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View Full Version : Which comes first? PWO Shake or PWO Cardio



kwidraw
05-25-2007, 01:16 PM
So I'm doing some steady state cardio after my weekend lifting days but I can't figure out if I should be taking my PWO shake in between lifting and cardio or wait until I'm done with both the lifting AND the cardio.

I imagine that taking the shake after lifting and before the cardio would put a bunch of sugar in my bloodstream that I would then tap for energy instead of fat while doing cardio. Effectively stealing the sugar I need for my insulin spike and ruining the whole point of the cardio as well.

On the flip side waiting an extra 40 minutes after I lift to take the PWO shake seems like a long time to wait for post workout dextrose and protein.

Anyone know which is better?

RedSpikeyThing
05-25-2007, 01:49 PM
I would have one between lifting and cardio and one after cardio.

On a side note, why are you doing 40 minutes of steady state cardio?

kwidraw
05-25-2007, 02:49 PM
Your idea seems like overkill. No need to down some protein and high GI carbs after steady state cardio. I do have a PWO after HIIT which I do on non lifting days.

I do post workout steady state from having read good things about it. Including on these boards.

From how to do Cardio if you must....
"For the same reason as was found by Romijn et al (25) in the HIIT summary above, SS cardio following a lifting workout may burn off FFAs mobilized by the intense lifting."

ddegroff
05-25-2007, 03:02 PM
I would have your shake before the cardio. Then a meal an hour or so later.

Bako Lifter
05-25-2007, 03:34 PM
:offtopic:

Ok, this could be a noob question, but I have my reasons for asking it.

What does PWO stand for?

Mr. D
05-25-2007, 03:52 PM
PWO = Post Work Out

RedSpikeyThing
05-26-2007, 08:50 AM
Your idea seems like overkill. No need to down some protein and high GI carbs after steady state cardio. I do have a PWO after HIIT which I do on non lifting days.


I don't think it does. After lifting I have little/no energy, so fuel up before cardio. After cardio I'm hungry, so eat a meal or drink a PWO shake :)

Noxon
05-26-2007, 09:08 AM
I think what it comes down to is just accepting that the purpose of PWO SS cardio is to cut body fat, and in doing so you are sacrificing some muscle gain from your routine. I would say you are correct in assuming that you would be wasting a lot of the benefits of the PWO shake AND the cardio by consuming it before the cardio.

If you're going to do the cardio after your lift, I say do it without the shake. Maximize the benefits of the cardio (Fat burning) and deal with the fact that you aren't going to build as much muscle. The idea here is to make your cut period as short as possible (In the big scheme of things). Eat and drink your PWO shake after you are actually done working out... Post cardio.

If you find that the routine is too extreme and you are not recovering fast enough, or seeing too much loss of muscle mass, try reducing the cardio but don't fuel yourself with new food before the cardio as that pretty much defeats the purpose!

Once you are done with your cut, start a slow bulk diet and remove the PWO SS cardio from your routine. That's what I would do, at least. Everybody is different, but it's a forum... So you get opinions. :)


After lifting I have little/no energy
Yep. And that's the whole point of PWO SS cardio. General cardio has measurable benefits, but PWO SS cardio is an extreme form of cardio exercise that should only be done on a cut. Also, you want to maximize the effects of your PWO cardio, so why fuel your body with new food beforehand? This defeats the whole purpose, because now your mobilized fat molecules are no longer the most immediate source of energy for your body. As long as your body is metabolizing food that you've eaten, it's not going to be metabolizing that fat as you want it to. This means that you essentially waste your PWO shake, and the only benefit you see from PWO SS cardio happens AFTER you have already burned off the hundreds of calories you just consumed. :(

PWO SS cardio has a singular purpose in the world of heavy weight training... Cut body fat. It's detrimental to most slow-bulk routines.

Edit: I've noticed that most of the people who posted replies before me tend to disagree and suggest drinking the PWO shake beforehand. In all fairness, my opinion is just that -- an opinion. I'm wondering if some of you guys could elaborate on why you think it's best to consume the shake before PWO SS cardio, and does anyone here disagree that PWO SS cardio should only be done on a cut?

kwidraw
05-26-2007, 10:15 AM
Thanks Noxon. An answer with an explanation like that was what I was looking for.
If anyone else has some answers that they can defend with some logic or science I'd love to hear them.

ddegroff
05-26-2007, 11:13 AM
I'm wondering if some of you guys could elaborate on why you think it's best to consume the shake before PWO SS cardio, and does anyone here disagree that PWO SS cardio should only be done on a cut?

