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hardwork247
06-14-2007, 11:05 AM
Hi all I'm new to this forum, for the past day I've been going trough and looking at the archives to find information about chains. I attend the University of Texas and ever since I saw a training video for a DE benching with chains I was curious. I always like new workouts and lifts (like anyone else) so I was hooked. I understand how chains and bands work and can see how both with help, however I would prefer chains.

-I was wondering if anyone knew of a store i Austin TX that sold chains ?
(long shot I know)

-Also will bands work as well as chains or should I keep looking for the chains?

any info on this would be appreciated
thanks in advance
Spencer

Clifford Gillmore
06-14-2007, 11:11 AM
I like both. My DE work is normally cycled between straight weight, bands and chains. Chains have that great deload effect, bands just plain destroy me.

As for buying chains, just go to hardware store and buy heaps and cut to whatever length you want.

RhodeHouse
06-14-2007, 12:27 PM
Go to a mechanic shop or somewhere where they have heavy machinery that they might need to move. Any kind of industrial type shop will probably have chains that they'll give you. If not, try EliteFTS.com

JustinASU
06-14-2007, 02:43 PM
Have you tried a hardware or home improvement store for the chains?

For the record I like to use both as training tools, but bands can be quite hard on your CNS, especially for something like pressing. It's important to switch it up every once in a while.

deeder
06-14-2007, 07:24 PM
Have you tried a hardware or home improvement store for the chains?

For the record I like to use both as training tools, but bands can be quite hard on your CNS, especially for something like pressing. It's important to switch it up every once in a while.

Really? Why is that?

TommyBoy
06-14-2007, 08:09 PM
bands can be quite hard on your CNS
Yeah, that's exactly why I don't use them very much anymore.

Sidior
06-14-2007, 08:17 PM
Really? Why is that?

I think it was alot to do with all the tension your body has to deal with while using them. Chains just get heavier, bands add tension. Tension is tougher on your CNS then just straight weight. I'm not very bright so take what I say with a grain of salt.

vdizenzo
06-14-2007, 09:28 PM
I agree with the above. I use bands sparingly.

deeder
06-14-2007, 10:19 PM
I think it was alot to do with all the tension your body has to deal with while using them. Chains just get heavier, bands add tension. Tension is tougher on your CNS then just straight weight. I'm not very bright so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I lol'ed at that!

I don't really understand why tension would be any worse than just more weight... I'm not trying to argue with you guys as I am new to bands and have never used chains; just trying to figure it out :alcoholic

Sidior
06-14-2007, 10:48 PM
I lol'ed at that!

I don't really understand why tension would be any worse than just more weight... I'm not trying to argue with you guys as I am new to bands and have never used chains; just trying to figure it out :alcoholic

I'm not entirely sure why either actually heh. Bands also put alot of extra stress on your shoulder (be it benching or squatting) so that may be another reason.

deeder
06-14-2007, 10:59 PM
I'm not entirely sure why either actually heh. Bands also put alot of extra stress on your shoulder (be it benching or squatting) so that may be another reason.

Hmmm.... Tis a mystery... I guess I've got some reading to do before I continue my love affair with bands!

Sidior
06-14-2007, 11:02 PM
Hmmm.... Tis a mystery... I guess I've got some reading to do before I continue my love affair with bands!

I have been using them for ages and I don't know my ass from a hole in the wall. Use them, just be smart about them. If you feel beat up, take a break.

Sensei
06-15-2007, 01:20 AM
I don't really understand why tension would be any worse than just more weight... I'm not trying to argue with you The difference is huge. When you lift a chain and then let go, it drops. When you stretch a band and then let go, it snaps back. If you are doing squats with bands (anchored at the floor), the bands throw the weight down to the ground.


