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View Full Version : Couple of diet questions



Howard 9
05-19-2007, 12:32 PM
1. Is it true you want less than 10g of fat in your PWO shake?
2. When cutting do you want no sugar in your diet?

Mr. D
05-19-2007, 12:48 PM
1)Most people here try to limit fat in their pre and post workout windows. Carb and protein absorption is slowed down by fat. I would say for your immediate PWO shake I would try to keep fat as low as possible, and in your PPWO meal, a little fat there wont be too much of a problematic. Then again nutrient timing is really only important when you have you perfected the rest of your diet overall.

2)Depends on what you mean by sugar?If you mean table sugar (sucrose), then sure, limit it. Post Workout, Dextrose(glucose) and whey is a preferred drink. Fructose in the morning to refill liver glycogen is also a good idea and some pre-workout isnt detrimental. Read Get Built, i think issue 2 on the matter of sugars.

Howard 9
05-19-2007, 01:41 PM
1)Most people here try to limit fat in their pre and post workout windows. Carb and protein absorption is slowed down by fat. I would say for your immediate PWO shake I would try to keep fat as low as possible, and in your PPWO meal, a little fat there wont be too much of a problematic. Then again nutrient timing is really only important when you have you perfected the rest of your diet overall.

2)Depends on what you mean by sugar?If you mean table sugar (sucrose), then sure, limit it. Post Workout, Dextrose(glucose) and whey is a preferred drink. Fructose in the morning to refill liver glycogen is also a good idea and some pre-workout isnt detrimental. Read Get Built, i think issue 2 on the matter of sugars.
Thanks for the info, yeah for number 2 I had read something about dieting, as I am thinking of slightly cutting. The author said...


Want to cut something out of your diet? Start with sugar in all of its various forms. Get sugar down to zero and you will get your glucose levels in a healthy range to induce fat loss.

The only time sugar is beneficial is after a workout to help get the protein to the worked muscles. However, if you are fat skip sugar all together. Get sugar down to zero for ten days and let me know what happens.

I obviously assmued sugars from candy and stuff would be bad like you said, but I always heard people talking about dextrose. And I believe has fruit has a natural type sugar too. I will read Built's article though, thanks.

Built
05-19-2007, 01:44 PM
Hmmm. Which author was that?

Fructose, sucrose, all are natural sugars. They do different things.

Howard 9
05-19-2007, 03:45 PM
Hmmm. Which author was that?

Fructose, sucrose, all are natural sugars. They do different things.

An author on bodybuilding.com.

ADT
05-19-2007, 04:04 PM
An author on bodybuilding.com.

:rolleyes:

Hmm... No comment. (They're not all bad I guess. I do hope you are talking about a "real" article and not a posting in a thread somewhere.)

Who knows, some of us may have articles on that site under another name. (Err, ahem, where was I...)

Try this article found in the old, dusty depths of the WBB library of archives:

"The Carbohydrate Manifesto Part I"
by Anthony Ricciuto

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=222

I hope this helps to explain things for you.

Now, how about some "Reps" please. ;)

Best,
ADT

Con
05-19-2007, 05:15 PM
Some fructose pre(or even post) workout can be beneficial. I believe it can speed the rate of the glyogen getting into the muscles. A small apple should be about right for that.

Howard 9
05-19-2007, 06:00 PM
:rolleyes:

Hmm... No comment. (They're not all bad I guess. I do hope you are talking about a "real" article and not a posting in a thread somewhere.)

Who knows, some of us may have articles on that site under another name. (Err, ahem, where was I...)

Try this article found in the old, dusty depths of the WBB library of archives:

"The Carbohydrate Manifesto Part I"
by Anthony Ricciuto

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=222

I hope this helps to explain things for you.

Now, how about some "Reps" please. ;)

Best,
ADT
Yea it was a real article...
http://bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler100.htm

i rep ya if i could lol

Built
05-19-2007, 06:09 PM
Some fructose pre(or even post) workout can be beneficial. I believe it can speed the rate of the glyogen getting into the muscles. A small apple should be about right for that.


