Arginine...whats the deal?

[Freakish]

i know Arginine is a naturally occuring amino acid, but what are the pluses/minuses in taking it in supplement pill/powder form?

thanks yall.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

It will give you a pump, which won't help you progress, but it might motivate you. It might also give you erections.

[CleverName]

I've read that increases the likelihood of getting cold sores :windup:

[Freakish]

well thats no good, but i believe cold sores are a herpes virus, which is not naturally occurring and needs to be contracted...so unless arginine alters immunity in some way, unless you already got em, i dont think it makes you get em.

[jAy_Dub]

Arginine helps me power through my workouts. Most people on this board will only say bad things about it, but I've always thought it had its benefits. And on a plus side, its only like $15 for a big bottle.

[skeeterx15]

i know Arginine is a naturally occuring amino acid, but what are the pluses/minuses in taking it in supplement pill/powder form?

thanks yall.

I take 2000 mg of L-Arginine and 400mg of caffeine before every workout. Gives me a pump, just make you have some carbs to help it sorb. And when i'm done with this bottle of Arg, I plan on buying the pills that have both Arginine and Ornidine for an added pump. :thumbup:

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Arginine helps me power through my workouts. Most people on this board will only say bad things about it, but I've always thought it had its benefits. And on a plus side, its only like $15 for a big bottle.Are you taking it alone or with a stack?

[jAy_Dub]

I'm also taking Nitor. Nitor gives me the energy, while the arginine gives me a nice pump.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Then how does the arginine "power you through your workouts"?

[jAy_Dub]

Then how does the arginine "power you through your workouts"?

"Helps" is a key word that you conveniently left out. This argument has been beat to death on these boards. It's this simple, I have better workouts when I take arginine compared to when I dont. I enjoy the pump it gives me. Maybe its all in my head, maybe not. I dont know and I dont give a ****.

[sCaRz*Of*PaiN]

Like I said, the pump can be very motivating. When I take that stuff, veins are popping out everywhere. It's crazy.

[Unreal]

I've been taking it preworkout for about 2 weeks now. So far I say a waste of money.

[The Champion]

Well, gentlemen, lets first define "pump"

From my understanding a pump is the swelling of muscles due to increased blood flow. If arginine cause increased blood flow would that not aid in nutrient delivery to muscles? If that is the case I would argue that arginine does help.

[Built]

There's a ton of stuff on herpes and the balance between arginine and lysine. Lysine appears to inhibit the virus somewhat, where arginine can trigger an outbreak.

[Belial]

If arginine cause increased blood flow would that not aid in nutrient delivery to muscles? If that is the case I would argue that arginine does help.


ARGH.


No. It's like saying a wider highway will increase the rate that trucks can unload goods at the grocery store.

Totally nonsensical. Nutrient delivery to the area isn't the problem. It's rate of nutrient uptake and the amount of nutrients it can process that matters.


Now for aerobic activity, that may be a different story.

[Built]

ARGH.


No. It's like saying a wider highway will increase the rate that trucks can unload goods at the grocery store.

Totally nonsensical. Nutrient delivery to the area isn't the problem. It's rate of nutrient uptake and the amount of nutrients it can process that matters.


Now for aerobic activity, that may be a different story.


I'm still looking into this. I think I may just bite the bullet and try it one of these days before cardio.

[skeeterx15]

There's a ton of stuff on herpes and the balance between arginine and lysine. Lysine appears to inhibit the virus somewhat, where arginine can trigger an outbreak.



That's really good to know, thanks.

[nddillon]

I take 2000 mg of L-Arginine and 400mg of caffeine before every workout. Gives me a pump, just make you have some carbs to help it sorb. And when i'm done with this bottle of Arg, I plan on buying the pills that have both Arginine and Ornidine for an added pump. :thumbup:

I believe those were the actives in HeightMAX...just thought you'd like to know

[IronKidd]

I take 2000 mg of L-Arginine and 400mg of caffeine before every workout. Gives me a pump, just make you have some carbs to help it sorb. And when i'm done with this bottle of Arg, I plan on buying the pills that have both Arginine and Ornidine for an added pump. :thumbup:

Is that pretty much homemade n.o xplode or what? Or at least the cheap way to get the same effect?

