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MonStar1023
02-20-2002, 05:30 PM
I was wondering what you guys thought of this. This is one of the things that Rob Faigin talks about in Natural Horomonal Enhancement and I was wondering how valid of a point it really is. He stresses that you DO NOT consume any kind of carbohydrate 90 minutes before bed. If you do he says, you will be severely and negatively affecting your natural growth hormone output while youre asleep.

Well now on carb-load days I will be consuming 2 carb-up meals. One around 6:30 and one around 9:30. Well I go to bed around 10:00. So obviously I am not going to be following his recommendation. Will this dramatically affect my results?

:help::help:

... Also by the way, Rob suggests up to 200g of carbs in each of the 2 carb-up meals. If you can handle it he says. Ill be taking in around 225g in the first meal, and around 85g carbs in the second.

David
02-20-2002, 06:18 PM
good post

mdirrane12
02-20-2002, 06:26 PM
The early sleep period, during which growth hormone and cortisol levels are maximally disassociated in favor of growth hormone, is a time of uniquely significant anabolic activity. With advancing age, the nighttime sleep-induced growth hormone surge falls and the cortisol low point rises, consonant with the age-related reduction in the anabolic/catabolic ratio. THE HORMONAL SHIFT TOWARDS CATABOLISM IS LARGELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PHYSICAL DETERIORATION OF AGING, AND THE CLOSING OF THE NOCTURNAL ANABOLIC WINDOW MAY PLAY A CENTRAL ROLE IN THIS CONNECTION. Therefore, you are dramatically affecting your results. And remember, no carbs before or during your workouts or you'll restrain growth hormone release.

There is a minimum for carbs at each of the carb-loads which is 100g. The more the better. Ive heard people use 500-700g total carbs. I think that if the insulin spike was so important, Rob would not be saying to maximize the starchy over the sugary carbs.

MonStar1023
02-20-2002, 06:32 PM
mdirrane12-
Thanks for the reply bro. I was wondering.. have you checked out either of my online journals? I have one thats around 2 months or so long and then my current one. I know that Rob really stresses the importance of no carbs before bed. Damn bro up to 500-700g carbs!? I didnt know that.. wow. I am probably taking in around 300-400g in just one single meal. And now that I am changing things up, I will be taking in around 300g. Check out my thread here in the Diet Board called "HELP With My 2nd Carb-up Meal.." bla bla bla. I talk about changing up my carb-up meal. I decide finally to go with carbing up 2x per week, and splitting my carb-up meal into 2 portions. The first meal is more high-glycemic, and the second more low-glycemic.

Current NHE Journal..
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=8908

Old NHE Journal...
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=6764

:cool::cool:

MonStar1023
02-20-2002, 06:36 PM
mdirrane12-
Curious bro.. even if I am training and dieting more for fat-loss you think that I should be taking in closer to 500-700g carbs in the 2 carb-up meals rather than just 250-350g? I mean I could easily take in a LOT more carbs I think. Actually I KNOW. Haha I always eat as much spagetti as I can handle, Gatorade, and 2 scoops of ice-cream.

:p:p

... But since youre saying that Rob is saying that more is better.. which I have read in NHE, but only the Bodybuilding NHE Plan, I guess I should be taking in a lot more. My first meal is pasta, Gatorade and low-fat ice-cream. My second meal is oatmeal. Should I be taking in maybe 300g carbs at each meal?

:help::help:

MonStar1023
02-20-2002, 07:00 PM
mdirrane12-
Damn I may not be consuming ENOUGH carbs in my carb-up. After reading a few things over at www.extique.com in the Ask Rob column. Jeez. He goes on about how "the more carbs the better" etc. I am thinking about maybe raising my first carb-up meal to around 300g of carbs, and my second to around 200g. Would this be a bad idea? I personally dont think so but I just want more opinions.

:cool::cool:

PowerManDL
02-20-2002, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by mdirrane12
And remember, no carbs before or during your workouts or you'll restrain growth hormone release.

Ridiculous. I'd rather have an effective workout and effective recovery from it than some transient hormonal release which doesn't even have an effect.

Qea
02-20-2002, 07:48 PM
sleep later, bro ;)

MonStar1023
02-21-2002, 09:20 AM
Yeah thanks for the replies. I am not going to be too concerned with my sleep. I am going to be consuming around 300g of carbs during my carb-up period. I really hope that that's enough to support recovery, muscle growth, etc. over the course of 3-4 days..

:cool::cool:

HST is demanding..

Par Deus
02-21-2002, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL


Ridiculous. I'd rather have an effective workout and effective recovery from it than some transient hormonal release which doesn't even have an effect.


Just want to second this.

Growth hormone, in the amounts that can be maniulated by diet, does nothing.

It is quite a different story for insulin and probably cortisol.

MonStar1023
02-21-2002, 10:55 AM
Par Deus-
Can you explain this in further detail? So I guess Rob puts too much emphasis on hGH and not enough emphasis on leptin and insulin etc.

