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DaoineSidhe
05-31-2007, 12:23 PM
Now that my hiatus of laziness is over, I'm ready to hit the training harder than ever. My plan is to do BGB 4 days of the week with HIIT on the other 3 days. My question is can I mix up crossfit on those 3 days? Or can crossfit type exercises like these (http://mensjournal.com/healthFitness/0602/workout_20minutes.html) be also done on lifting days? My guess is that doing the latter might be overtraining, but...when in doubt, ask.

My goals for now are to cut down to 175 from 197, then focus a lot of strength training and overall conditioning.

BCorn
05-31-2007, 01:23 PM
im doing crossfit along with some weight training. i think you should just listen to your body and rest accordingly.

DaoineSidhe
05-31-2007, 02:01 PM
True about listening to ones body. I often get so carried away by trying to do everything I don't think about getting enough rest. Right now anything is an improvement to my sitting around doing nothing.

Anthony
05-31-2007, 05:16 PM
You'll run yourself into the ground with that routine.

Built
05-31-2007, 05:39 PM
Why not do HIIT on two of your lifting days and one of your rest days?

markdk86
05-31-2007, 05:43 PM
You are severly underestimating crossfit.

DaoineSidhe
05-31-2007, 11:58 PM
I appreciate any and all advice or critques.


Why not do HIIT on two of your lifting days and one of your rest days?

Good question. Honestly? I'm a complete noob when it comes to any crossfit training which makes me nervous (with respect to Anthony's sig) to add it to my BGB routine.

Just to be sure, are you suggesting adding crossfit to two of my lifting days, or as a substitute? Do HIIT or cardio on two of the off days when not lifting? Or should I just take the days off since I'd still have one other offday to do crossfit?

Right now I've a lot of fat to start burning through. The faster it's done, the faster I can start bulking clean up to my goals.

Anthony
06-01-2007, 04:59 AM
CrossFit is a combination of Olympic lifting, powerlifting, calesthenics/gymnastics, sprinting, rowing, strongman, etc. There are days where you do nothing but deadlifts and focus on strength. There are days where you do a combination of lifts/sprints and focus on conditioning. There are days where you do nothing but practise a skill.

So I'm a little confused as to how you think you can pick and choose one workout and call it a "CrossFit" workout. Think BIG picture.

BCorn
06-01-2007, 07:51 AM
Anthony, your response was that the weight training along with crossfit would run him into the ground. I have been following your journal for a while now and I notice that you do the Crossfit WOD's most days but yet still incorporate weight training (seems to be a 5x5 type program) on some days. I'm confused. Thanks for any comments.

Anthony
06-01-2007, 09:08 AM
A few points:

1) he wants to use 4 days of fairly high volume lifting, 3 days of HIIT, and 0 rest days. If he's doing those at relatively high intensity, he might last a month before his system shuts down (best case) or injury (worst case).

2) I average 5.5 days or less in the gym per week, not including regular deloads. My weight lifting days are extremely low volume (1-2 lifts using 1-3-5RM) and my metcon days average ~20 minutes. I'm not saying he should do this ... just comparing since you asked.

3) Saying "I'll do CrossFit one day and weight training the next" makes about as much sense as saying "I'll do powerlifting one day and weight training the next." You can't separate the two because they are the same thing. The CrossFit WOD (which is just an EXAMPLE of their principles) incorporates very similar amounts of max effort strength training as a typical powerlifting routine (3-5 days over a 14 day span). It also includes a lot of other stuff and sometimes that stuff is what prevents people from fully grasping the big picture.

Hope that helps clarify my original position.

DaoineSidhe
06-01-2007, 09:48 AM
Fair enough Anthony. As I stated before, I'm new to the concept of crossfit, and my knowledge of it is very limited. Perhaps my question should of been how do I fit the BGB workout into a crossfit routine. Or, if nothing else, could I incorporate the workouts listed in the link in my OP into two of my offdays when not lifting while keeping a third off day clear for rest.

Sensei
06-01-2007, 10:10 AM
I'm going to make a simple suggestion. Feel free to disregard it, but I think it's pretty good advice...

