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Sensei
06-08-2007, 06:18 PM
I thought this was an interesting list of bodyweight exercises posted by Steve Maxwell a while back on the dragondoor forums. I realize for CrossFit folks, the numbers may seem low, but I'm sure at least some of the exercise numbers (pull-ups, for example) are based on different form expectations.
These are considered superior standards by most fitness norms based on college age men in the military or martial sport.

Pushups-100
Hindu pushups-100
pistols-25 each leg
pullups-18
chinups-20
hindu squats-100 in 3 minutes
deck squats-50 in 5 minutes
squat thrusts (burpees)-100
v-situps-50
one arm pushups-15
standard situps (feet anchored)-80 in 2 minutes
hip pullovers on a high bar-10
25' rope climb (no feet)-10 sec.
handstand pushups-15
dips-40

That should give a few numbers to shoot for. Don't try to work everything at once. For a few weeks or even months, pick one push, a pull, an abdominal and leg/hip exercise to focus on in your workouts. Do not neglect the lower back.

Steve Maxwell

Bob
06-08-2007, 07:18 PM
That list tells me one thing...

I'm pathetic!!

Anthony
06-08-2007, 08:22 PM
I think it's irresponsible to recommend hindu squats.

Sensei
06-08-2007, 09:57 PM
I think it's irresponsible to recommend hindu squats.I'm pretty surprised to hear you say that and I disagree. They certainly aren't for everyone, but what exercise is?

Is there stress on the knees? Hell yes. Is it something you need to build into? Almost certainly. When implemented properly can it strengthen your knees and legs? IMHO, yes.

Anthony
06-08-2007, 10:32 PM
Why would I recommend a movement that limits the use of the posterior chain when 99.9% of people are already imbalanced in that area?

Not to mention you'll never lift heavy weight, you'll never use it to progress to new movements, and you'll hamper development of things you should be doing (squat, deadlift, clean, etc).

Sensei
06-08-2007, 10:40 PM
Why would I recommend a movement that limits the use of the posterior chain when 99.9% of people are already imbalanced in that area?That's a good point, but limiting synergist involvement isn't ALWAYS a bad thing. You know that...

Not to mention you'll never lift heavy weight, you'll never use it to progress to new movements, and you'll hamper development of things you should be doing (squat, deadlift, clean, etc).Heavy, as you know, is relative. If you can hold a 45 and do it, that's pretty heavy.

As far as progression to new movements, I get it but not really... If you're saying there are NO athletic/injury-prevention applications, I'd disagree.

WHY would it hamper your development in squats, cleans, DLs??? Who said "Drop squatting and DLs and just do Hindus. You'll be a monster!"?

muscleup
06-08-2007, 11:12 PM
What about the use of a hindu squat for warm-up purposes? The flexation of the foot from heal-toe-heal may better ready the lower leg muscles for more functional movements to come in the heavier training?

Although the breathing and arm movements could be done with a reagular air squat and you would probably get the same effect in that aspect & ankle flexation could be performed in other ways as far as warm-ups go...not trying to justify it's existance, just trying to decide if the warm-up would be the best place to use it if desired.

Training to do 100 in 3mins may be time waisted unless there was some sort of "bet" or money involved though...just my opinion (not taking sides)

Anthony
06-09-2007, 04:52 AM
That's a good point, but limiting synergist involvement isn't ALWAYS a bad thing. You know that...
Maybe in rehab, but even then it could be argued that biomechanically sound movements will restore balance.


Heavy, as you know, is relative. If you can hold a 45 and do it, that's pretty heavy.
45 pound kick backs are heavy too ... but they don't belong in an athlete's program.


As far as progression to new movements, I get it but not really... If you're saying there are NO athletic/injury-prevention applications, I'd disagree.
That's what I'm saying. There's no progression to squats, deadlifts, cleans, snatches, jumping, throwing, punching, etc. If you have examples, feel free to share!


WHY would it hamper your development in squats, cleans, DLs??? Who said "Drop squatting and DLs and just do Hindus. You'll be a monster!"?
Because the movement pattern is similar enough to screw with the cns and reinforce bad habits (on toes, unbalanced load, etc).

Sensei
06-09-2007, 05:38 AM
You seem to be a bit argumentative with me today for some reason...

Maybe in rehab, but even then it could be argued that biomechanically sound movements will restore balance.?? I'm still not following you here... Apparently, you don't believe in isolation work even for rehab or glaring weaknesses... In my mind, a Hindu squat is little more than a challenging leg extension.

45 pound kick backs are heavy too ... but they don't belong in an athlete's program.You brought up the "can't go heavy" argument... I'm sure you'll be really rolling your eyes at this one, but even tricep kickback hybrid movements have a use for sports.