:cool::cool:

body
02-21-2002, 05:05 PM
there are lots of hormones to be taken into account, if one increase another may be decreasing so the over all effect is zero.

i would be one who rather eats.

Spiderman
02-21-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL


Ridiculous. I'd rather have an effective workout and effective recovery from it than some transient hormonal release which doesn't even have an effect.

I'd like to second that agreement. ;)

mdirrane12
02-21-2002, 05:43 PM
Bodybuilders must maximize the starchy carbs. One of the carb-loads Rob recommended to a bodybuilder was 300-500g depending on muscle mass spread out over at least 2 meals. There is no upper limit on carbs, more is better. For fat loss, fat must be kept at under 20g at each carb-load. Protein must also be kept under 20g at each carb-load because 1) it will max out the carbs and 2) high quantities of carbs and protein cause problems with digestion and elimination. But there is an amendment that was made on Ask Rob and not included in the book- the 20g protein limit does not apply when the protein is contained in a starchy food.
The goal of the bodybuilders diet is to gain mass while staying lean. To get leaner you could do many things: 1. reduce your fat intake, but that would effect mass by lowering testosterone and intramuscular triglyceride which fuels high-intensity exercise. 2. reduce carbs at the
carb-loads, but that would lower you glycogen levels. Regardless of whether your goal is mass or to be lean you should maximize the starchy carbs.

The ice cream and gatorade in your carb-loads might be the cause of your cravings. While starchy carbs are more efficient at restoring muscle glycogen, sugary carbs is more efficient at raising blood sugar levels when carb is resricted in the ensuing downcycle. This means that the morning after, blood sugar and insulin levels will continue to rise and fall as stored sugar is released from the liver and this will reduce fat-burning, energy levels, mental productivity, and cause hormonal hunger.

Insulin is a heavily manipulated hormone in NHE. Insulin manipulation is what makes the bodybuilders diet effective at keeping you lean while adding muscle mass. GH is raised when carbs are restricted in the downcylce, then insulin is raised at strategic intervals to allow the 2 hormones to work together to produce IGF-1.

Chronic high insulin lowers testosterone. Periodic carb-loading raises testosterone.

TreeTrunks
02-21-2002, 05:44 PM
You already produce a lot of GH just by sleeping and working out and stress from school/work.

Zalxder
02-21-2002, 05:47 PM
jesus christ this is all confusing, but i got it

mdirrane12
02-21-2002, 05:57 PM
You should take digestive enzymes. Especially before big meals.

The NHE bodybuilders diet enhances anabolism by maximizing GH, IGF-1, and testosterone. Testosterone is the most powerful anabolic hormone. I dont know which is more powerful- insulin or growth hormone. But while insulin is fat-STORING, growth hormone is fat-BURNING. Insulin's anabolic properties get enhanced while its fat-storing properties get minimized. By using a high-carb mass-building diet, you are constantly suppressing GH and testosterone via chronic high blood sugar and chronic high insulin.

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-21-2002, 06:00 PM
Insulin <~~~~~~~~at the top

Test <~~~~~~Below.

at least as far as anabolism goes.

mdirrane12
02-21-2002, 06:02 PM
GH release from school/stress. That reminds me. Any new form of stress causes a transient increase in GH. For example, by depriving yourself of sleep, you transiently raise GH. And when you make up for it with extra sleep the next night you get a super-normal nocturnal GH surge. That looks good, right? But the net effect is nothing. This is because stress and sleep deprivation also suppresses testosterone and raises cortisol. This offsets the anabolic effects of extra GH.

mdirrane12
02-21-2002, 06:10 PM
Is there any research proving what the hierarchy of anabolism is for the anabolic hormones? Insulin requires GH to properly execute its anabolic duties. Could you direct me to research that shows that shows insulin is more anabolic than testosterone?

MonStar1023
02-21-2002, 06:10 PM
Damn this is all so interesting to me. The effect of food on your body's natural horomones. Very interesting. I think that NHE and similar diets will prove to be the most promising when it comes to future diets, that actually work. I mean the results that I have received on NHE are incredible.

I have decided to drop my fat intake on my carb-up meal. So things are looking good.

:cool::cool:

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-21-2002, 06:12 PM
Why does insulin need GH for anabolic duties? Please explain.

GH needs growth factors, specifically IGF-1 for it's anabolic duties.

Zalxder
02-21-2002, 06:18 PM
ok someone make it simple, what do you eat and when do you eat it before bed?

mdirrane12
02-21-2002, 06:57 PM
Because one of the anabolic duties of insulin is to drive IGF-1 production. GH needs insulin and Insulin needs GH: the 2 hormones co-regulate production of insulin-like growth factors. In a study on depancreatized cats, GH injections had no anabolic effects without insulin. And in insulin-dependent diabetics, GH injections fail to raise IGF-1 when insulin is inadequate.
As far as drug use goes, you can gain 30-40 lbs of LBM in 3 months with GH injections. But insulin injections alone wont cause muscle growth because the artificially raised insulin level requires an artificially raised GH level to produce IGF-1.

PowerManDL
02-21-2002, 07:03 PM
GH has no anabolic effects *with* insulin, either. At least regarding muscle tissue.

