General steroid question (s)

[Jordanbcool]

I got a few questions for everyone here. Most of it isn't specific but more general in nature. Please don't post in the thread if your angry; no-one likes angry people. :p

Jokes aside. I don't know if I will start my first cycle this fall. I don't know if I'm ready basically. I've seen that people who dive into this stuff without planning/being ready often end up with bad results. Like not being able to make other copies of myself (babies) isn't cool. I also want to get the best gains I can. Why buy a $400 cycle if my diet sucks and I make mediocre gains at best.

So a couple questions..

1) Any indication of some type of gains I can expect? Right now I'm 5'8 200 pounds 15% bodyfat. These numbers aren't 100% accurate but I'm confident enough to put them down here. These numbers are depleted so I should gain a couple more pounds once I eat normally. I've been lifting weights for about six years now and I've been dieting/bodybuilding for two. Again this will be my FIRST cycle. I'll be following the "first cycle sticky" to the letter.

2) Test. tends to have favorable partitioning effects. So I want to stay around 11% year round while making good LBM gains. Any ideas of what I should eat over maintenance? In the past I would bulk on 4k which was a terrible idea. I'm a BIG endomorph in that I gain fat/mass easily. If I don't use AAS I wanted to do a clean bulk (300-500 over maintenance) but I think I could push that to maybe 500-1000 without significant bodyfat?? Let me know if you guys think I could get away with more or if I should stick to the typical 500 rule of thumb.

3) I'm moving out to my first year of a 4-year college (transfer student). Would me taking my first cycle drastically affect my grades. Like did anyone else in a similar situation find it difficult to juice while living in dorm housing, being on your own, studying etc.

4) It seems dumb but does it matter what days/time I inject?

5) I'm drawing a blank right now as far as questions go. But if anyone could throw some practical advice my way that'd be great. Like "be sure to keep some extra food handy because you get hungry as hell on a cycle" or something of that nature. Dunno what else to ask really everything else has already been answered/discussed.

I def. need to do some more research though before I commit to this 100%. Also if you think I'm not ready or that I don't know enough then let me know why and try to be nice about it. Like I said, nothing wrong with being informed (but you don't have to be a jerk about it).

Take care everyone.

-jordan

[RBB]

1) Any indication of some type of gains I can expect? Right now I'm 5'8 200 pounds 15% bodyfat. These numbers aren't 100% accurate but I'm confident enough to put them down here. These numbers are depleted so I should gain a couple more pounds once I eat normally. I've been lifting weights for about six years now and I've been dieting/bodybuilding for two. Again this will be my FIRST cycle. I'll be following the "first cycle sticky" to the letter.
your gains will totally depend on your diet. i'm guessing you'll be trying to gain weight so the only advice i can give you here is to get your bf down to at least 10% before you start. that'll give you some some room to grow. if you're going for a clean, steady bulk i'd expect at least 1lb of lbm/wk without putting on a significant amount of bodyfat.

2) Test. tends to have favorable partitioning effects. So I want to stay around 11% year round while making good LBM gains. Any ideas of what I should eat over maintenance? In the past I would bulk on 4k which was a terrible idea. I'm a BIG endomorph in that I gain fat/mass easily. If I don't use AAS I wanted to do a clean bulk (300-500 over maintenance) but I think I could push that to maybe 500-1000 without significant bodyfat?? Let me know if you guys think I could get away with more or if I should stick to the typical 500 rule of thumb.
again, this is a highly individual question. if you're looking to gain only lean mass i would start at 500 cals over maintenance and see where you're at on a week to week basis. slowly increase until you start to notice you're gaining more bf than you want to.

3) I'm moving out to my first year of a 4-year college (transfer student). Would me taking my first cycle drastically affect my grades. Like did anyone else in a similar situation find it difficult to juice while living in dorm housing, being on your own, studying etc.
you shouldn't have any problems there unless you've got nosey roommates. do not tell anyone you're juicing. i've seen that come back to bite guys in the ass plenty of times. don't trust others with this kind of information. you might find it hard to concentrate/sleep while on cycle. that's just the way it goes. you'll definitely want to have some understanding ladies around that can help you out with that, lol.

4) It seems dumb but does it matter what days/time I inject?
doesn't matter. i always inject after a shower, though. just make sure you're clean.
-jordan

good luck bro.

[HahnB]

He pretty much covered it. How many lbs did you want to gain on this cycle jordan?

[Nosaj]

Your head is in the right place bro. Good questions, RBB answered them pretty solid. Be 100% confident in your diet before you start, know your maintenance, know how much over maintenance you need to each to gain 1lb in a week. Don't tell anyone you're using, unless it's your doctor if you run into serious health issues. Nobody needs to know and most people just aren't objective enough to respect your decision (most people are ignorant about it all, in a negative way thanks to the media). First cycle is a blast, enjoy it. Don't get too worked up over it, a dedicated person on gear most likely won't run into problems. Remember to massage injection sites for a couple minutes post injection, helps releive any muscle soreness the next day. Keep it clean like RBB said, post shower or alcohol wipe the area down well. Oh, and start at a low bf% like you've mentioned. The lower you start, the happier you'll be in the end. Remember, if you're doing a bulk cycle, you have to hold that weight for the same amount of time you're on through PCT, so you don't want to be a fat blimp while losing the euphoria of being on. You're going to gain bf%, so I wouldn't start until you get under 12% at least, 10% or lower would be ideal, and you seem patient.