I love both, but here are some things to consider:

*It's a lot easier to stuff a pair of bands in your gym bag than 40+lbs in 3/8" or 5/8" chain

*You can use bands for a lot of different exercises and applications

*Bands are a lot cheaper

*Chains load and deload a lot more smoothly than bands

*Bands lock you into a Smith machine-like groove - chains do not

*Chains are safer

*Chains are easier to set up w. barbell exercises

hardwork247
06-15-2007, 03:17 PM
thanks for the help guys

JustinASU
06-15-2007, 04:34 PM
Deeder

If you've ever tried bands you'll know there's a DEFINITE difference between those and heavier weight. Bands allow you to use take the strongest part of your lift and add a lot more tension and resistance. That alone can be extremely hard on your CNS. Couple that with what Sensei said about the stretch reflex of a band and it can really tax you if you use bands too much. I recall hearing a general rule-- It was something like, use bands 1 out of every 3 weeks.

I can't explain it from a physiological standpoint any better than the others already have, but speaking from experience, use bands sparingly on the big 3.

waynedang
06-15-2007, 07:01 PM
I like bands myself. I hook them up halved and get a bunch of tension throught the lift. But I can not train bands all the time. They will beat you up quick if not carefull. I really think they help my weak ass lock out.

betastas
06-15-2007, 08:02 PM
Not trying to be a **** disturber or anything, but to be fair both bands and chains produce a force that varies linearly with distance. There isn't a special force that makes bands different then chains. However, there are some behaviours of bands that make them different then chains.

1. Band tension slopes vs. chain gravity
Both of these produce linear forces (within the breakdown point of bands).
However, the bands can provide a steeper curve than the chain weight, which is just fixed at a rate based on gravity.

2. Direction of force
Bands pull in the direction to where they are anchored. If you anchor them at a non-perpendicular angle to your lift, you will introduce lateral force components due to force in the band being generated along the same angle. Chains always pull directly to the centre of the earth. There is no lateral components added by chains, aside from any that you may introduce by swinging the bar around laterally. I feel that the introduction of these non-vertical forces is what makes the bands more strenuous to use.

In the end though, force is force. Bands don't actively pull you down anymore than chain weight. They simply provide a linear force based on the distance stretched. Then can however, create more tension per meter stretched then the weight can match with it's fixed value for gravity.

FWIW, I find bands beat me up more than chains too. :D

Clifford Gillmore
06-15-2007, 09:54 PM
In the end though, force is force. Bands don't actively pull you down anymore than chain weight. They simply provide a linear force based on the distance stretched. Then can however, create more tension per meter stretched then the weight can match with it's fixed value for gravity.

Plus with bands there is constant tension, chains should completely deload if set up correctly. I havn't got my copy of Supertraining near-by, but I remember the strength curves being greatly different.

Sensei
06-16-2007, 01:53 AM
Not trying to be a **** disturber or anything, but to be fair both bands and chains produce a force that varies linearly with distance. There isn't a special force that makes bands different then chains. However, there are some behaviours of bands that make them different then chains.

1. Band tension slopes vs. chain gravity
Both of these produce linear forces (within the breakdown point of bands).
However, the bands can provide a steeper curve than the chain weight, which is just fixed at a rate based on gravity.

2. Direction of force
Bands pull in the direction to where they are anchored. If you anchor them at a non-perpendicular angle to your lift, you will introduce lateral force components due to force in the band being generated along the same angle. Chains always pull directly to the centre of the earth. There is no lateral components added by chains, aside from any that you may introduce by swinging the bar around laterally. I feel that the introduction of these non-vertical forces is what makes the bands more strenuous to use.

In the end though, force is force. Bands don't actively pull you down anymore than chain weight. They simply provide a linear force based on the distance stretched. Then can however, create more tension per meter stretched then the weight can match with it's fixed value for gravity.