Its a moot point. For muscular anabolism, the most important factors are insulin, IGF-1, and testosterone, with T3 and catecholamines playing a lesser but still powerful role. hGH does practically nothing for muscle tissue.

Marcel
02-21-2002, 10:08 PM
This thread is great!

Mdirrane 12 - good to have you posting here. Great info.

Powerman - you know your shiat too...lets have a good discussion up in here!

irish mike
02-22-2002, 02:28 AM
dont know exactly what's going on in my body but low carbs(<20g) followed by weekly carb ups and i'm in the best shape of my life.if it aint broke...

MonStar1023
02-22-2002, 06:24 AM
irish mike-
Haha thats kinda the same way with me. I am not TOTALLY clear, yet at least, on exactly what hormones are doing what, and which hormone is more powerful, and which hormone has a more anabolic effect etc. But I know that following NHE I have never had better results.

:cool::cool:

Par Deus
02-22-2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
hGH does practically nothing for muscle tissue.


Just want to "ditto" this. Even with injections, which deliver much, much higher hGH levels than dietary manipulations could ever do, there were NO GAINS in muscle tissue vs. control -- there was LBM increases, but it was organ weight.

You guys need to get off the GH kick.

Here is the study:

Yarasheski KE, Campbell JA, Smith K, Rennie MJ, Holloszy JO, Bier DM Effect of growth hormone and resistance exercise on muscle growth in young men. Am J Physiol 1992 Mar;262(3 Pt 1):E261-7

irish mike
02-22-2002, 04:00 PM
par deus-so hgh causes turtle belly?

MonStar1023
02-22-2002, 08:49 PM
I am not on an hGH kick... I am following NHE and the author is. But the diet has worked incredibly well so I cant complain!

:cool::cool:

Avatar
02-22-2002, 09:45 PM
is hGH not one of the most powerful lipolytic hormones?

if so, would it not be the hormone of choice when trying to reduce body fat?

PowerManDL
02-23-2002, 01:06 PM
It can be.....but remember, exercise preferentially causes subcutaneous fat loss, while dieting tends to cause visceral fat loss.

Take your cues from the hormonal differences in each case.

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-23-2002, 01:29 PM
the abstract - a very interesting one at that - good point to bring up Matt.

Med Sci Sports Exerc 1997 Dec;29(12):1549-53 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Relationship between training frequency and subcutaneous and visceral fat in women.

Abe T, Kawakami Y, Sugita M, Fukunaga T.

Department of Exercise and Sport Science, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Hachioji, Japan.

We examined the interaction of two different frequencies of aerobic exercise training (30 min at 50-60% of maximal heart rate reserve per session) and a self-administered caloric restriction program on the changes in subcutaneous (SFM) and visceral (VFM) fat mass over a period of 13 wk. Twenty-six sedentary young women (27.9% body fat) were randomized into three groups: nonexercising control (C, N = 8); 1-2 sessions/wk plus a 240 kcal caloric restriction (1-2SW, N = 9); and 3-4 sessions/wk without caloric restriction (3-4SW, N = 9). There was a equivalent decrease in the percentage of body fat and total fat mass in both exercise groups compared with that in C. Reduction in SFM was significant in 3-4SW, but not in 1-2SW or C. A negative correlation was observed between training frequency and changes in SFM (r = -0.65). In contrast, VFM decreased significantly and equivalently in both 1-2SW and 3-4SW, but there was no correlation between training frequency and changes in VFM (r = 0.20). It is suggested that the decrease in SFM, but not VFM, is proportional to the amount of aerobic exercise training. A change in VFM appears to be related to an deficit in caloric balance either by dietary restriction (decrease caloric intake) or by increased caloric expenditure.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 9432085 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Par Deus
02-24-2002, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Avatar
is hGH not one of the most powerful lipolytic hormones?

if so, would it not be the hormone of choice when trying to reduce body fat?

Leptin is considerably more important -- if injections ever become readily available, a lean person could diet, losing 2-3lbs week after week, without so much as a single craving, with zero muscle loss, until they died of starvation -- and going without carbs is the worst thing you can do for leptin.

MonStar1023
02-24-2002, 10:29 AM
Par Deus-
Now I see why you have a problem with NHE. Low carbs all week and only around 3-4 carb-meals per week.

:cool::cool:

Mr.Buttcheeks
02-24-2002, 10:50 AM
when do you think they will come out with leptin injections. when that comes out it will be easy to get ripped. that would kinda suck in a way, everyone could get ripped easily, therefore anyone could look inshape, bodybuilding wouldnt even be a challenge

Par Deus
02-25-2002, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Mr.Buttcheeks
when do you think they will come out with leptin injections. when that comes out it will be easy to get ripped. that would kinda suck in a way, everyone could get ripped easily, therefore anyone could look inshape, bodybuilding wouldnt even be a challenge


They do not work in obese people (they are leptin resistant), so I do not know if they ever will. Basically, I think someone would have to have it produced for the sole purpose of supplying it to bodybuilders.