[Gabrielle]

Get below 10% then clean bulk on your cycle. The greatest lesson I have learned is how not to rely on excessive fat gain in exchange for muscle. It is a really difficult habit to break esp. while on gear. Once I learned that I was able to stay in the single digits year round and my physique looked much better. Off topic, anyways nosaj hit in the head. Good luck

[jAy_Dub]

The 2 biggest things I learned from my first cycle...

1. Start out at a low bf%. I started at about 16 which was a big mistake. I ate like crazy but I still was scared of gaining fat so I didnt eat as much as I could have. Next time I'm goona make sure and be at a much lower bf% so I can just eat my ass off.

2. Keep your cals up during pct. I went down to maintenance and it completely ****ed me over. I thought I could maintain much easier but I lost about 5 lbs of muscle which I regret everyday. Keep your cals as high as you were during the cycle for atleast a month then casually cut them down to maintenance for another month. I figured my maintenance cals would work for me but I lost some muscle I definitely shouldnt have.

All I can say is you live and you learn. I learned from my mistakes for sure. I'm definitely doing things different next time around. The biggest thing imo is maintaining your gains after your cycle. I was unprepaired for that part...

[Jordanbcool]

He pretty much covered it. How many lbs did you want to gain on this cycle jordan?

I guess as much as possible without too much bodyfat :D

I think I'd be happy with a 10lb gain possibly more if I don't mind getting fatter. I'm trying to keep my expectations as low/realistic as possible. Each one of my bulks my expectations are through the roof and I meet them but not how I'd like too (usually because I gain to much fat weight).

Again. I'd like to do some more research before I start or think about starting. IMO post-cycle is probably more important in a way since thats where you lose/keep your muscle gains. As of now thats probably my biggest concern. Some people get hit really hard post cycle and it bites them in the can.

[Jordanbcool]

Also. I'd like to post some photo's around July so you guys can get a feel/look at my size. I think I should look much better/bigger when I finish cutting and this will also give a better indication if I could still make normal gains without steroids. I'll post some lift numbers too. Probably just the big three.

[Holto]

Just a thought:

You've proven that you can dedicate yourself to a cut and execute it, so I'd like to see you go all out and put some serious beef on. Do your PCT, maintain for a month or two and then cut.

[HahnB]

I guess as much as possible without too much bodyfat :D

I think I'd be happy with a 10lb gain possibly more if I don't mind getting fatter. I'm trying to keep my expectations as low/realistic as possible. Each one of my bulks my expectations are through the roof and I meet them but not how I'd like too (usually because I gain to much fat weight).

Again. I'd like to do some more research before I start or think about starting. IMO post-cycle is probably more important in a way since thats where you lose/keep your muscle gains. As of now thats probably my biggest concern. Some people get hit really hard post cycle and it bites them in the can.

10lbs is no problem. I put on 25lbs my first cycle-but I was pretty lean to start and like everyone else said that's a big benefit. More importantly than what you need to do during the cycle is what you do afterwards. Not just what drugs you use for pct, but remember that training during pct sucks. It took me a good 3 months before I lost that "sloppy" feeling and began to feel normal again. When you come off you're probably gonna feel loose, you don't have that constant pump-that was the biggest problem for me was getting over that mental hump. I'm sure most others will agree. Even if you don't lose weight during pct, it's the mental aspect that is the hardest. Even with all this taken into consideration, I doubt you'll ever regret doing a cycle:)

[method115]

10lbs is no problem. I put on 25lbs my first cycle-but I was pretty lean to start and like everyone else said that's a big benefit. More importantly than what you need to do during the cycle is what you do afterwards. Not just what drugs you use for pct, but remember that training during pct sucks. It took me a good 3 months before I lost that "sloppy" feeling and began to feel normal again. When you come off you're probably gonna feel loose, you don't have that constant pump-that was the biggest problem for me was getting over that mental hump. I'm sure most others will agree. Even if you don't lose weight during pct, it's the mental aspect that is the hardest. Even with all this taken into consideration, I doubt you'll ever regret doing a cycle:)

Did you keep your workouts just as intense during PCT or did you just let your body rest and workout less? I've heard of people doing both and I was wondering whats better to do. I would have thought keeping them the same intensity is better but you not sure. Also what drugs did you use during PCT 3 months seems like a very long time to feel "sloppy"?

[HahnB]

Did you keep your workouts just as intense during PCT or did you just let your body rest and workout less? I've heard of people doing both and I was wondering whats better to do. I would have thought keeping them the same intensity is better but you not sure. Also what drugs did you use during PCT 3 months seems like a very long time to feel "sloppy"?

It was so long ago I don't even remember exactly what I did. I would always keep workouts intense-including during pct-try to keep strength up. I used clomid/nolva for pct. When you have a 24 hour pump for 10 weeks you're bound to feel different when you come off, regardless of pct. It's just the transition right afterwards that sucks.

[Jordanbcool]

Just a thought:

You've proven that you can dedicate yourself to a cut and execute it, so I'd like to see you go all out and put some serious beef on. Do your PCT, maintain for a month or two and then cut.

I thought you would be one of many trying to convince me I wasnt ready:evillaugh

So you would say try to add as much bulk as possible? Seems like thats what most people would do. Everyone hates cutting so thats why I wanted to clean bulk in the first place. At the same time, a couple pounds extra mass never hurt nobody.

