the 175 (386 lbs!) Clean + Jerk and HOLY *****!