[The Champion]

ARGH.


No. It's like saying a wider highway will increase the rate that trucks can unload goods at the grocery store.

Totally nonsensical. Nutrient delivery to the area isn't the problem. It's rate of nutrient uptake and the amount of nutrients it can process that matters.


Now for aerobic activity, that may be a different story.

Well, if it helps aerobic activity, would it not help overall endurance during a workout? I'm not talking about being able to put up more reps or what not, but being able to stay in the gym focused longer before succumbing to exhaustion.

[skeeterx15]

Is that pretty much homemade n.o xplode or what? Or at least the cheap way to get the same effect?

For the most part, I lack the ornidine though. Like I said though, they make caps with both in it.

Edit: make sure you give your body at least 25 minutes to absorb the arg. It's not mandatory but you'll thank me later. Since you'll feel the caffeine quicker, just take your arg/ordinine 25 minutes before workout then pop 400 mg of caffeine on your way to the gym or something.

[IronKidd]

For the most part, I lack the ornidine though. Like I said though, they make caps with both in it.

Edit: make sure you give your body at least 25 minutes to absorb the arg. It's not mandatory but you'll thank me later. Since you'll feel the caffeine quicker, just take your arg/ordinine 25 minutes before workout then pop 400 mg of caffeine on your way to the gym or something.Cool man, where do you plan on buying these pills that have both Arginine and Ornidine in them? Cheap?

[Belial]

Well, if it helps aerobic activity, would it not help overall endurance during a workout? I'm not talking about being able to put up more reps or what not, but being able to stay in the gym focused longer before succumbing to exhaustion.

If aerobic fatigue prevents you from doing your next set, you probably need to take longer rest periods.

[Freakish]

thanks guys for all the feedback

[Built]

This was from what I posted just before Christmas.
Got a weird one I posted up on a few other boards.

While I understand the stuff's pretty much useless when it comes to muscle gain, I'm wondering if we may have been barking up the wrong tree - could it be useful for fat loss during cardio?

Anybody know anything about L-Arginine and cardio? From what I've read, it does a few things that might work in concert with caffeine/Yohimbine (ie peripheral blood supply to subcutaneous adipose tissue, catecholamine release) for something like HIIT and/or stubborn fat loss.

It has been shown to get fat off obese Zucker rats <rolls eyes>, and also off obese type-II diabetics as I recall … and a dosing of 6g L-arginine with 6mg yohimbine is well tolerated for ED (fellas, maybe rub one out BEFORE that AM HIIT session!)

Some possibly relevant links:

L-arginine and insulin sensitivity Beneficial effects of a long-term oral L-arginine treatment added to a hypocaloric diet and exercise training program in obese, insulin-resistant type 2 diabetic patients. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=16772327)

Long-term oral L-arginine administration improves peripheral and hepatic insulin sensitivity in type 2 diabetic patients. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=11347747)
"3g 3x per day"

Arginine increases catecholamines at rest Effects of L-arginine supplementation on exercise metabolism. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17143054&query_hl=123&itool=pubmed_docsum)

Dietary L-arginine supplementation reduces fat mass in Zucker diabetic fatty rats. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15795423&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum)


Efficacy and safety of a novel combination of L-arginine glutamate and yohimbine hydrochloride: a new oral therapy for erectile dysfunction. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12074777&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum)


From Effects of L-arginine supplementation on exercise metabolism (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17143054&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum)

"L-arginine infusion at rest increases plasma insulin, growth hormone, glucagon, catecholamines and prolactin. Such hormonal changes affect metabolism. There has, however, been very little examination of the effect of increases in L-arginine availability during exercise. This is important to study as there is preliminary evidence that L-arginine infusion, probably via increases in nitric oxide (NO), alters skeletal-muscle metabolism during exercise. "

Sadly, the research is rather thin in this regard. What I'm mostly looking for is a reason NOT to try this.