I think this whole process is more complicated than your making it. One does the SS cardio post weight lifting to burn of the FFA in the blood. Usually this is done for ~30mins (atleast that's what I would do), more than likely most of that shake hasn't even been digested yet. I take the shake knowing that it's going to take longer than my cardio. As long your cardio is low intensity your body will use the FFA.

Like I said I think it's way to complicated to say which is better. I would try it out and see what works for you.

RedSpikeyThing
05-26-2007, 11:18 AM
Yep. And that's the whole point of PWO SS cardio. General cardio has measurable benefits, but PWO SS cardio is an extreme form of cardio exercise that should only be done on a cut. Also, you want to maximize the effects of your PWO cardio, so why fuel your body with new food beforehand? This defeats the whole purpose, because now your mobilized fat molecules are no longer the most immediate source of energy for your body. As long as your body is metabolizing food that you've eaten, it's not going to be metabolizing that fat as you want it to. This means that you essentially waste your PWO shake, and the only benefit you see from PWO SS cardio happens AFTER you have already burned off the hundreds of calories you just consumed. :(


So you're telling me that doing cardio immediately after lifting burns only bodyfat? And that it only uses energy from fat stores, not from the food you've eaten throughout the day? If that's the case, then why has HIIT been proven to target body fat and retain muscle mass?

Built
05-26-2007, 11:26 AM
PWO ss cardio on a bulk does indeed have its advantages - clearing metabolic waste for example, not to mention the improvements in mitochondrial and capillary density afforded by ss cardio. That being said, 20 minutes ought to be sufficient - 40 seem excessive, and boring.

Regarding Noxon's suggestion to eschew post-workout carbs until after the cardio, something to keep in mind is the fact that fat-burning continues even in the presence of post-workout carbohydrate:

At least one study showed that post-workout carbs/protein didn't impact FFA burning post-exercise: “in the post-exercise recovery period, muscle glycogen resynthesis has high metabolic priority, resulting in post-exercise lipid combustion despite a high carbohydrate intake”. (10 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9688636&query_hl=24&itool=pubmed_docsum))
Am J Physiol. 1998 Aug;275(2 Pt 1):E332-7.Utilization of skeletal muscle triacylglycerol during postexercise recovery in humans.Kiens B, Richter EA.

It's a good question, and it comes up a lot. That was why I addressed it in
"How to do Cardio, if you Must! (http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=292)"

Noxon, you're knowledgeable - I don't want you to just like we disagree with you to see ourselves type. Your concerns regarding pwo nutrition for cardio were valid. In the absence of peer-reviewed research to the contrary, I might have agreed with you.

kwidraw, over to you.

Bako Lifter
05-26-2007, 11:54 AM
PWO = Post Work Out

That's what I thought. But it doesn't make sense because it also stands for

Pre Work Out

Mr. D
05-26-2007, 01:22 PM
PWO ss cardio on a bulk does indeed have its advantages - clearing metabolic waste for example, not to mention the improvements in mitochondrial and capillary density afforded by ss cardio. That being said, 20 minutes ought to be sufficient - 40 seem excessive, and boring.

Regarding Noxon's suggestion to eschew post-workout carbs until after the cardio, something to keep in mind is the fact that fat-burning continues even in the presence of post-workout carbohydrate:

At least one study showed that post-workout carbs/protein didn't impact FFA burning post-exercise: “in the post-exercise recovery period, muscle glycogen resynthesis has high metabolic priority, resulting in post-exercise lipid combustion despite a high carbohydrate intake”. (10 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=9688636&query_hl=24&itool=pubmed_docsum))
Am J Physiol. 1998 Aug;275(2 Pt 1):E332-7.Utilization of skeletal muscle triacylglycerol during postexercise recovery in humans.Kiens B, Richter EA.

It's a good question, and it comes up a lot. That was why I addressed it in
"How to do Cardio, if you Must! (http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=292)"

Noxon, you're knowledgeable - I don't want you to just like we disagree with you to see ourselves type. Your concerns regarding pwo nutrition for cardio were valid. In the absence of peer-reviewed research to the contrary, I might have agreed with you.

kwidraw, over to you.

So Built, you would have the dex/whey after lifting and before the SS cardio?

Built
05-26-2007, 01:42 PM
If it's a short workout followed by a short cardio session, nah, I probably wouldn't bother. But you certainly could, and probably should if it's an extended session.

kwidraw
05-26-2007, 02:31 PM
Good enough for me. I was kinda fishing for a Built answer that had a quote from some study that I'm too lazy to wade through or even find.