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View Full Version : Starting a Detox. Have a few Questions.



BBar23
06-04-2007, 12:33 PM
Let me just give you a real quick background on what I am doing:


I will be fasting for 36 hours. From 8pm tonight until 8am Wednesday morning. In that time I will be drinking boatloads of water and a "Cleansing" cocktail, 8 to 12 times a day made up of 8oz water mixed with 2 tablespoons lemon juice a tablespoon of maple syrup and a 10th of a teaspoon of cayenne pepper.

Being this is my first time doing something like this, my questions are:

1.Should I stop taking my daily supplements during this time? (I.E. CEE, a Multi, Fish Oil, Glutamine)
2. Should I eliminate protein shakes after my workouts?
3. Do you think it is ok to pick on fruit (berries)?


Thanks

Built
06-04-2007, 12:37 PM
My personal feeling is these "cleanses" are bull****.

What purpose does this serve? You punishing yourself for your sins or something?

BBar23
06-04-2007, 12:44 PM
Just thought I would give it a try. See what happens. Try to. make me feel better

Built
06-04-2007, 12:48 PM
Are you not well now?

Hawk45
06-04-2007, 12:56 PM
You are going to workout and not eat? Does your car run w/o gas? Eat clean, train hard and will cure all..

If you are set on doing this I would not recommend working out at the same time. Seriously..

Beast
06-04-2007, 03:27 PM
Detox? roflmao

BigBossMan
06-04-2007, 04:23 PM
I believe what you are doing is called the 'Master Cleanse'-by Stanley Burroughs
I have done this before. I would have to agree with everyone else here and recommend against it. I made it 6days without eating anything except for the lemonade cocktail. Didn't make me feel better at all. And if you are going to workout while you do this prepare to be SORE...for a LONG time.

Holto
06-04-2007, 05:27 PM
Are you not well now?

Is this a yes or no question?

Are there no degrees of wellness?

Holto
06-04-2007, 05:29 PM
Cleansing is awesome. I'm not sure about the fasting though. I just grab a cheap product like re-cleanse and follow all my rules regarding what I don't generally eat.


1.Should I stop taking my daily supplements during this time? (I.E. CEE, a Multi, Fish Oil, Glutamine)
2. Should I eliminate protein shakes after my workouts?
3. Do you think it is ok to pick on fruit (berries)?


1 = yes
2 = no
3 = If you want to do this cleanse follow it. If you want to design your own go for it.

Built
06-04-2007, 05:29 PM
If you're not feeling well, why put the additional stress of starvation on the body.

I have ZERO patience for these things.

Holto
06-04-2007, 05:31 PM
If you're not feeling well

Who said he is not feeling well?

My point is until you feel awesome all the time (mentally, physically and emotionally) you can improve your wellness.

It's not digital, it's analog. You don't need to be sick to improve your wellness, it's a continuum.

Built
06-04-2007, 05:47 PM
Who said he is not feeling well?

My point is until you feel awesome all the time (mentally, physically and emotionally) you can improve your wellness.

It's not digital, it's analog. You don't need to be sick to improve your wellness, it's a continuum.
Well, he said he wanted to feel better:

Just thought I would give it a try. See what happens. Try to. make me feel better

Great - feel better by starving ... <rolls eyes>

BBar23
06-04-2007, 09:11 PM
I feel fine but I know I could feel better. Its difficult to explain. If I can make it the 36 hours then I make it. If not, so be it.

Built
06-04-2007, 09:15 PM
Your body is designed to detox itself. Skin, kidneys, breathing ...

You're doing something silly here.

D Breyer
06-04-2007, 10:45 PM
Hahahahhahahahahahha

You have got to be kidding me.

Spartan936
06-04-2007, 11:45 PM
Okay.

When I was younger, and more gullible, I undertook more water fasts than I had fingers, thinking it would help me in some way. I was wrong. :bang:

seK
06-05-2007, 08:52 AM
1.Should I stop taking my daily supplements during this time? (I.E. CEE, a Multi, Fish Oil, Glutamine)
2. Should I eliminate protein shakes after my workouts?
3. Do you think it is ok to pick on fruit (berries)?

Why are you picking on fruits? What did they ever do to you!.


Cleanses are a fad, unless medically prescribed don't even bother.