That's what I'm saying. There's no progression to squats, deadlifts, cleans, snatches, jumping, throwing, punching, etc. If you have examples, feel free to share!Well, the progression would be in a rehab application. If you're someone who's had a vastus medialis issue (like I have recently) Hindu squats could be a part of rehab. There - I shared.http://forums.prowrestling.com/images/smilies/gay_flirt.gif
Because the movement pattern is similar enough to screw with the cns and reinforce bad habits (on toes, unbalanced load, etc).C'mon. For someone who's already adept at squatting, a few sessions of Hindu squats is not going to hurt them. That's almost as bad as PLers saying that they NEVER do high reps because it will affect their ability to go heavy... and they say that A LOT. Do you really think that? Do you think that occasional stone lifting is going to screw with your CNS and reinforce bad habits for deadlifting too?

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but you seem to have a hair about something... It's not like you to be so all or nothing.

Anthony
06-09-2007, 06:13 AM
I'm not against isolation work for rehab. In my opinion, do whatever gets you healthy the quickest. But a hindu squat causes more problems than it solves. There are more efficient and effective methods ... which is what I was getting at with the kickbacks.

I won't get into the PL/Deadlift examples you gave because we'll just end up on a tangent. But ... I suppose we already have considering the hindu squats were a small part of what you posted ... lol.

Anyway, I apologize for my tone earlier. I wasn't meaning to be a dick, but yes, I am firmly against hindu squats. :D

Sensei
06-09-2007, 06:39 AM
I'm not against isolation work for rehab. In my opinion, do whatever gets you healthy the quickest. But a hindu squat causes more problems than it solves. There are more efficient and effective methods ... which is what I was getting at with the kickbacks.I won't argue a thing if you say that Hindu squats are a fringe exercise - no doubt and I can see where it could exacerbate existing issues, but I'm just not seeing the causing problems part (assuming, of course, you aren't doing too much too soon).
I won't get into the PL/Deadlift examples you gave because we'll just end up on a tangent. But ... I suppose we already have considering the hindu squats were a small part of what you posted ... lol.Yeah, I didn't post it to debate the value of the individual exercises in a program. I actually found that post because I was curious what good numbers would be for pistols.
I actually would like to hear your thoughts on the examples I presented. As with any kind of "odd lift" or "chaos training", whatever you want to call it, again, I can see it exacerbating (I like the word, OK?) issues. But in otherwise healthy, proficient athletes, I think the value is in the kinesthetic problem-solving, the training novelty, variation in stressors, etc.

Anyway, I apologize for my tone earlier. I wasn't meaning to be a dick, but yes, I am firmly against hindu squats. :DI appreciate that.:cool: Now, let's ignore our responsibilities and continue to talk training all day.

Beast
06-09-2007, 10:17 AM
Read the first 2 sentences here and you'll never want to do hindu squats again, lol

http://www.hindusquats.com/

MPB
06-09-2007, 12:40 PM
Hehe, matt furey...

Anthony
06-09-2007, 01:07 PM
I actually would like to hear your thoughts on the examples I presented.

I gave my comments on the ones I'm familiar with ... it's amusing how many exercises there are for pressing compared to pulling.


Pushups-100 - depends on testing standards. If they are loose gym pushups (ie, in a set of 100 you might see 1 good one), then it's reasonable. If it's strict military testing, I'd like to see the guy who can do it.

Pistols-25 each leg - reasonable.

pullups-18 - low.
chinups-20 - low.

squat thrusts (burpees)-100 - depends on the testing standards. Can you break? Is there a time limit? Most people can do this under 15. Under 10 is good. Under 8 is excellent.

one arm pushups-15 - excellent.

standard situps (feet anchored)-80 in 2 minutes - kind of low.

hip pullovers on a high bar-10 - I assume this is a bar muscleup? If so, excellent.

25' rope climb (no feet)-10 sec. - good.

handstand pushups-15 - good.

dips-40 - good.

Sensei
06-09-2007, 02:53 PM
it's amusing how many exercises there are for pressing compared to pulling.
5 vs. 3. I don't think that he's necessarily big on chest work... He's just giving standards for common bdwt. exercises you see in the gym, on the mat, and in the dojo.

hip pullovers = a leg raise without swinging - legs over the bar - end in same position as muscle-up)

To the Matt Furey comment: Yeah, I know...

Anthony
06-09-2007, 02:56 PM
I see six VS two ... ? Burpee has a pushup and I'm not making distinction between chinup/pullup. Maybe we should change the name based on whether your socks are white or blue?

Anyway, it was amusing, that's all. :D

Sensei
06-09-2007, 03:18 PM
I see six VS two ... ? Burpee has a pushup and I'm not making distinction between chinup/pullup. Maybe we should change the name based on whether your socks are white or blue?

Anyway, it was amusing, that's all. :DYeah, I understand where you're coming from on the pull-ups/chin-ups distinction and I don't disagree. I just think you're being a bit overcritical of the guy - he wrote this for a bunch of newbs who were just looking for numbers to shoot for, weigh 140 soaking wet, don't know what a kip is and, if tested, probably would be lucky to do 6 pull-ups with a supinated grip and 3 pronated...

Anthony
06-10-2007, 02:37 PM
Sensei, I have nothing against the guy. I'm just not a fan of hindu squats. :D