Hmmm... that doesn't sound right. Are you perhaps thinking of before a depletion workout? 'Cause that's a different animal entirely.

Con
05-19-2007, 07:24 PM
Let me find it(might take a while) since its not my words(oviously). Lyle said it quite a few times on his board and i will go look for it in a few.

Built
05-19-2007, 07:26 PM
kk. I'm willing to bet it has to do with depletion. It sounded like teh Lyle/depletion stuff.

Con
05-19-2007, 07:36 PM
two things

1. liver glycogen is a major determinant of the body's overall anabolic status, refilling it post-workout helps with anabolism

2. some ingested glucose can actually be used by the liver, as I recall, adding some fructose helps get glucose through the liver faster

Lyle


I hate the words glycogen, glucose, and whatnot becuase im still not exactly sure what they mean. But I think I had the jist of what lyle said when I said it would speed something up.

Built
05-19-2007, 07:47 PM
Okay, off the top of my head. I THINK I have this right, somebody correct me if I'm off:

Glycogen = muscle (or liver) starch.
Glucose = what it breaks down into. Fuel for anaerobic activity (after ATP/CP)

Unless you're on a very low-carb diet, your liver will not be depleted enough for this to matter. Post workout, you want an insulin response to blunt cortisol. Glucose will do a better job of this. Preworkout, glucose will spare muscle glycogen, so you'll have a little more juice for your workout.

Con
05-19-2007, 08:00 PM
Im not sure, but I thought that liver glycogen got somewhat depleted when dieting?

This is basically the limit of my usefulness, I can only search through old threads. Hopefully someone else will post some good info.

Built
05-19-2007, 08:02 PM
It can, if your carbs are low. Which they often are on a cut - particularly if you try to keep your protein and fat up.

You might very well have a point here Con. I'm no expert in this stuff either. I just read a lot. You do too, from the sound of it.

Con
05-19-2007, 08:24 PM
Thanks. Im trying.

The threads I was getting all this from was concerning fruit around workouts.

The basic consensus was that a small amount(probably should have emphasized that more) of fructose with the glucose to replenish glycogen, and use the fructose to speed things up a tad.

Anyway, I think the poster got some good answers. Overall, maintain that deficit and you should fine.

Built
05-19-2007, 08:30 PM
I can't see that having a little fruit will do you any harm pre and post workout. I usually have a chunk of apple with my oats and cc pre workout, sometimes a little jam on my sweet potato post (don't knock it until you've tried it). Hasn't killed me yet...

ddegroff
05-20-2007, 06:18 PM
The basic consensus was that a small amount(probably should have emphasized that more) of fructose with the glucose to replenish glycogen, and use the fructose to speed things up a tad.

Instead of the body using the glucose for liver glycogen, it can use the fructose. Then the glucose can fill muscle glycogen "faster".

That's how I understand it.

OP: On a cut one would want to keep all carbohydrates on the lower side. Or atleast the sources should be coming from complex carbs. But this is more for appetite control. Some dex pre/post would be fine. I prefer ground oats personally.

Built
05-20-2007, 06:28 PM
ddegroff - THANK you. That makes perfect sense.

:)

ddegroff
05-20-2007, 06:32 PM
Built -No prob.

Been reading a lot over at bodyrecomp recently. Plus reading Lyle's books.

The whole fructose metabolism thing seems to come up a lot.

Built
05-20-2007, 06:36 PM
I knew there was something to it, but couldn't remember how it went and was WAY too lazy to look it up myself.

Thank you for enabling my continuing procrastination.

;)

ddegroff
05-20-2007, 06:50 PM
LOL no big deal.

I know how it goes, I'm the king of procrastination.