FWIW, I find bands beat me up more than chains too. :DTo keep this post at least mildly constructive, I would add that my average bands (depending on how they're anchored and based on my height) add about 180-200lbs of tension at the top of my squat and maybe about 40lbs at the bottom. No, there is nothing magical about bands, but the load increases very quickly as the band stretches - unlike chains which, as I already mentioned, load and deload much smoother. I'd offer a fancy smancy graph, but I'm not smart enough.

betastas
06-16-2007, 07:23 AM
To keep this post at least mildly constructive, I would add that my average bands (depending on how they're anchored and based on my height) add about 180-200lbs of tension at the top of my squat and maybe about 40lbs at the bottom. No, there is nothing magical about bands, but the load increases very quickly as the band stretches - unlike chains which, as I already mentioned, load and deload much smoother. I'd offer a fancy smancy graph, but I'm not smart enough.

The quicker load increase would be a property of the band. If the band constant was high enough, it would provide more tension per meter then the fixed rate (gravity) of the chain. I remember finding this graph on this forum somewhere (I believe it's originally from elitefts). I suspect that the slope on the green band should be a little steeper, but here it is anyways.

Sidior
06-16-2007, 10:33 AM
The quicker load increase would be a property of the band. If the band constant was high enough, it would provide more tension per meter then the fixed rate (gravity) of the chain. I remember finding this graph on this forum somewhere (I believe it's originally from elitefts). I suspect that the slope on the green band should be a little steeper, but here it is anyways.

Ahaha I forgot all about that chart, I'm the one that posted it. I got it from fortified-iron and I think the member from there got it from elite.

betastas
06-16-2007, 10:49 AM
Ahhh, okay, so it was you. I knew someone here had posted it. I had been looking for it earlier to get a rough estimate of the tensions.

Stumprrp
06-17-2007, 01:28 PM
wanna be a real badass? use bands AND chains on the same lift!

anyways, use both, sparingly, dont go out of hand with them like i sometimes do.

Sensei
06-17-2007, 08:45 PM
Honestly, people spend waaaay too much time worrying about exactly how much tension is being added to the bar with bands... In my past logs I listed the kind of band(s) I used and if it was anchored in a special way (reverse, doubled, etc.) - that was it. There's little value in calculating the poundages unless you never squat, bench, or deadlift without them.

http://www.if.uidaho.edu/~chris/docs/CalculatingElasticBandTensions.pdf

http://www.elitefts.com/articles/article-faq/default.asp

If you have the $$, buy a set of minis, regular, and heavy bands and you'll be able to do just about anything and go as heavy as you could possibly want unless you are just crazy, crazy strong.

betastas
06-18-2007, 05:56 PM
Agreed. I do the same as you Sensei.

redFury
06-22-2007, 09:52 AM
Here's a side question... has anyone ever thought about/used chains for non-linear additive resistance?

I would think that feature would make them more appealing than bands... I've been trying to think about this application myself.

Sensei
06-25-2007, 10:58 PM
Here's a side question... has anyone ever thought about/used chains for non-linear additive resistance?
Maybe I'm just dumb, but what do you mean? As in cable work?

redFury
06-26-2007, 07:47 AM
Maybe I'm just dumb, but what do you mean? As in cable work?

Sensei... you? Dumb? I don't think so....

What I mean is that both bands and chains are typically (in my experience) used for linearly adding resistance to the bar. Meaning, for each unit of distance the bar travels, a specific "weight" is added.

With chains however, you can hook them up such that the weight added is NOT linear. Meaning that the specific weight added actually increases... this could be done by attaching the chains every few inches.

Like so (if laid on the ground)

88888888888888888888888888
8888888888888888888888
888888888888888888
88888888888888
8888888888

Do you see what I mean? Just wondered if anyone had tried this. I would think that this would be more beneficial... but I'm no kinesiologist.

Clifford Gillmore
06-26-2007, 08:09 AM
I see what you mean red, its kind of defeating the point of the chains. Chains are to load and deload completely to get the effect they give. Essentially what you would be doing there is emulating the effect of bands.

Kind of like those sleeves some companies are selling that let you attach the chains to sleeve with a leading chain, it eliminates the deload/load effect.

betastas
06-26-2007, 08:28 AM
So an exponential approximation based on linear segments? It would be doable, but needlessly complex. I'd stick with the linear loading.

deeder
06-26-2007, 08:50 AM
So an exponential approximation based on linear segments? It would be doable, but needlessly complex. I'd stick with the linear loading.