You are coming back from a layoff. Start with reasonable expectations and a very doable training schedule. Don't try to do everything all at once. Pick a few goals and work toward them. Be consistent in the gym. Develop (or redevelop) good form and training habits. After you've established decent strength and work capacity, then start looking into tweaking what you have to meet other training goals.

muscleup
06-01-2007, 10:10 AM
My advice would be to read the following:

Start Here (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/start-how.html)
What is Crossfit? (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/what-crossfit.html)
FAQ (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/faq.html)

All of the links are from www.crossfit.com (www.crossfit.com)

You can also download a free issue of the crossfit journal (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-download/CFJ-trial.pdf) titled "What is Fitness".

Hopefully reading all of that will give you a better understanding of the principles behind crossfit.

Based on your goals, crossfit will give you an awesome foundation to build off of for whatever direction you decide to take your training in the future.
Although, crossfit is definately not for everyone, and be prepared to be humbled if you decide to persue the principles.

Anthony
06-01-2007, 10:17 AM
Keep things simple.

Lift heavy 2-3 days (full body) and 1-2 conditioning days per week. You could use the examples you linked. Is it simple? Yep. Is it the best? Who knows. Try it and tweak it.

If you find it hard to recover/progress, adjust your volume/intensity/rest until you find a good balance.

And I highly suggest you pick up a copy of Starting Strength (http://www.startingstrength.com/) by Mark Rippetoe.

DaoineSidhe
06-01-2007, 10:50 AM
Lot's of great info and links, thanks everyone. Much as it gets hard to not want to leap into things headfirst, I'll just take the advice on starting slower. Probably a good thing since it seems I have a lot to learn about using crossfit.

BCorn
06-01-2007, 11:06 AM
I know I did not start this thread, but I am learning from it as well. Anthony, thanks for your comments, I knew you could help on this matter. So what you are saying is:
1. allow 1-2 days rest when doing the crossfit.
2. arrange your crossfit workouts so that you get 3-5 days heavy lifting per 14 day span with the rest being metcon workouts of about 20 minutes.
3. when setting up the workouts, it is not necessary to follow the WOD as long as the workouts are arranged as mentioned in the statement above.
4. on the 3-5 days that will be used for lifting the volums should be low, ie; a couple excersices in the 1, 3, or 5 rep range.

I realize this is not for everyone, but I am trying to clarify if this is what you meant. thanks.

Anthony
06-01-2007, 11:24 AM
BCorn ... yes and no. The WOD is constantly evolving to represent what works. The community provides constant feedback and if something isn't producing results, it gets dropped. On the other hand, if someone else is doing something better, they'll use it too. There's no pride or ego, complete and total fitness whores - use what works, who gives a **** what it is.

Having said that, you're still trying to box it into something specific, when it's not. It's a set of principles. Once you understand the principles you can manipulate the methods to your choosing. "Methods are many, principles are few, methods always change, principles never do."

CrossFit's three principles are:

Constantly Varied = load, volume, intensity, order, time, rest, exercise variation, etc. Think of this as periodization.

Functional Movements = squat, deadlift, press, bench, chinup, row, clean, snatch, etc. and all their variations.

High Intensity = lots of ways to look at this, the two major ones in CrossFit are percentage of your 1RM (over 90% would be high intensity) and power output (measured in horsepower, there are calculators that guestimate this for you). You could also look at MHR, although some people will argue that high heartrate doesn't always correlate with high power (relative).

So yes, your above statements fall into these three principles. But no, your statements are very far from being a definition of CrossFit.

I realize this might be "vague" and not what you want to hear. It pisses a lot of people off when you can't give them specific Dates, Times, Exercies, Reps, and Sets ... but unfortunately there's no magic routine. You have to experiment, figure out your strengths and weaknesses and adjust accordingly.

Does that help?

BCorn
06-01-2007, 11:41 AM
thanks again Anthony. Like you said, I need to learn the principles so that I can mix and match my workouts as I feel needed. As of now I still feel kind of ingnorant of the whole thing so I think I will stick with the WOD's for a while until I get more comfortable. So if I am patterning your journal correctly, your "lifting days" are not an actual crossfit workout at all (a principle of crossfit but not an actual written crossfit workout). A principle of crossfit because your lifts are of the basic lifts or a variation, ie; bench, squat, snatch, etc.....and you arrange those as needed to adequetly hit all the diferent muscles yet spacing them out in a manner to not overtrain any musclegroup. On the days that won't be rest days or lift days you choose a metcon workout as suited (does not need to be the WOD).

Could you please explain the deloading to me as well. Sorry for all the questions. Believe it or not I actually have been working out for a while but I feel like I still don't have a clue as to what I'm doing.