[Jordanbcool]

It was so long ago I don't even remember exactly what I did. I would always keep workouts intense-including during pct-try to keep strength up. I used clomid/nolva for pct. When you have a 24 hour pump for 10 weeks you're bound to feel different when you come off, regardless of pct. It's just the transition right afterwards that sucks.

Yup, I'm def. more concerned with post cycle. Actually, the only thing during a cycle I'm worried about is just pricking myself. I don't really have a problem eating a ton. My last bulk I got up to 230 at 5'8! I like working out so intensity isn't much of a problem unless I had a bad sleep/day or something. Everything else is in order usually but theres just a mental aspect of it.

I actually had a dream last night about my first week of cycling. I poked myself in the ass. It hurt like hell, and was sore forever. But it was pretty funny since me obese girlfriend was watching me while I did it.

[Hatred]

Your Diet dictates your results as does your knowledge of yourself.
Keep your protein HIGH. OVER 40% of your macros.

Everything else is a variable.

[method115]

I thought you would be one of many trying to convince me I wasnt ready:evillaugh

So you would say try to add as much bulk as possible? Seems like thats what most people would do. Everyone hates cutting so thats why I wanted to clean bulk in the first place. At the same time, a couple pounds extra mass never hurt nobody.

I try to add as much mass as possible during every bulk just because it's so hard for me to do. Cutting for me is really easy and I do it real well last time I cut I was 165 for about 4 months and people were asking me what happened because I looked so much smaller but I hadn't lost any weight at all.

[Nosaj]

Actually, the only thing during a cycle I'm worried about is just pricking myself.

I actually had a dream last night about my first week of cycling. I poked myself in the ass. It hurt like hell, and was sore forever. But it was pretty funny since me obese girlfriend was watching me while I did it.

Bro, pinch yourself as hard as you can. That hurts about 5x as much as a 1.5" 23g needle, and you can hardly feel a 1" 25g needle at all. 5 minutes of cardio hurts worse than pinning does, haha. It's all mental, toughen up cupcake. :D

[RBB]

Bro, pinch yourself as hard as you can. That hurts about 5x as much as a 1.5" 23g needle, and you can hardly feel a 1" 25g needle at all. 5 minutes of cardio hurts worse than pinning does, haha. It's all mental, toughen up cupcake. :D

right, but nobody can deny being nervous their first time or two. i know i was sweating and shaking like an idiot, lol.

[Nosaj]

right, but nobody can deny being nervous their first time or two. i know i was sweating and shaking like an idiot, lol.

Self-motivational pep-talks for the win. I believe the statement "Stop being a pussy!" and pinching yourself are motivational requirements for first timers. :p Ever get that "doctor's office" taste in your mouth when you were getting nervous?

[Jordanbcool]

Self-motivational pep-talks for the win. I believe the statement "Stop being a pussy!" and pinching yourself are motivational requirements for first timers. :p Ever get that "doctor's office" taste in your mouth when you were getting nervous?

Its not the pain aspect at all. Its the fact that I'm doing it to myself. If someone else where pricking me I wouldn't care. I don't fear needles. Again, its the psychological aspect. The brain is like "you idiot, why are you going to hurt yourself". So its not the pain factor its the fact that I'm doing it. Not the size or pain but just the simple fact that I'm doing it on myself.

I'll be fine. I'll just count off and do it. Get it done and that'll be that. Like RBB said, everyone gets nervous the first couple times.

Anyways, thanks to everyone for the solid advice. You've given me some good pointers and I def. want to bookmark this thread.

[Jordanbcool]

Your Diet dictates your results as does your knowledge of yourself.
Keep your protein HIGH. OVER 40% of your macros.

Everything else is a variable.

Is this a post cycle suggestion or a general rule of thumb while using? I had planned to keep my protein pretty high but I'm wondering if you're saying I should raise it when I come off or not?

[Hatred]

That's the best advice I can give you in general.
It applies all the time.
eat primarily Protein and watch your body recomposition. I never thought I could gain weight and get leaner. I thought wrong. Diet is everything.

[SpecialK]

Question for any experienced users who care to comment - many of you said that 15-20 lb. lean gains were not uncommon for a first cycle when executed properly. My question is - in the few months prior to doing your first cycle, how were your natural gains coming along - were they going great, had they completely dried up, etc?

[Beast]

1. Start out at a low bf%.
Very true. I think it's better to start out at 12% or lower.

[Nosaj]

My question is - in the few months prior to doing your first cycle, how were your natural gains coming along - were they going great, had they completely dried up, etc?

If your natural gains have halted, you're either not eating enough, sleeping enough or lifting heavy enough weights. There is no reason you shouldn't gain naturally compared to assisted, it's the same game, just less efficient.

[SpecialK]

If your natural gains have halted, you're either not eating enough, sleeping enough or lifting heavy enough weights. There is no reason you shouldn't gain naturally compared to assisted, it's the same game, just less efficient.

Well what if less efficient = so slow to the point of being unnoticeable? I eat plenty, I get enough sleep, and I train near failure every workout, yet I'd say I may have put on 1 lb. of muscle in the past year tops.

[Nosaj]

Well what if less efficient = so slow to the point of being unnoticeable? I eat plenty, I get enough sleep, and I train near failure every workout, yet I'd say I may have put on 1 lb. of muscle in the past year tops.