Are you sure you're in the right section? Are you even on the right forum?

This isn't WannaBeExcessivelyComplicatedWithRegardsToMyTraining.com :cool:

redFury
06-26-2007, 09:07 AM
Essentially what you would be doing there is emulating the effect of bands.


Bands add linear force however, so it's not the same... the benefit of what I'm talking about is the nonlinear force.


Kind of like those sleeves some companies are selling that let you attach the chains to sleeve with a leading chain, it eliminates the deload/load effect.

Never heard of this before, if its what I asked about that wouldnt surprise me. I was just curious on whether anyone had tried it... sounds like someone had :)


So an exponential approximation based on linear segments? It would be doable, but needlessly complex. I'd stick with the linear loading.

Exactly... exponential. Seems like an interesting idea. I don't think you have to worry about complexity... what I've asked about is really simple to implement.


Are you sure you're in the right section? Are you even on the right forum?

This isn't WannaBeExcessivelyComplicatedWithRegardsToMyTraining.com :cool:

I thought you were an engineer lol... :D. You know you wanna analyze this physics problem!! ;) Should be cake for ya! This is not that complicated... just look at my diagram :).

Everyone, I just wanted an intelligent discussion on how and if this would be beneficial. Being an engineer with this idea in his head... I just had to ask :D

betastas
06-26-2007, 09:46 AM
Are you sure you're in the right section? Are you even on the right forum?

This isn't WannaBeExcessivelyComplicatedWithRegardsToMyTraining.com :cool:

Just using the proper terminology. :drooling:



Exactly... exponential. Seems like an interesting idea. I don't think you have to worry about complexity... what I've asked about is really simple to implement.


It's more complicated to implement then regular bands or chains. Also, as an engineer, you'd know that you keep it simple unless there is a definite benefit to increasing the complexity. Try it out and report back on what you experience. I do not see the merit in going from linear to non-linear though.

TommyBoy
06-26-2007, 02:05 PM
Here's a side question... has anyone ever thought about/used chains for non-linear additive resistance?

I would think that feature would make them more appealing than bands... I've been trying to think about this application myself.
Huh?

Maybe I'm just dumb, but what do you mean? As in cable work?
That's what I was thinking.

Sensei... you? Dumb? I don't think so....

What I mean is that both bands and chains are typically (in my experience) used for linearly adding resistance to the bar. Meaning, for each unit of distance the bar travels, a specific "weight" is added.

With chains however, you can hook them up such that the weight added is NOT linear. Meaning that the specific weight added actually increases... this could be done by attaching the chains every few inches.

Like so (if laid on the ground)

88888888888888888888888888
8888888888888888888888
888888888888888888
88888888888888
8888888888

Do you see what I mean? Just wondered if anyone had tried this. I would think that this would be more beneficial... but I'm no kinesiologist.
Huh?

So an exponential approximation based on linear segments? It would be doable, but needlessly complex. I'd stick with the linear loading.
W
T
F
?

Are you sure you're in the right section? Are you even on the right forum?

This isn't WannaBeExcessivelyComplicatedWithRegardsToMyTraining.com :cool:
Amen brother.

Bands add linear force however, so it's not the same... the benefit of what I'm talking about is the nonlinear force.



Never heard of this before, if its what I asked about that wouldnt surprise me. I was just curious on whether anyone had tried it... sounds like someone had :)



Exactly... exponential. Seems like an interesting idea. I don't think you have to worry about complexity... what I've asked about is really simple to implement.



I thought you were an engineer lol... :D. You know you wanna analyze this physics problem!! ;) Should be cake for ya! This is not that complicated... just look at my diagram :).