Oral bioavailability appears to be in the range of 68+/-9 (51-87)% for a 6g dose of oral L-arginine:

L-arginine-induced vasodilation in healthy humans: pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic relationship. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9833603&query_hl=13&itool=pubmed_DocSum)

"Plasma L-arginine levels increased to (mean +/- s.e.mean) 6223+/-407 (range, 5100-7680) and 822+/-59 (527-955) micromol l(-1) after intravenous infusion of 30 g and 6 g L-arginine, respectively, and to 310+/-152 (118-1219) micromol l(-1) after oral ingestion of 6 g L-arginine. Oral bioavailability of L-arginine was 68+/-9 (51-87)%. Clearance was 544+/-24 (440-620), 894+/-164 (470-1190), and 1018+/-230 (710-2130) ml min(-1), and elimination half-life was calculated as 41.6+/-2.3 (34-55), 59.6+/-9.1 (24-98), and 79.5+/-9.3 (50-121) min, respectively, for 30 g i.v., 6 g i.v., and 6 g p.o. of L-arginine. Blood pressure and total peripheral resistance were significantly decreased after intravenous infusion of 30 g L-arginine by 4.4+/-1.4% and 10.4+/-3.6%, respectively, but were not significantly changed after oral or intravenous administration of 6 g L-arginine. L-arginine (30 g) also significantly increased urinary nitrate and cyclic GMP excretion rates by 97+/-28 and 66+/-20%, respectively. After infusion of 6 g L-arginine, urinary nitrate excretion also significantly increased, (nitrate by 47+/-12% [P<0.05], cyclic GMP by 67+/-47% [P= ns]), although to a lesser and more variable extent than after 30 g of L-arginine. The onset and the duration of the vasodilator effect of L-arginine and its effects on endogenous NO production closely corresponded to the plasma concentration half-life of L-arginine, as indicated by an equilibration half-life of 6+/-2 (3.7-8.4) min between plasma concentration and effect in pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic analysis, and the lack of hysteresis in the plasma concentration-versus-effect plot. CONCLUSIONS: The vascular effects of L-arginine are closely correlated with its plasma concentrations. These data may provide a basis for the utilization of L-arginine in cardiovascular diseases."

Thoughts?

My thoughts then were that based on the research I was poking through, we may have been barking up the wrong tree in using arginine for muscle gain. It seemed to me that it might have more benefit as an ergogenic aid for aerobic activity, at least from my cursory understanding of the processes involved.

Now, whether or not I'm similar enough to obese Zucker rats is hard to say ... but hey, it won't kill me, right?

<plans cheat meal beforehand, just in case it kills me>

[Freakish]

see Builts stomach for proof shes not at ALL similar to Zucker's test group.

[piff]

For the most part, I lack the ornidine though. Like I said though, they make caps with both in it.

Edit: make sure you give your body at least 25 minutes to absorb the arg. It's not mandatory but you'll thank me later. Since you'll feel the caffeine quicker, just take your arg/ordinine 25 minutes before workout then pop 400 mg of caffeine on your way to the gym or something.

You keep saying "ornidine"... do you mean "ornithine?"

[Belial]

Yeah, those studies are pretty damn thin. Not one of them shows any glimmer of significant metabolic changes in healthy individuals. Unless you're a type II, obese diabetic, there's nothing there that would indicate that arginine infusion is clinically significant except in cases of ED. And even then, it's only in patients with an International Index of Erectile Function (IIEF) score that's pretty bad. i.e., no clinical data shows any impact except on individuals who've already got weak links somewhere in a few key metabolic pathways.

Again, not gonna waste my money. Tribulus has data that's almost as worthless.

What I find most hilarious is that there IS an International Index of Erectile Function. I mean, how do you test that? And who came up with the scale? And how can it be international? Are there standards? How do you talk about your IIEF with a straight face?

[skeeterx15]

You keep saying "ornidine"... do you mean "ornithine?"

http://www.supplementdirect.com/?content=52&product_id=7748

There's the link for Arginine and "Ornithine" together in pill form. Not sure where my mind manifested the D from :scratch:

Edit: PS I'm embarrassed lol :D

[Built]

Belial, trust me I know. I have SEARCHED for stuff on Arginine and fat loss, cardio, insulin sensitivity ... those leaps of faith I posted were the cream of the crop.

Unless there were negative results that didn't make the publication cut (which is ENTIRELY possible, of course), I suspect it hasn't really been adequately tested for this purpose.

[Elgordo]

I may be crazy, but it helps me squeeze out extra reps and as upped by bench 10 lbs