The Champion
06-05-2007, 09:23 AM
got a drug test coming up?

ectx
06-05-2007, 09:28 AM
I will be flat out honest with you. Detox programs are a bunch of crap with pretty much zero scientific merit. Starving your body only puts it through unecessary hell.

That said...so much of dieting and fitness is perception. It's doing things that make you feel better. Sometimes that's crap like Detox that really doesn't work, but if it makes you feel better and gets you to stick to a regular diet afterwards, then go for it. More Power to you.

Holto
06-05-2007, 02:52 PM
I will be flat out honest with you. Detox programs are a bunch of crap with pretty much zero scientific merit.

I wonder if there is any clinical data to either support it or disprove it.

Take for example something like Dioxin.

We know it enters the body.
How does the body get rid of something it has no knowledge of? (and isn't designed to deal with.)

Why do things like Mercury build up in the body? According to Built our bodies systems of detoxification are flawless.

This is the main argument of the Naturopathic Dr's I've trained with. They call substances like PCB's and dioxins Xenobiotics. They claim the body struggles to eliminate them.



Starving your body only puts it through unecessary hell.

I've had the pleasure of studying under Naturopathic Dr's from all around the world and they all seem to agree that the fasting is not needed.

Grab one of these and use it at half strength. I go two weeks.



Sometimes that's (brilliant ideas) like Detox that really doesn't work, but if it makes you feel better and gets you to stick to a regular diet afterwards, then go for it. More Power to you.

I think this is very true of the Alternative Health movement. I'm sure some of the things I do to improve my health aren't having any impact but the overall way I feel perpetuates my doing them.

The cleanse is a good example because you are supposed to avoid anything that is considered toxic while doing it. Do that a few times a year and suddenly your habits change.

It's funny that I avoid talking nutrition science with my friends that are into alternative health and I avoid talking alternative health to my friends that are bodybuilders. I really feel that to have the best of both worlds you need to be up on the latest clinical data yet still observe (respect) the thousands of years of anecdotal evidence that supports alternative health.

Holto
06-05-2007, 02:55 PM
Well, he said he wanted to feel better:

So do you truly believe wellness is a yes or no? or are you just messing with me?

Perhaps an herbal detox would help you with your condition.

I have found that since I have been avoiding what Alternative health terms as toxic, I have improved my mental acuity, and increased my sense of well being.

Built
06-05-2007, 03:05 PM
Right Holto, I'm just messing with you. I don't belive in wellness. <rolls eyes>

I just do what works babe, scientific principal. I don't do philosophies. I try to put my body through the least discomfort possible. I eat well, train hard, and trust my body to take care of the rest.

ectx
06-05-2007, 03:28 PM
I wonder if there is any clinical data to either support it or disprove it.

Take for example something like Dioxin.

We know it enters the body.
How does the body get rid of something it has no knowledge of? (and isn't designed to deal with.)

Why do things like Mercury build up in the body? According to Built our bodies systems of detoxification are flawless.


There are several clinical studies on dioxin clearance. These are called pharmacokinetic studies. Depending on the dioxin initial clearance could be in less than a month up to 13 years with subsequent exposures. This varies from compound to compound. Ultimately the body takes care of it. Coincidentally, fasting and drinking lots of water will do nothing to get rid of these compounds.

These studies are available on pubmed, you just need to look.

As an aside, the liver is amazing at detoxing the body. It would take a refinery the size of a football field to do the amount of work our livers do. At least that's what my biochem prof claimed. Considering he was partially responsible for figuring out the Kreb Cycle, I tend to believe him.

RedSpikeyThing
06-05-2007, 03:36 PM
I just do what works babe, scientific principal. I don't do philosophies. I try to put my body through the least discomfort possible. I eat well, train hard, and trust my body to take care of the rest.

I don't think so. You do what you know works - you don't experiment.


Considering he was partially responsible for figuring out the Kreb Cycle, I tend to believe him.
cool, does that mean he knows Mr. Krebs?

Beast
06-05-2007, 04:47 PM
At least that's what my biochem prof claimed. Considering he was partially responsible for figuring out the Kreb Cycle, I tend to believe him.
He's not at the HSC, is he?

