View Full Version : carb cycle question

06-07-2007, 10:03 AM
fruits are carbs. do they count as carbs in the carb cycle?
what about vegtables?

Mr. D
06-07-2007, 10:34 AM
Enter everything into fitday. Track your carb totals that way.

But in general, fruits do count, vegetables somewhat. It depends on the vegetable, some are primary fibre (greens, etc) and some are primary starches (sweet potato,potatoes). A lot of people dont cruciferous vegetables towards their carb total.

I again say put everything in fitday and track your carb total/cals that way.

06-07-2007, 10:54 AM
I'll add that it's the starchy ones - glucose polymers - to target around your lifts.

06-07-2007, 10:58 AM
Built, I've been wondering...if I wanted to drink skim milk during the day and I'm trying to follow your carb cycling layout should I only drink milk around lifting or would it be okay with breakfast and maybe before bed with Nitrean?

06-07-2007, 11:01 AM
Okay. Lemme be clear here. I ONLY carb cycle because it satisfies two basic needs of mine:
1. appetite control
2. carbs around my lifting

If I could eat carbs all day and manage both, I would.

06-07-2007, 11:31 AM
Out of curiosity, how much do you experiment with your diet built?

I know I tried your approach for a long time and it went well, but i think it because of the mere fact that I thought it was going to make me completely ripped. Now I enjoy plenty of carbs daily, but generally go to the lowish side of fat. You gotta give some to get a little.

06-07-2007, 11:53 AM
I started with Atkins

Then added in CKD - which was a disaster at the time. I was too IR. Not ready.

Then fiddled with TKD for years.

Then I got organized and started weighing my food - at this point, I finally GOT somewhere.

Now I'm doing longer carbups and eating slightly less fat than before - still higher than most women I'm sure, but less than a year or two ago. My body changes, I change with it. I'm becoming more insulin sensitive, I handle carbs better now than I did. And that is a very, very cool feeling for someone who managed to get off Metformin a few years back.

I'm finding I can "get away" with a very different diet now than when I was fat. I'm comfortable on lower fat and higher carbs now than I used to be when I was fat. And I finally understand why.

06-07-2007, 11:55 AM
Again, out of curiosity's sake, how much is "low fat"?

I definately changed my macros around so I could eat more volume(rather an apple than a tblspoon of PB), and aside from the bloating once in a while(getting better) I feel quite comfortable.

06-07-2007, 12:10 PM
I don't go lower than half a gram per pound LBM for my fats. For me, this is roughly 55-60g of fat daily. For me, THIS is LOW fat.

Usually I like my fats in the 80g range, or higher. But I'm finding I can tolerate them as low as 60g on my higher carb days - something I couldn't have imagined a few years ago.

06-07-2007, 02:19 PM
built what are the best times to have the fats(meals), for optimal fat loSS "cut"

06-07-2007, 02:42 PM
Okay. Lemme be clear here. I ONLY carb cycle because it satisfies two basic needs of mine:
1. appetite control
2. carbs around my lifting

If I could eat carbs all day and manage both, I would.

WOW, that hit me like a wall.
Let me get this straight, the ONLY reason you carb cycle are for those 2 reasons? Meaning there is no other reason to carb cycle?

06-07-2007, 02:59 PM
kique, just keep 'em away from your post-workout meal. Nothing to do with fat loss there, just to make sure you get quick absorption post workout.

Keith, there *may* be other benefits to eating this way. The "experts" are divided.

I first read about nutrient timing from Berardi. I tried eating that way and found it comfortable. There are valid criticisms of how well it works for partioning - but it's the only way I've found to manage my appetite. I get the appetite suppression of Atkins, with the ergogenic benefits of carbs around my lifts.

If it turns out there really ARE pronounced physique-enhancing benefits to eating this way, I'll be delighted. If not, I'll continue to eat this way because it works for me.

06-07-2007, 03:06 PM
Good to know. I'm currently reading about nutrient timing from Berardi and it definately sounds like this guy knows his stuff! I'm actually currently on the last phase of his training program as well. I read more about carb cycling (http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=811783) and it had me convinced there were physical benefits from this. Have you read this before, and if so, what is your opinion to this?

06-07-2007, 03:18 PM
I've read it, I've been slammed for suggesting carb cycling for ergogenic gains, I'm on the fence as to how effective it is to this end, and I don't care because it's the only way I've ever been able to keep my gargantuan appetite under control. My feeling is that there may be some small advantage to it, even after the dust clears. I keep it really simple - I don't bother with high, medium, low days, I just do high and low and it's been fine.

