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plornive
02-25-2002, 07:02 PM
I think that it is clear to most people that after a refeed, metabolism increases, fat-burning increases, energy increases, and appetite decreases. What is not clear to me nor others is how to make the benefits outweigh the costs of refeeds.

If I count calories, should I factor the refeed completely into my caloric count? Or should I somehow take into account the increase in metabolism?

I am going to start cutting in about 2.5 months after I recover from some jaw surgery, and I want to try an isocaloric diet with refeeds. If I start at 10% bf, how often should I refeed? If I weigh 155, and eat 2400 calories to maintain (including workouts), how many calories below maintenance should I go per day? How many above maintenance for the entire refeed? Need there be a net caloric deficit, or is part of the refeed negated by the increase in metabolism or lack of absorption?

Should I do very high volume workouts the few days before each refeed to deplete glycogen and use vanadyl sulfate during the refeed?

Thanks for any advice from anyone.

irish mike
02-27-2002, 02:04 AM
I"ve been doing a ckd since new years and i try to get 50 grams of carbs every two hours on my carb up.a guy i work with is on the same diet and we both noticed that when we go overboard on our carb up(pig out) that the following week the fat just melts off.i think that's one of the reasons the ckd is so effective it manipulates your metabolism.i'm not sure id wanna do it every carb up but who knows it might be the way to go.as far as how often to refeed i try to stay in ketosis for 7 days at a time.since it takes me 2 days to get in i'm on a 9 day cycle.for glycogen depletion id say stay on your regular workout schedule and throw in a high rep full body workout right before(1 hour)your carb up

MonStar1023
02-27-2002, 06:26 AM
plornive-
I would recommend checking out Blood&Iron's online journal over in the Online Journals Board. He keeps a really detailed journal using a diet called a Cyclical Isocaloric Diet. He incorporates refeeds and tracks all of his protein, carbs, fat, and calories in his journal. Basically with refeeds I would recommend consuming a surplus of calories (maybe 30-40% higher than your maintenance amount), the majority of the calories coming from low-fat, carbohydrate sources.

:cool::cool:

Par Deus
02-27-2002, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by plornive
Need there be a net caloric deficit, or is part of the refeed negated by the increase in metabolism or lack of absorption?

Should I do very high volume workouts the few days before each refeed to deplete glycogen and use vanadyl sulfate during the refeed?



Should be a net deficit, but there will be a lot of calories that are oxidized without accompanying ATP production (i.e. they will be wasted).

Don't necessarily need high volume workouts, but you should minimize muscle damage (usually from eccentric portion of the movement) as it can decrease insulin sensitivity in the muscle.

Wizard
02-27-2002, 09:55 AM
You don't need to use vanadyl to maximize the stored glycogen levels. You need really high doses to do that and it's known that in high doses it is toxic.The only thing that it can improve is your appearance (vascularity)

In refeed days, I usually do a low volume-high reps full body workout in the morning and my caloric intake is 20% above maintainance levels based on a 70% carbs-15% protein-10% fat ratio.It really works well.

Note that you get better results when you're following a cutting diet where you have to be in caloric deficit for 3-4 days and then have a refeed day.

plornive
02-27-2002, 08:06 PM
Thanks for all of the replies - they were very helpful!

I was debating whether to do a CKD or a CID. I may do a CID, then a CKD, then a CID again to ease the carbohydrate transitions. I will do this in a few months. I'll check out Blood&Iron's journal. I also just ordered Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet" book. I will post a new thread when I start this diet. I will also make sure I don't do slow negatives on my depletions workouts.

Check this out: When I was on the CKD long ago, I counted the total number of repetitions during one final depletion workout. I did a total of 6 full-body circuits, and a total of 1080 repetitions! This probably didn't help me, but was quite thrilling.

I think I was overdoing the carb-ups, though. Dan Duchaine seemed to overestimate peoples' ability to absorb carbs into the muscles.

One other question:
Why does everyone badmouth Vanadyl, when I find that it works. I mean, if I take it and don't have my post-workout carbs for a while, my blood glucose definitely goes down. So if it speeds up the job and lowers blood sugar, it is obviously working, right? Or is that not a good indicator?