Holto
06-06-2007, 10:25 AM
As an aside, the liver is amazing at detoxing the body. It would take a refinery the size of a football field to do the amount of work our livers do. At least that's what my biochem prof claimed. Considering he was partially responsible for figuring out the Kreb Cycle, I tend to believe him.

So why do things like mercury build up in the body?

ArchAngel777
06-06-2007, 11:26 AM
I side with Holto on this one. Not because I believe in cleansing, but because I cannot prove that it doesn't work and there is anecdotal evidence that gives it some credability.

Unless we are all knowing, or have absolute proof that something cannot be, then we have to be careful about making a factual statement.

A lot of time I see in science that when someone does not know the answer, they claim that the lack of evidence proves it to be false, which is very unscientific in reality.

ectx
06-06-2007, 12:27 PM
So why do things like mercury build up in the body?

Our bodies do eliminate mercury from the system...mercury simply builds up because the rate of excretion and accumulation is slow. That doesn't mean that the liver isn't a phenomenal chemical processing and elimination system.

How would a "detox" get rid of the mercury in your body? It ain't happening. It takes our bodies years to eliminate mercury (think about 15 of them). I doubt you'd survive fasting and detoxing that long, lol.


and yes, The guy did a post doc at oxford with Krebs. I think his role was in PDH, and he's at the hsc.

ectx
06-06-2007, 12:42 PM
I side with Holto on this one. Not because I believe in cleansing, but because I cannot prove that it doesn't work and there is anecdotal evidence that gives it some credability.

Unless we are all knowing, or have absolute proof that something cannot be, then we have to be careful about making a factual statement.

A lot of time I see in science that when someone does not know the answer, they claim that the lack of evidence proves it to be false, which is very unscientific in reality.

Anecdotal evidence? Where? Biochemistry and physiology dictates that this will not work. It goes against basic scientific knowledge. Starving your body will not eliminate toxins. Thermodynamically, biochemically, heck, scientifically it's against the rules.

As far as anecdotal evidence goes...there's anecdotal evidence that "hair of the dog" will get you over your hangover. The truth is that drinking more alcohol will only make things worse.

When it comes to my health, I'd rather rely on science than on what joe shmoe is telling me to do to my body because it made him feel better.

Does this mean I discourage alternative medicine? Heck no. Some of it has merit. I remember having a traditional chinese medicine practitioner in the one floor down. When my throat was ready to go out I'd pay her a visit and she'd give me some crysanthanum tea that would fix it right up. Scientifically it makes sense that some compound in her tea would either boost my immune system or serve as either an anti-inflammatory or antiseptic. Scientifically it makes no sense that starving yourself for a few days would get rid of "the poisons" in your body.

ArchAngel777
06-06-2007, 01:16 PM
Starving your body will not eliminate toxins. Thermodynamically, biochemically, heck, scientifically it's against the rules.

So, according to you, once you quit eating for a few hours and enter into a fasted state, then your body no longers removes toxins? In other words, your liver shuts down in a fast? I don't think so.

Built
06-06-2007, 01:21 PM
So, according to you, once you quit eating for a few hours and enter into a fasted state, then your body no longers removes toxins? In other words, your liver shuts down in a fast? I don't think so.


That's not what ectx said at all.

He said starving your body won't accomplish this. It won't enhance your body's ability to perform this task.

ArchAngel777
06-06-2007, 01:25 PM
That's not what ectx said at all.

He said starving your body won't accomplish this. It won't enhance your body's ability to perform this task.

He didn't use "enhance", you did. I would tend to agree that it won't enhance it.

Built
06-06-2007, 01:36 PM
He said starving won't accomplish this task. Are you just trying to be pedantic?

ArchAngel777
06-06-2007, 01:37 PM
He said starving won't accomplish this task. Are you just trying to be pedantic?

Not eating for a few days isn't "starving".

ectx
06-06-2007, 01:39 PM
LOL...I didn't say your liver would shut down. I may have not used the word "enhance" but the subtext is there. I said "starving your body won't eliminate toxins". The prinicples behind a detox are that starvation purges your body of toxins. the mechanisms by which this happens are not really discussed (because it's pseudoscience and, as you pointed out, anecdotal). I didn't discuss these mechanisms either. I just said that starving wont eliminate your toxins. That's implying that the mechanisms of clearance would be enhanced by a fast. My apologies for not making this clear. I simply thougt the subtext and context of this entire thread were clearer. I'll just have to remember to take bounded rationality into account next time.