Plenty for maintenance perhaps. How much body weight have you gained in the past year? You say 1lb LBM, how many pounds of fat? If you've only gained 1lb in the past year, you're obviously NOT eating "plenty". I'm not doggin' on you, just pointing out the obvious. I know how hard it is to eat a ton of food, going from 4k-6k calories last summer I felt like I was gonna exlode, constantly. Always bloated, always feeling full and sick. But guess what, I broke from my 230lb plateau up to about 245lbs in about 2-3 months. Diet is key, even when I thought I had my diet dialed in, I found ways to tweak even more gains out of it. It's a lifestyle of constant learning and aquiring knowledge of what works best for us.

[SpecialK]

Plenty for maintenance perhaps. How much body weight have you gained in the past year? You say 1lb LBM, how many pounds of fat? If you've only gained 1lb in the past year, you're obviously NOT eating "plenty". I'm not doggin' on you, just pointing out the obvious. I know how hard it is to eat a ton of food, going from 4k-6k calories last summer I felt like I was gonna exlode, constantly. Always bloated, always feeling full and sick. But guess what, I broke from my 230lb plateau up to about 245lbs in about 2-3 months. Diet is key, even when I thought I had my diet dialed in, I found ways to tweak even more gains out of it. It's a lifestyle of constant learning and aquiring knowledge of what works best for us.

I probably should have been a little more specific in my first post. Here's my history I was referring to:

Nov 2005 - May 2006: Bulked on 4500 cals/day. Went from 209-233 in that time span. Based on the before/after pics, I gained a ton of fat. Clearly 4500 is too much for me.

May 2006 - October 2006: Cut very slowly down to about 200. Obviously I'm not gaining any muscle here.

October 2006 - December 2006: Just maintained for a bit because school was getting crazy.

January 2007 - Present: I am attempting a slow bulk on 4000 calories per day. Weight has gone from 200 - 206 in that timeframe, although based on my subjective mirror analysis, none of that has been muscle.

I track my diet EVERY day on fitday. Trust me, I know how to eat. If you have any advice besides AAS, I'm all ears.

Sorry Jordan I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I just had some similar questions and thought now would be a good time to ask them. I can take it to PM if it bothers you.

[Nosaj]

Got a fitday link? I'd like to take a look.

[SpecialK]

Got a fitday link? I'd like to take a look.

Sure:

http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=Hudson4351

[Nosaj]

It doesn't seem like you've given yourself enough time to bulk again. You bulked successfully on 4500 calories, maybe a bit too fast for your liking, but you were gaining weight. Why wouldn't it work again this time, on a slow bulk? You say you feel like the last 6lbs weren't muscle, but you're just starting to bulk, your going to fill out with more carbs, but make the most of all these extra calories. And you said "besides AAS..." so I guess I'm wondering, why haven't you started already? :evillaugh

[SpecialK]

It doesn't seem like you've given yourself enough time to bulk again. You bulked successfully on 4500 calories, maybe a bit too fast for your liking, but you were gaining weight. Why wouldn't it work again this time, on a slow bulk? You say you feel like the last 6lbs weren't muscle, but you're just starting to bulk, your going to fill out with more carbs, but make the most of all these extra calories. And you said "besides AAS..." so I guess I'm wondering, why haven't you started already? :evillaugh

I was gaining "weight", but it seemed like the majority of that was fat. I weigh 200 lbs. now, and honestly I don't think I look much different from the first time I hit 200 lbs. back towards the end of 2004. My strength has gone up a fair amount since then, but I don't really feel like I've added much LBM.

And you are right about the clean bulk - the weight I have gained now is probably due to water, carbs, food, etc. and not fat or muscle, so it's probably too early for me to pass judgement on it.

Nevertheless, I really feel as though my natural gains will be agonizingly slow from here on out. I've already had the basics down for some time now. It's not like tweaking things like meal timing, macronutrient ratios for a given meal, rest time, rep ranges, etc. is going to suddenly give me a new explosion of growth.

Honestly the only reason I haven't tried them already is because I fear the legal consequences.

[RBB]

I was gaining "weight", but it seemed like the majority of that was fat. I weigh 200 lbs. now, and honestly I don't think I look much different from the first time I hit 200 lbs. back towards the end of 2004. My strength has gone up a fair amount since then, but I don't really feel like I've added much LBM.

And you are right about the clean bulk - the weight I have gained now is probably due to water, carbs, food, etc. and not fat or muscle, so it's probably too early for me to pass judgement on it.

Nevertheless, I really feel as though my natural gains will be agonizingly slow from here on out. I've already had the basics down for some time now. It's not like tweaking things like meal timing, macronutrient ratios for a given meal, rest time, rep ranges, etc. is going to suddenly give me a new explosion of growth.

Honestly the only reason I haven't tried them already is because I fear the legal consequences.

if you're certain your diet is in order then its probably time for you to think about AAS. i was in a similar situation. i could still make natural gains, but the ratio of fat to muscle i put on when gaining was unfavorable to say the least. the kind of results i was after were coming too slow. there's no point in bulking when you're at the point where most of the weight you're putting on is fat. that's when you know its time to consider your other options.