Everyone, I just wanted an intelligent discussion on how and if this would be beneficial. Being an engineer with this idea in his head... I just had to ask :D

Just using the proper terminology. :drooling:



It's more complicated to implement then regular bands or chains. Also, as an engineer, you'd know that you keep it simple unless there is a definite benefit to increasing the complexity. Try it out and report back on what you experience. I do not see the merit in going from linear to non-linear though.
My brain hurts from trying to read this stuff. Chains are used for deload at the bottom, then progressive resistance from the floor to the top. Bands aid reversal strength by pulling the weight down faster than gravity, and thus, recruiting more muscle fibers.

You guys are just confusing the s*** outta me!!

redFury
06-26-2007, 03:13 PM
You guys are just confusing the s*** outta me!!

Sorry man, just was thinking about a slightly different way to use chains. You are right about the functions of both bands and chains, but I was contemplating adding a feature onto using the chains. I guess the discussion is now killed.

betastas
06-26-2007, 03:29 PM
He meant something like this.
You'd have a ton of chain weight at the top, but a lot less at the bottom. It's just a fancy way of saying you're adding additional chains to the chains. So the first few inches would be about 5 pounds an inch, then the next few inches would add about 10 pounds an inch, then 15/inch, etc. etc.

I drew a little picture. I only put chains on one side because I'm not an artist and I'm sure nobody cares.

TommyBoy
06-26-2007, 03:47 PM
You'd have a ton of chain weight at the top, but a lot less at the bottom. It's just a fancy way of saying you're adding additional chains to the chains. So the first few inches would be about 5 pounds an inch, then the next few inches would add about 10 pounds an inch, then 15/inch, etc. etc.
This is exactly what the chains are used for in the first place....why not just add more chains if you want more weight???

deeder
06-26-2007, 03:56 PM
This is exactly what the chains are used for in the first place....why not just add more chains if you want more weight???

But come on man! It could be NON-LINEAR!

I honestly don't think the whole idea would work... It'd be like having bands that relax completely at the bottom. When the tension hits you as you come back up it can throw you off.. Now you want to do this 5 or 6 or more times?

RedSpikeyThing
06-26-2007, 04:08 PM
I understand what you're trying to say. BTW, are bands actually linear?


This is exactly what the chains are used for in the first place....why not just add more chains if you want more weight???
Ok, so here's the concept: You find out your squat sticking point is, say, 24" off the ground. You attach a chain and hang a 30 lb dumbell 24" down from the bar. As you squat up, you'll have a sudden 60 lb jump right at your sticking point. This would force you to explode out of the hole really hard.

It would be complicated and probably not necessary, but it would certainly be interesting to try to break a plateau. At worst, it would add some variety to your squats :)

RedSpikeyThing
06-26-2007, 04:08 PM
Just using the proper terminology. :drooling:


This sums about just about every engineer I know.

TommyBoy
06-26-2007, 04:18 PM
Ok, so here's the concept: You find out your squat sticking point is, say, 24" off the ground.
Then set a box at 24" and load up the bar with weight.

RedSpikeyThing
06-26-2007, 04:20 PM
Then set a box at 24" and load up the bar with weight.

that would probably train it just as well, but there's a difference: you get a running start at the chain/dumbell way, whereas box squats are from a dead stop.

TommyBoy
06-26-2007, 04:24 PM
that would probably train it just as well, but there's a difference: you get a running start at the chain/dumbell way, whereas box squats are from a dead stop.
If you strengthen it from a dead stop, then you'll be stronger than doing it from a running start. This way you teach yourself to pause and then quickly explode, where as if you go from the bottom, you are relying purely on your stretch reflex in order to overcome the added weight of the chains/db's.

RedSpikeyThing
06-26-2007, 04:39 PM
If you strengthen it from a dead stop, then you'll be stronger than doing it from a running start. This way you teach yourself to pause and then quickly explode, where as if you go from the bottom, you are relying purely on your stretch reflex in order to overcome the added weight of the chains/db's.

Good point.

Sensei
06-26-2007, 09:18 PM
HAHAHAHA! Wow!

Redfury,
I get what you mean now. I know a lot of people have hooked up plates to rope to emulate loading something like chains. If you wanted to experiment, you could certainly hook up some 5s or 10s along the chain links - probably be fun.