Built
05-20-2007, 06:56 PM
Oh - then you'll appreciate this Pubmed citation: (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17201571&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum)

"Continued research into procrastination should not be delayed, especially because its prevalence appears to be growing."

ddegroff
05-20-2007, 10:48 PM
Oh - then you'll appreciate this Pubmed citation: (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17201571&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum)

"Continued research into procrastination should not be delayed, especially because its prevalence appears to be growing."

Just got to it. LOL

I would have never thought they would actually study this.

Built
05-20-2007, 10:51 PM
Heh. And it only took you four hours. :windup: ;)

ddegroff
05-20-2007, 11:26 PM
Yeah well I went to a movie inbetween, lol. :D

So I guess no one wants to talk about sugar anymore.

Con
05-21-2007, 06:21 AM
Instead of the body using the glucose for liver glycogen, it can use the fructose. Then the glucose can fill muscle glycogen "faster".

That's how I understand it.

OP: On a cut one would want to keep all carbohydrates on the lower side. Or atleast the sources should be coming from complex carbs. But this is more for appetite control. Some dex pre/post would be fine. I prefer ground oats personally.


Hmm, im reading over there too ddeg, and the explanation is a bit different. If you look at my post where i stole lyles words, he says that the liver still uses some glycogen and the fructose will only help to speed that up.

greekboy80
05-21-2007, 08:09 AM
I was under the assumption that yor body loses no weight untill the liver is fully depleted. I have read that the body uses all ness. fuel anywhere and that fat loss is the last place it looks and it only uses fat stores when there is nothing else left.....

Anyone else?

ddegroff
05-21-2007, 05:57 PM
Hmm, im reading over there too ddeg, and the explanation is a bit different. If you look at my post where i stole lyles words, he says that the liver still uses some glycogen and the fructose will only help to speed that up.

The way I read it. The qoute says it can use some glucose (not glycogen) to refill the liver's glycogen but if you have fructose available the liver will use that to fill the liver's glycogen. The fructose doesn't actually move the glucose through, just it being available allows glucose to go through quicker. It allows the glucose to move on to bigger and better things (refilling muscle glycogen etc.)

We are saying the same thing. :cool:

Maybe if you posted more than just those two points or where you are reading this, we could come to more of a conclusion.

ddegroff
05-21-2007, 05:59 PM
I was under the assumption that yor body loses no weight untill the liver is fully depleted. I have read that the body uses all ness. fuel anywhere and that fat loss is the last place it looks and it only uses fat stores when there is nothing else left.....

Anyone else?

The body prefers to use glucose for all energy needs. Until there is just enough glycogen to feed the brain. At that point the body will use other sources.

If the liver glycogen needed to be fully empty before we lose weight, then a simple caloric deficit wouldn't do the trick.

Con
05-21-2007, 06:35 PM
We are saying the same thing. :cool:

Cool :)



Maybe if you posted more than just those two points or where you are reading this, we could come to more of a conclusion.

One thread (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17328&highlight=fructose)


There are more if you are interested. Just search for fructose.

ddegroff
05-21-2007, 07:02 PM
Cool :)



One thread (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17328&highlight=fructose)


There are more if you are interested. Just search for fructose.

I'm good. I've read a lot about Fructose for this exact reason.

greekboy80
05-22-2007, 07:59 AM
If the liver glycogen needed to be fully empty before we lose weight, then a simple caloric deficit wouldn't do the trick.

Why? Can you elaborate? I didn't think that the liver stored THAT much calories....Why would your body burn stored fat if there are calories able to be used available?

ddegroff
05-22-2007, 10:16 AM
Why? Can you elaborate? I didn't think that the liver stored THAT much calories....Why would your body burn stored fat if there are calories able to be used available?

It stores ~800 cals (or something close that) of glycogen. Like you said not much. My point is the body has a set point when it reserves the rest of the glycogen for the brain. Because of this the body turns to fat for fuel. The brain can run on ketones but the body would prefer not too.