Anthony
06-01-2007, 11:46 AM
You're getting the hang of it.

The lifting still falls under the CrossFit umbrella, but it's not a WOD. Remember, the WOD is an example of the principles and practically all affiliates and competitive athletes will be doing something different because of their different strengths/weaknesses/sport/in-season VS off/season, etc.

That's not to insult the WOD ... it's ****ing brilliant and will work for the majority of people looking to improve their fitness. But for those who are well aware of what they need, obviously it's going to be tweaked.

One thing that stands out in your post - I don't give a rats ass about muscles or muscle groups. What muscles does a clean & jerk use? All of them. So why bother trying to box it into a group?

Deloading is simply adjusting your routine to help recovery. Some people will take a week off and do nothing. Others will lower volume and/or intensity. Some may play a completely different sport. Like anything else, you need to experiment to figure out what works best for you.

BCorn
06-01-2007, 11:47 AM
One more clarification.....ya'll will hate me before this is over!!!!

Todays WOD would be considered a "lifting day" right???
back squat 1rm, shouler press 1rm, deadlift 1rm

Wednesdays WOD would be an example of a "metcon" workout?????
row 500 meters & 50 wall ball shots for 3 rounds

Anthony
06-01-2007, 11:54 AM
Exactly. Strength and conditioning.

BCorn
06-01-2007, 11:57 AM
ok thanks so much. I don't think we can beat that horse anymore for today. Great discussion though, helped me a lot. I have been sampleing the crossfit WOD's some and have been enjoying them. Hopefully I can gain some knowledge and expand on this some.

DaoineSidhe
06-01-2007, 12:41 PM
Since there is lifting already in different WOD's, would one really need to deviate from those unless they are wanting specific training? Same question if I wanted to apply more sport-specific exercises to it to mix and match of the the workout s there. The reason I find it confusing is because crossfit, as it names suggests, is a generalised workout that can be applied to most sports. I guess one could just apply the 3 principles you laid out to sport specific workouts themselves. Just want to be sure.

Anthony
06-01-2007, 12:46 PM
That's exactly it, DS ... for someone looking to improve their general fitness and build a solid foundation for sports, there's not much reason to deviate. Of course, as you progress you'll learn that you need more practise in certain areas and will accommodate those things, but yeah, you hit the nail on the head.

Why not give the WOD a shot for 3-6 months and see where it takes you?

ericg
06-01-2007, 01:05 PM
This is a great thread. People (and I can be accused of this as well) say that they want to do a CF work out, or incorporate CF in their routine not knowing what CF actually is. This thread should be referenced any time someone has questions on CF. It clears a lot of things up for sure.

Everyone can gain something by following the principles that CF has set. True that a PLr is focusing on the big three, but take two equally strong PLrs and sit them side by side, the only difference being that one is in better condition than the other, who would you put you money on?

muscleup
06-01-2007, 01:17 PM
who would you put you money on?

Anthony

Anthony
06-02-2007, 12:55 PM
Anthony

:withstupi

D Breyer
06-02-2007, 05:18 PM
I STRONGLY suggest giving the WOD a try. I was very skeptical about trying the program (don't ask me why), but after watching Anthony's journal and exchanging PM's with him a few months ago, I decided to give it a try. I have been doing the WOD now (everyday) for about 2 months, and the results are seriously scary. I've dropped bodyfat, have better conditioning, I'm more flexible, and (most importantly for me) I'm a ton stronger. This program is IMHO the best program for developing a true sense of fitness.

BTW, You should do the "Official Crossfit Warmup" before you do the WODs.

From the FAQ:

1.8. What's the "official" CrossFit warmup?

The "official" CrossFit Warm-up is in the April 2003 CrossFit Journal.

3 rounds of 10-15 reps of
Samson Stretch (do the Samson Stretch once each round for 15-30 seconds)
Overhead Squat with broomstick
Sit-up
Back-extension
Pull-up
Dip
Note that for a workout that's dip or pullup-centric, you might want to do something else in the warmup.

DaoineSidhe
06-03-2007, 01:33 PM
Decided to give the WOD a try today. I didn't bother timing for now since I'm just testing them out. I did, however, keep things brisk with good form while keeping breaks at a minimum so as to not pass out all together.

Pain made me it's bitch.

My body gave out halfway through the workout (65 pullups/65 dips since I didn't have the gear to do muscle-ups). Still, it felt amazing, and has me looking foward to tomorrow's plan.