[Sidior]

I was gaining "weight", but it seemed like the majority of that was fat. I weigh 200 lbs. now, and honestly I don't think I look much different from the first time I hit 200 lbs. back towards the end of 2004. My strength has gone up a fair amount since then, but I don't really feel like I've added much LBM.

And you are right about the clean bulk - the weight I have gained now is probably due to water, carbs, food, etc. and not fat or muscle, so it's probably too early for me to pass judgement on it.

Nevertheless, I really feel as though my natural gains will be agonizingly slow from here on out. I've already had the basics down for some time now. It's not like tweaking things like meal timing, macronutrient ratios for a given meal, rest time, rep ranges, etc. is going to suddenly give me a new explosion of growth.

Honestly the only reason I haven't tried them already is because I fear the legal consequences.

I havent checked your journal recently but are you still following the same routine? I know 99% of the time gains are based around diet issues, but have you actually tried changing your routine any way at all over the past few years?

[SDS]

I'm glad you asked this Jordan. I've been considering the same things myself, but after reading this I'm pretty sure I couldn't increase my food intake the required amount. It's tough for me to get my daily minimums as it is, so I think I'll wait till I can re-organize my time to allow for more cooking/eating.

[SpecialK]

if you're certain your diet is in order then its probably time for you to think about AAS. i was in a similar situation. i could still make natural gains, but the ratio of fat to muscle i put on when gaining was unfavorable to say the least. the kind of results i was after were coming too slow. there's no point in bulking when you're at the point where most of the weight you're putting on is fat. that's when you know its time to consider your other options.

Feel free to take a look at my Fitday and/or journal and give any comments. Any other advice would be appreciated. I posted a link to my fitday a few posts up.

[SpecialK]

I havent checked your journal recently but are you still following the same routine? I know 99% of the time gains are based around diet issues, but have you actually tried changing your routine any way at all over the past few years?

I've swapped some lifts in and out, changed exercise groupings a bit and shuffled the days around, but my base routine is still AST's Max-OT.

[Nosaj]

I've swapped some lifts in and out, changed exercise groupings a bit and shuffled the days around, but my base routine is still AST's Max-OT.

Switching routines might do you a world of benefit. I've put almost .5" on my arms in the past month due to switching in some new exercises that I used to never do. I was doing a routine based off of BGB and I was doing only two direct arm movements for each muscle a week, and the same one's every week. I've added an "arm" day, as lame as that was to me at first, but I've already noticed huge gains. Skull crushers and BB curls have done wonders for me, and made me sore as hell the first two times around. Your muscles definitely get used to a routine, you have to swap it up to promote growth, that's a given. In my opinion, no routine should be used for more than 2-3 months, after that, it's time to switch it up. (Obviously you still workout similar muscle groups, back, chest, etc. but you use new exercises, different rep schemes, pyramids, rotations, etc.)

[Sidior]

I've swapped some lifts in and out, changed exercise groupings a bit and shuffled the days around, but my base routine is still AST's Max-OT.

Why not give your routine a drastic overhaul before you decide gains are not possible natty?

[Jordanbcool]

No offense but I never understood why people had a hard time eating enough calories.....unless you're eating more then 6k. I always got 4k rather easily. They have protein shakes, mcdonalds and all kinds ways to get some extra cals. Hell even this crap ass protein bars usually come around 350 calories a piece. A jar of peanut butter...whole eggs...

Meh. I guess its much harder though for ectomorphs and people that have to eat a ton more then 4k especially if you're eating clean.

[McIrish]

Sure:

http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJournals.html?Owner=Hudson4351

Why are your fats so low, K? Ever consider that you might have better partitioning issues if you altered the macronutrient breakdown of your food? I'm not saying that is a given, but you havne't tried it, have you? Try carb-cycling (T-Nation does a good explanation of this) and upping those fats. Hell, I get almost double the fats you do and I'm only eating 3/4 of what you are. Olive oil ftw. ;)

[SpecialK]

Why are your fats so low, K? Ever consider that you might have better partitioning issues if you altered the macronutrient breakdown of your food? I'm not saying that is a given, but you havne't tried it, have you? Try carb-cycling (T-Nation does a good explanation of this) and upping those fats. Hell, I get almost double the fats you do and I'm only eating 3/4 of what you are. Olive oil ftw. ;)

0.5g fat/ lb. LBM is pretty much the standard advice around here, which I am definitely getting. You're telling me you get 160+ grams of fat per day?

Yes I am familiar with carb cycling, and it's not going to lead to any dramatic changes.

Like I said before, I think that provided you get enough total calories and your macro breakdown is decent, further tweaking is going to have very minimal effects on the muscle building process.

Besides, I was always meeting the 0.5g fat/lb LBM total before, and no trouble putting on muscle then.

[SpecialK]

Why not give your routine a drastic overhaul before you decide gains are not possible natty?

What do you and Nosaj consider a "drastic overhaul"? I already do all of the basics - squat, bench, deadlift, overhead press, rows, chins, and curls are all staples of my routine. I also rotate in other stuff like DB pressing, dips, etc. It's not like there are any worthless isolation lifts present in my routine. I feel it's straight to the point.

I guess there is other stuff out there like periodization, but do you really think changing a few reps here and there is going to make a dramatic difference? I mean there are an infinite number of possible workouts if you consider every possible parameter you could vary.