ArchAngel777
06-06-2007, 01:42 PM
LOL...I didn't say your liver would shut down. I may have not used the word "enhance" but the subtext is there. I said "starving your body won't eliminate toxins". The prinicples behind a detox are that starvation purges your body of toxins. the mechanisms by which this happens are not really discussed (because it's pseudoscience and, as you pointed out, anecdotal). I didn't discuss these mechanisms either. I just said that starving wont eliminate your toxins. That's implying that the mechanisms of clearance would be enhanced by a fast. My apologies for not making this clear. I simply thougt the subtext and context of this entire thread were clearer. I'll just have to remember to take bounded rationality into account next time.

There is no need for any type of subtle putdowns here. Thanks for clarifying.

Holto
06-06-2007, 02:30 PM
Our bodies do eliminate mercury from the system...mercury simply builds up because the rate of excretion and accumulation is slow. That doesn't mean that the liver isn't a phenomenal chemical processing and elimination system.

This to me is evidence that the body needs help eliminating toxins. I think some people in this thread believe the bodies means of detoxing are flawless.



Anecdotal evidence?

Hundreds of millions of people that believe in it. That figure of course would be people who have lived over the last few thousand years.

Like Built I ate well and trained hard for about 10 years. Then I started studying natural medicine and I have never looked back. I don't need clinical data to support what I do, I do it because I feel incredible. The people that consume my nutritional therapy feel amazing too.

Just for the record I don't advocate fasting. There are detox kits that support the organs that cleanse the body, that is all that is needed.

Holto
06-06-2007, 02:32 PM
That's not what ectx said at all.

He said starving your body won't accomplish this. It won't enhance your body's ability to perform this task.

What about regeneration of enterocytes? They replenish themselves in 2-3 days. Someone suffering from leaky gut could benefit tremendously from this.

ectx
06-06-2007, 02:37 PM
This to me is evidence that the body needs help eliminating toxins. I think some people in this thread believe the bodies means of detoxing are flawless.

How does fasting eliminate toxins? Detox kits?

I also said...if you feel great doing it then who cares if it really works or not.

ArchAngel777
06-06-2007, 02:45 PM
I think we just need to recognize that whether or not we agree with many differering opinions on wellness. We do need to respect other people and their opinions on it.

While from a scientific viewpoint, fasting might be worthless, but for that individual, it may be the very thing he needs to regain self-control, to prove to himself mind over matter. Maybe not eating anything and having an empty stomach rejuvinates him. I dunno... Heck, each person is unique.

I fast from certain foods at times, from certain drinks. It all boils down to proving to myself that I can control what goes in my mouth. Does it make me healthier? In the long run it does, because I am learning to be moderate.

Like, for instance, a lot of people eliminate carbs from their diet because even a moderate ammount causes them discomfort or feelings of insatiable hunger. For them, going no carbs is actually less painful than going moderate carbs. Again, each person is different. I am not saying anything new, we all know that in this thread.

The OP has decided to do this. He said he will "try" this. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying anything, so long as it does not cause harm to oneself. I think we can all agree that not eating for 36 hours is hardly "harmful". It might be unpleasent, completely uneccessary (I butchered that word) but, none of the less, he isn't going to die from it.

Just my thoughts... I don't honestly know enough about microbiology to go toe to toe with ECTS, or Holto or Built. That isn't my profession and I confident in leaving the scientific aspects to them to discuss.

ArchAngel777
06-06-2007, 02:51 PM
I also said...if you feel great doing it then who cares if it really works or not.

Yep, you did... In fact, everyone in this thread generally agrees with one another, it just that we all may have a certain bias, or a different way to explain it. Sure, we may slightly differ, but in the end, don't we all agree that whether or not something truly works, the placebo effect holds true?

CrazyK
06-06-2007, 04:39 PM
Hundreds of millions of people that believe in it. That figure of course would be people who have lived over the last few thousand years. That's not a logical explanation for your cause. Hundreds of millions of people once believed in Zeus, but that is not valid evidence to prove the conclusion.

Built
06-06-2007, 04:40 PM
...millions of people once believed in Zeus, but that is not valid evidence to prove the conclusion.