06-07-2007, 03:25 PM
So from your understanding and knowledge, would you recommend carb cycling for cutting purposes? Or stick to the basic 10-20% below maintenance cals?

Mr. D
06-07-2007, 03:28 PM
For the record, Lyle McDonald doesnt believe in nutrient timing. All that matters is that you hit your protein and fat minimums while eating under maintenance.

It just happens to be most of the time that on a cut, with calories reduced, the only place you can fit in carbs is pre/post and AM.

06-07-2007, 03:37 PM
I like it because it makes it easy to manage my appetite. I still run the deficit - I figure it out over the week for the average, then run higher and lower than average depending on the days.
For example, this is me right now:

LBM = 115 lbs.
Maintenance calories: 2050 per day.

Running a 15% deficit ...

A caloric deficit of 2152.5 calories per week,
for a loss of of 0.615 pounds per week (I hope lol!)

Average weekly macros:
159g of protein,
76g of fat, and
106g of carbohydrate,
1,743 calories in total.

4 Lifting/HIIT days:
167g of protein,
63g of fat, and
149g of carbohydrate,
1,832 calories in total.

3 Rest/SS Cardio days:
150g of protein,
92g of fat, and
49g of carbohydrate,
1,623 calories in total.

06-07-2007, 03:38 PM
For the record, Lyle McDonald doesnt believe in nutrient timing. All that matters is that you hit your protein and fat minimums while eating under maintenance.

It just happens to be most of the time that on a cut, with calories reduced, the only place you can fit in carbs is pre/post and AM.


(I eschew the AM carbs because they make me hungry all day)

Mr. D
06-07-2007, 03:43 PM
Similar weight loss with low-energy food combining or balanced diets. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10805507&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum)

Golay A, Allaz AF, Ybarra J, Bianchi P, Saraiva S, Mensi N, Gomis R, de Tonnac N.

Division of Therapeutic Patient Education for Chronic Diseases, University Hospital Geneva, Switzerland. Alain.Golay@hcuge.ch

OBJECTIVE: The goal of this study was to evaluate the effect of two diets ('food combining' or dissociated vs balanced) on body weight and metabolic parameters during a 6-week period in an in-hospital setting. SUBJECTS AND DESIGN: 54 obese patients were randomly assigned to receive diets containing 4.5 MJ/day (1100 kcal/day) composed of either 25% protein, 47% carbohydrates and 25% lipids (dissociated diet) or 25% protein, 42% carbohydrates and 31% lipids (balanced diet). Consequently, the two diets were equally low in energy and substrate content (protein, fat and carbohydrate) but widely differed in substrate distribution throughout the day. RESULTS: There was no significant difference in the amount of weight loss in response to dissociated (6.2 +/- 0.6 kg) or balanced (7.5 +/- 0.4 kg) diets. Furthermore, significant decreases in total body fat and waist-to-hip circumference ratio were seen in both groups, and the magnitude of the changes did not vary as a function of the diet composition. Fasting plasma glucose, insulin, total cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations decreased significantly and similarly in patients receiving both diets. Both systolic and diastolic blood pressure values decreased significantly in patients eating balanced diets. The results of this study show that both diets achieved similar weight loss. Total fat weight loss was higher in balanced diets, although differences did not reach statistical significance. Total lean body mass was identically spared in both groups. CONCLUSION: In summary at identical energy intake and similar substrate composition, the dissociated (or 'food combining') diet did not bring any additional loss in weight and body fat.

06-07-2007, 03:45 PM
Which is why I always push the "keep yourself comfortable" message. Once your minimums are hit for the essentials, the only thing that really matters is that you'll stick to it.

Mr. D
06-07-2007, 03:50 PM
Here is an excerpt from a posting on Lyles board from a while back.

With regards to food combining-
Are you basically not against p/f/c in a meal? So, are you just concerned with daily totals?

Daily totals. Bodybuilders have gotten big on p/f/c in meals and have ogtten ripped on such and it all comes down to daily totals.

Separating them does nothing except perhaps to control caloric intake (b/c people end up eating less at any given meal when you limit what they can eat).

What Berardi conveniently ignores is that
a. protein raises insulin
b. it takes only miniscule amounts of insulin to affect fat cell metabolism
c. dietary fat itself affects fat cell metabolism with NO CHANGE In insulin becuse of a little bastard protein called acylation stimulation protein (ASP).

But, again, most of the tastsy high calorie stuff most people overeat contais fat/carbs. IF you make them separate fat from carbs, you limit what they can eat at any given meal. It's a way to trick them into eating less.