[Beast]

I guess there is other stuff out there like periodization, but do you really think changing a few reps here and there is going to make a dramatic difference? I mean there are an infinite number of possible workouts if you consider every possible parameter you could vary.
I think it would be worth trying. Maybe try BGB or something. I just started doing a workout that hits each bodypart 3 times per week, since I've never worked a bodypart more than twice per week for as long as I have lifted. You never know what will happen if you give your body a new stimulus. Like you said, there is an infinite number of workouts you can do... more of a reason to switch it up and try new things.

[Jordanbcool]

What do you and Nosaj consider a "drastic overhaul"? I already do all of the basics - squat, bench, deadlift, overhead press, rows, chins, and curls are all staples of my routine. I also rotate in other stuff like DB pressing, dips, etc. It's not like there are any worthless isolation lifts present in my routine. I feel it's straight to the point.

I guess there is other stuff out there like periodization, but do you really think changing a few reps here and there is going to make a dramatic difference? I mean there are an infinite number of possible workouts if you consider every possible parameter you could vary.

If its this hard putting on muscle I would also consider taking AAS if I were you. Unless you feel further tweaking will help. The only reason people use AAS is because eventually you'll run into a brick wall muscle building. You used to gain 15lbs of muscle and 5lbs of fat. Then it goes to 10lbs of muscle 10lbs of fat....before you know it. You're gaining 15lbs of fat for 5-6lbs of muscle. Most people then consider using for simple efficiency. Instead of taking 10 years of endless cuts and bulks you could consider using....

Not to say that using doesn't have its downfall (s). I'm just trying to give some examples when people decide to actually give it a shot.

[Nosaj]

What do you and Nosaj consider a "drastic overhaul"? I already do all of the basics - squat, bench, deadlift, overhead press, rows, chins, and curls are all staples of my routine. I also rotate in other stuff like DB pressing, dips, etc. It's not like there are any worthless isolation lifts present in my routine. I feel it's straight to the point.

I guess there is other stuff out there like periodization, but do you really think changing a few reps here and there is going to make a dramatic difference? I mean there are an infinite number of possible workouts if you consider every possible parameter you could vary.

The bottom line is this, what you're doing isin't resulting in much gains, if any, according to you. Your diet is good, and you're lifts are strong. That being said, you could simply take AAS, continue doing what you're doing, and make gains. Test will force you into a constant anabolic state and increase the rate at which you put on muscle and the rate at which your muscle recovers.

However, since you're natural atm, and you're not making gains, the answer to your question is yes, I do think changing a few reps here and there and even tweaking your diet like McIrish said will make a dramatic difference. I mean, any gains in LBM compared to none would be a dramatic difference, right?

Just because you're eating right and lifting right doesn't mean you won't ever plateau. You've obviously gone over your calorie ceiling which yielded excess fat with little to no muscle gain, so the amount of calories you can eat is not the issue. It does sound like you're resistant to the idea of change though. I know your workout and diet has worked thus far, and it looks good to me, there's no denying that. But your gains have halted, so I think when people give you advice at least hearing it with an open mind would be a good idea. Periodization and carb-cycling, upping fats, etc. is definitely something you should be looking into. Your diet has pretty much been 400g carb, 400g prot, 80g fat for a while, or at least along those macro equivalents. Why not try a trace-carb diet while keeping your cals up with fat, and then carb-cycling. Beast is right, there are an infinite number of ways you design a workout routine, and that goes for diet as well, so why not start experimenting with some of them instead of sticking with one that worked, but has failed to continue yielding results?

Just my 2 cents, in an effort to help ya out.

[method115]

EXRX has an article about Re stimulating Progress by Changing Exercises

here it is:

Re stimulating Progress by Changing Exercises (http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/ChangeWtEx.html)

[kique]

I think it would be worth trying. Maybe try BGB or something. I just started doing a workout that hits each bodypart 3 times per week, since I've never worked a bodypart more than twice per week for as long as I have lifted. You never know what will happen if you give your body a new stimulus. Like you said, there is an infinite number of workouts you can do... more of a reason to switch it up and try new things.

im with beast change ur routine and your source of proteins fats carbs and learn proper form and ull make gains man trust me

[Holto]

Well what if less efficient = so slow to the point of being unnoticeable? I eat plenty, I get enough sleep, and I train near failure every workout, yet I'd say I may have put on 1 lb. of muscle in the past year tops.

You may want to look into periodization.

[Davidelmo]

Switching routines might do you a world of benefit. I've put almost .5" on my arms in the past month due to switching in some new exercises that I used to never do. I was doing a routine based off of BGB and I was doing only two direct arm movements for each muscle a week, and the same one's every week. I've added an "arm" day, as lame as that was to me at first, but I've already noticed huge gains. Skull crushers and BB curls have done wonders for me, and made me sore as hell the first two times around. Your muscles definitely get used to a routine, you have to swap it up to promote growth, that's a given. In my opinion, no routine should be used for more than 2-3 months, after that, it's time to switch it up. (Obviously you still workout similar muscle groups, back, chest, etc. but you use new exercises, different rep schemes, pyramids, rotations, etc.)

I agree. I went with the whole "no direct arm training" philosophy and my arms are now lagging pretty badly. I've added a designated arm day now where I destroy my bis, tris and forearms. Seems to be working pretty well. I know that soreness isn't a measure of progress but I never had sore arms the next day or even a pump during the workout until I started having an arm day.