THANK you.

Beast
06-06-2007, 05:04 PM
Methinks the placebo effect is strong in here.

Whatever. If it makes you feel healthier, that's your business.

MrWebb78
06-06-2007, 05:07 PM
That's not a logical explanation for your cause. Hundreds of millions of people once believed in Zeus, but that is not valid evidence to prove the conclusion.

You mean Zeus isn't real?

seK
06-06-2007, 05:27 PM
You mean Zeus isn't real?
Pft I saw him the other day riding a unicorn with god.

n4rd0
06-06-2007, 05:38 PM
The only reasonable explanation for a detox that I can think of is if you have a drug test or something. If you want to detox your body without starving yourslef just drink water till your peeing clear for a while .. that will flush out your system nicely.

Stray
06-06-2007, 07:07 PM
All this negative energy is toxifying my aura...great now I'm gonna have to fast and drink disgusting concoctions. :cry:

Built
06-07-2007, 12:44 AM
All this negative energy is toxifying my aura...great now I'm gonna have to fast and drink disgusting concoctions. :cry:

This was good!

Wild Cat McCane
06-17-2007, 06:28 PM
oh my god i just had to bring this one back up...

in the detox pills you buy i couldn't help but google them, most of the junk in them is milk thistle....

Lemone water....

for someone who wont be quit about people referencing their ideas, i think this is the most hair brained idea on the board so far.

Billfromthehill
11-18-2007, 09:34 AM
I've done a couple juice fasts.To lose weight you can't beat them.I started one without doing alot of research but while I was doing it I read alot of people's blogs and came to the conclusion that most of these people are quacks.They are obsessed with their bowel movements and almost all of these holistic "cleansing"diets are without scientific proof.There is a cleansing diet called the "Liver Cleanse"where they claim you will poop out liver stones(yes they take pictures)When all they are doing is creating a caustic enviroment in their digestive system where their body turns olive oil into soap balls(I mean liver stones) but if you point that out on their message boards they will ban you from posting.One thing I found interesting though is alot of people talk about juice fasts making you have dreams about your childhood which I did and actually read about it after having them.Really weird because they were about things and people I hadnt thought about in 20 years.

1ManRiot
11-18-2007, 12:05 PM
Probably already been said, but "detox" = myth

BFGUITAR
11-18-2007, 12:14 PM
Detox is bull but im sure a bowel cleansing can be beneficial... monthly enema cant hurt :D

Wild Cat McCane
11-18-2007, 12:41 PM
Yeah! this thread came back from the dead!!!

What amazed me through this entire thread is the board's most notorious citation requiring member stood up and proclaimed that since so many people believe in detox, it must work....

anyone else have a wtf moment too?

You skin, your liver, your kidneys. Explain how they run more efficiently when they are not being properly maintained due to starving yourself of the nutrients your body needs.

Here is the only factual information, with true science behind it (so far no one supporting detox has given a credible site)....WATER. Best cleaning system there is.

This is not science. Water is the best cleanser.
It also supports your skin, the best detox instrument on your body.

If toxins building up in your poor little colon are so harmful to your well being and your eternal Zen, I don't know...have some fiber?

Don't come in here requiring everyone to cite the **** out of their sources and then have this wonderful idea that detox is the most credible thing to do. without a fact behind it.

Jesus Christ that pissed me off when this thread was started, and it ruined my day now :D

Holto
11-19-2007, 03:16 PM
What amazed me through this entire thread is the board's most notorious citation requiring member stood up and proclaimed that since so many people believe in detox, it must work....


Are you referring to me?

If so, my comment was in response to the question of what anecdotal evidence we had.

Since some of your other comments touch on the fasting (which I'm not advocating) I'm not sure if you are referring to me.

Then again reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points. For the record, I've probably called out you specifically more than I've called out everyone else on this board in total.


It also supports your skin, the best detox instrument on your body.

The skin is a secondary system of detoxification. It only deals with toxins if the bodies primary means of detoxification becomes overwhelmed.

Anyone who has taken the time to learn about how the body deals with toxins would know that.

Like I said I trained hard and ate well for a long time. I felt great. Now I do some tree hugger hippie type stuff that will likely never be studied adequately and I feel incredible.