[Holto]

As much as I think Poliquin is a freak, he only has clients ditch direct arm work if they are setting big goals for bench and rows. Makes sense to me.

[method115]

I agree. I went with the whole "no direct arm training" philosophy and my arms are now lagging pretty badly. I've added a designated arm day now where I destroy my bis, tris and forearms. Seems to be working pretty well. I know that soreness isn't a measure of progress but I never had sore arms the next day or even a pump during the workout until I started having an arm day.

I don't do any direct arm work and my arms are bigger now then they have ever been my gf can't believe how big they are. I guess different things work for different people.

I just recently curled about a week ago to and I couldn't believe how much more I could curl especially after not doing any curls for over a year now. I'm convinced the direct arm work isn't necessary now. Then again it also depends on what workout you do that indirectly workout your arms. I personally do chin ups, pull ups, rows, bench press.

[SpecialK]

You may want to look into periodization.

Yeah, I have been considering that recently. Do you (or anyone else) have a particular periodization routine to recommend? I was thinking of picking up the book Starting Strength, which is supposed to do a good job of explaining the concepts of periodization and laying out some sample routines.

[Beast]

I just started this (http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm).

[HILL]

hey beast how are you finding that??

[Beast]

Honestly, I like the concept, but my lower back is getting rocked since you do squats 3 times per week along with squats and deadlifts together on one day. I might have to change it a bit.

[Holto]

Yeah, I have been considering that recently. Do you (or anyone else) have a particular periodization routine to recommend? I was thinking of picking up the book Starting Strength, which is supposed to do a good job of explaining the concepts of periodization and laying out some sample routines.

I haven't read that book, but any book that even touches on the concepts is enough for a serious bb to start implementing it.

[Jordanbcool]

hey beast how are you finding that??

Just google bill starr. I'm following that routine this summer. Can't wait for it.

[Jordanbcool]

Another question.

Would running more then one cycle my first year of using be a big no no? I'm very close to completing my goal weight (only about 20lbs away) and I was thinking of running a bulking cycle, doing PCT waiting until I normalize/calm down (go back to normal) and then if I feel up to it running a cutting cycle probably just test E (no winny or other harmful AS). Would that be out of line?

Both cycles will probably stay at 500mg/w since I could still gain on that dosage.

[jAy_Dub]

Another question.

Would running more then one cycle my first year of using be a big no no? I'm very close to completing my goal weight (only about 20lbs away) and I was thinking of running a bulking cycle, doing PCT waiting until I normalize/calm down (go back to normal) and then if I feel up to it running a cutting cycle probably just test E (no winny or other harmful AS). Would that be out of line?

Both cycles will probably stay at 500mg/w since I could still gain on that dosage.

I dont see any problems with that. Just make sure and maintain your gains enough afterwards. Dont start the cut too early.

[Jordanbcool]

I dont see any problems with that. Just make sure and maintain your gains enough afterwards. Dont start the cut too early.

I won't.

I would def. like to see 7% next summer though. I'm at 14% right now and I feel so much better then when I was at 25% this past bulk.

[Belial]

many of you said that 15-20 lb. lean gains were not uncommon for a first cycle when executed properly.

Bull****.

This is such typical meathead mythology.

I'd LOVE to see anybody who actually did this in a typical 8-12 week cycle. That would be over a pound of skeletal muscle a week. The body simply can't synthesize it that quickly.

Most guys add about 5-10 of these pounds in the form of extra glycogen (and the intramuscular water that goes along with it), and are LUCKY to gain about half a pound of actual solid muscle a week.

Yeah, some fat is also lost, so the results can look dramatic, but they're NEVER this good.

[RBB]

Another question.

Would running more then one cycle my first year of using be a big no no? I'm very close to completing my goal weight (only about 20lbs away) and I was thinking of running a bulking cycle, doing PCT waiting until I normalize/calm down (go back to normal) and then if I feel up to it running a cutting cycle probably just test E (no winny or other harmful AS). Would that be out of line?

Both cycles will probably stay at 500mg/w since I could still gain on that dosage.

just remember the general rule of thumb, jordan. time off = time on.

[RBB]

Bull****.

This is such typical meathead mythology.

I'd LOVE to see anybody who actually did this in a typical 8-12 week cycle. That would be over a pound of skeletal muscle a week. The body simply can't synthesize it that quickly.

Most guys add about 5-10 of these pounds in the form of extra glycogen (and the intramuscular water that goes along with it), and are LUCKY to gain about half a pound of actual solid muscle a week.

Yeah, some fat is also lost, so the results can look dramatic, but they're NEVER this good.

i agree. i don't know anyone who has put on 15-20lbs of lbm during a 12 week cycle.

[SpecialK]

just remember the general rule of thumb, jordan. time off = time on.

Should the time off include the time spent on PCT? (i.e., time off = cycle time + PCT time)?

[Beast]

I'd LOVE to see anybody who actually did this in a typical 8-12 week cycle.
Me too... he would have to be a true genetic freak.

[Jordanbcool]

Bull****.

This is such typical meathead mythology.

I'd LOVE to see anybody who actually did this in a typical 8-12 week cycle. That would be over a pound of skeletal muscle a week. The body simply can't synthesize it that quickly.

Most guys add about 5-10 of these pounds in the form of extra glycogen (and the intramuscular water that goes along with it), and are LUCKY to gain about half a pound of actual solid muscle a week.

Yeah, some fat is also lost, so the results can look dramatic, but they're NEVER this good.

Isn't glygocen dependant on how much muslce you build or have in the first place? I.E. I'm a bigger person so I can store more glygocen because I have more muscle to store glycogen in.

So unless you're on a carb depleted diet shouldn't you be able to retain most of your glycogen which is technically LBM? Unless of course PCT doesnt go well and you lose a bunch of it (muscle).

Anyways good point BTW. I think I was getting confused with LBM and total weight. So I guess my orignial plan of 10lb mostly LBM is a resonable expectation.

[Jordanbcool]

just remember the general rule of thumb, jordan. time off = time on.

Ok, good advice too. But like specialK said. Does that include PCT or simply while you're actually running the cycle. (so after running PCT then I'd take off 10-12 weeks before starting anew?).

[RBB]

Ok, good advice too. But like specialK said. Does that include PCT or simply while you're actually running the cycle. (so after running PCT then I'd take off 10-12 weeks before starting anew?).

i guess its debatable. imo, PCT is time off.

[Jordanbcool]

i guess its debatable. imo, PCT is time off.

Ok. Thanks for the advice.

[WillKuenzel]

I consider time off to start a few weeks after PCT. Like RBB said though, it's debatable. I've broken that standard a few times and if I don't follow the mantra of time on = time off then I do time off equivalent to the adjacent cycles.

[RBB]

I consider time off to start a few weeks after PCT.
that's probably the best way to approach it. a little extra time off isn't going to hurt anyone. i limit myself to one cycle a year, but i extend to 16 weeks.

[Jordanbcool]

that's probably the best way to approach it. a little extra time off isn't going to hurt anyone. i limit myself to one cycle a year, but i extend to 16 weeks.

I think it depends how I feel when the time comes but I think most people won't go past 2 unless they are heavy users or competing.

[WillKuenzel]

2 is the most I've done in a year and I competed that year. But then after that I've spent about a year and a half or so off.

[SpecialK]

Isn't glygocen dependant on how much muslce you build or have in the first place? I.E. I'm a bigger person so I can store more glygocen because I have more muscle to store glycogen in.

So unless you're on a carb depleted diet shouldn't you be able to retain most of your glycogen which is technically LBM? Unless of course PCT doesnt go well and you lose a bunch of it (muscle).

Anyways good point BTW. I think I was getting confused with LBM and total weight. So I guess my orignial plan of 10lb mostly LBM is a resonable expectation.

I don't think you could retain the glycogen. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't steroids increase aldosterone production, which is what causes the increased water/glycogen retention? Take away the steroid, and the aldosterone will drop, causing you to lose the glycogen.

[Jordanbcool]

I don't think you could retain the glycogen. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't steroids increase aldosterone production, which is what causes the increased water/glycogen retention? Take away the steroid, and the aldosterone will drop, causing you to lose the glycogen.

I was thinking that some would drop but that you would still keep most of it if your diet and training was sufficient.

[SpecialK]

I was thinking that some would drop but that you would still keep most of it if your diet and training was sufficient.

I just don't think diet and training will sustain artificially high aldosterone levels. Someone correct me if I'm off here.

[SpecialK]

Bull****.

This is such typical meathead mythology.

I'd LOVE to see anybody who actually did this in a typical 8-12 week cycle. That would be over a pound of skeletal muscle a week. The body simply can't synthesize it that quickly.

Most guys add about 5-10 of these pounds in the form of extra glycogen (and the intramuscular water that goes along with it), and are LUCKY to gain about half a pound of actual solid muscle a week.

Yeah, some fat is also lost, so the results can look dramatic, but they're NEVER this good.

So does that mean the thread posted here entitled "Gain 15 lbs. in one month" is all BS:

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=69605

What scientific proof do you have for the limit on how much skeletal muscle can be synthesized in a week? Your explanation sounds reasonable, I'm just wondering if there's actually any proof of it out there.

[jAy_Dub]

So does that mean the thread posted here entitled "Gain 15 lbs. in one month" is all BS:

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?t=69605

What scientific proof do you have for the limit on how much skeletal muscle can be synthesized in a week? Your explanation sounds reasonable, I'm just wondering if there's actually any proof of it out there.

Chris' article was referring to 15 lbs of mass, not muscle. There is no way someone could put on 15 lbs of pure muscle in one month naturally.

[Beast]

That particular thread has been argued to death. Let's not get into it again.

[Jordanbcool]

Not to bring up my old thread but to clear things up..Chris was specifically talking about new weightlifters/bodybuilders. I.E. Anyone who hasn't touched weights before, atleast properly. With the right nutrition, a TON of calories, hard training etc. New lifters can add on 15lb of mostly muscle mass quite easily. I've seen kids do that while they were still making dumb errors. If you've never lifted before, its a totally new stimulus for your body and it reacts appropriately.

I gained 10lbs muscle easily the first month I started actually lifting. Now, it takes me an entire bulk to put on that much. And I usually have to get really fat to do it. Which is the main reason I will probably run a cycle this fall.

[Beast]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't steroids increase aldosterone production, which is what causes the increased water/glycogen retention? Take away the steroid, and the aldosterone will drop, causing you to lose the glycogen.
Cool, I didn't know that.

I haven't been taught about a connection between aldo and glycogen.