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lowry05
07-19-2007, 12:41 PM
I was told that soy protein was mainly intended for females to take due to the fact that it promotes estrogen growth and can cause 'man boobs'. I can not drink regular milk and would like to know if drinking soy milk with a few of my meals as opposed to water would be helpful in gaining weight.

Unreal
07-19-2007, 01:20 PM
For the price of soy milk, I would just get a jug of nitrean, mix it with water, and drink that. Better protein, better taste and cheaper.

IZich
07-19-2007, 03:25 PM
For the price of soy milk, I would just get a jug of nitrean, mix it with water, and drink that. Better protein, better taste and cheaper.

is there a direct answer to the OP's question? I was wondering the legitimacy of these claims as well.

ddegroff
07-19-2007, 03:41 PM
Search, we have disscussed soy to death.

I prefer to stay away from it.

Wild Cat McCane
07-19-2007, 05:16 PM
no. Man boobs is a myth.

there was an article on here about the benefits of it to men. don't know its creds. But no. soy is not bad.

SDS
07-19-2007, 10:09 PM
I use soy protein and I don't have man titties

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
07-19-2007, 10:38 PM
Soy - Food, Wonder Drug, or Poison? (http://www.mediafire.com/?6yoiwwktaty)

greekboy80
07-20-2007, 07:09 AM
Based on what I've read, I try to avoid soy at all costs. I mean, dont get me wrong, if a product has soybean oil, soy fiber, or soy protein in it i'm not going to freak out about eating it. I'm just not gonna go buy soy protein or soy milk if there is real milk or whey protein around.

I dont understand why people even use it unless they HAVE to. If there are better options around why even take the chance?

SDS
07-20-2007, 08:09 AM
I use it because I don't do to well with dairy milk, and whey. I was doing o.k. with Maximus mixed with water for a couple weeks, but that eventually started getting to me, so I went back to soy. There are some good non-soy plant protein powders but they're just too expensive.

Guido
07-20-2007, 10:54 AM
Do you eat meat, beans (non-soy), or nuts? If so, why not get more of your protein from there?

lowry05
07-20-2007, 11:05 AM
So, go or no go on the soy milk? (Silk, produced by White Wave)

IZich
07-20-2007, 11:22 AM
sounds like it's not a threat. Lowry, do you simply like the taste of soy-milk? If so, go for it.

greekboy80
07-20-2007, 11:33 AM
So, go or no go on the soy milk? (Silk, produced by White Wave)

Do you have any problem with drinking regular milk?

Jinkies
07-21-2007, 02:38 AM
Its good to have protein from all sources.

I make soy milk/whey protein shake mixes and have had good results, infact in a magazine I recently read an article speaking of increased growth in a double blind study from mixing the two compared to just using one also testosterone levels were tested and the soy suffered no loss in test or increase in estrogen levels

sCaRz*Of*PaiN
07-21-2007, 03:06 AM
Its good to have protein from all sources.Not really. Multiple sources, that's fine. ALL sources? You sure about that? Why don't you just eat cat meat then? I don't like soy. And soy does not sit well with me. Chicken, fish, etc. are good sources of protein. And even beans and rice, when combined, create a complete amino acid profile. There's no need to ever eat soy, especially given some of the strange studies I've seen regarding processed soy products.

lowry05
07-21-2007, 07:50 AM
Do you have any problem with drinking regular milk?

Yes, I'm allergic to milk proteins. Whey, Casein, etc.

Alex.V
07-21-2007, 09:58 AM
I actually DO have problems with soy. I avoid taking in too much, but in moderation I see no issue with it.

However, staying with my vegan sister who has nothing BUT soy in her apartment... I do actually have documented issues, physically speaking, from that week.

Mr. D
07-21-2007, 12:03 PM
Im a vegetarian and if i were to eat soy that day, i would eat no more than 15-20g. I hardly eat soy though.

greekboy80
07-23-2007, 07:35 AM
Yes, I'm allergic to milk proteins. Whey, Casein, etc.

Then if you need milk for certin issues then drink it, but IMO, I would try to get protein from other meat sources and use the soy only for cereal, cooking, etc.

Cut150
07-30-2007, 02:51 PM
Okay, I have a question after reading some articles about soy. I had been using soy protein (13 grams a scoop) in my smoothies because it was the only unflavored protein I could walk into a store and get.

Well, because of some of the findings, I had decided to toss the remaining soy protein that I had left, but while looking for another protein powder and going by some of the favorites on the board, most of the whey protein powders have soybeans in them.

So, are most of you like greekboy80 and will go ahead use the whey with the soybeans in it, or do you consider the amount of soy in those powders negligible?

Questor
07-30-2007, 02:53 PM
Not really. Multiple sources, that's fine. ALL sources? You sure about that? Why don't you just eat cat meat then?

^- one of the very few times I've literally laughed out loud reading wbb. Thanks, Scarz!

Built
07-30-2007, 03:22 PM
I tend to avoid soy, but that's because it can be a bit of a goitrogen and I'm always teetering along the edge of low thyroid anyway. I'd rather just stay away from it - besides, I get a lot of my protein from buffalo.

Mmmmm buffalo...

Cut150
07-30-2007, 04:12 PM
Built, I know your PWO shake is usually pretty simple and you make it yourself. Do you use any brand name whey? Does it have soy in it? Does it matter to you?

So far, the only thing I've seen(unless it's going by a different name) without any soy is Nitrean.

Alex.V
07-30-2007, 09:29 PM
I get a lot of my protein from buffalo.

Mmmmm buffalo...

Oh hell yes.

greekboy80
07-31-2007, 07:05 AM
So, are most of you like greekboy80 and will go ahead use the whey with the soybeans in it, or do you consider the amount of soy in those powders negligible?

The whey that I have seen does NOT have ANY soy in the ingrediants....Which kind are you looking at?

KDLMaj
08-02-2007, 11:15 PM
The Soy debate will never end!!

Here are some facts for you:

Studies do not show elevated levels of estrogen in people who consume large amounts of soy. The chemicals in soy that resemble estrogen aren't actually estrogen, and they're thousands of times weaker than what the body produces. The rumor about estrogen levels was started by people who misinterpreted a few studies that looked into soy as an alternative for estrogen therapy (it can be beneficial and without the uterine cancer risk). The testosterone decrease was a rumor started by people who made ridiculous speculation based on the former rumor.

Meat consumption actually decreases your body's ability to absorb nutrients- including protein. Unfortunately, despite what we like to tell ourselves, our bodies aren't well suited to digest meat. Our stomach acids have about 1/10th the HCl that a carnivore's stomach has, and our intestines are WAY too long. Carnivores have very short intestinal tracts. The result is that all of that poorly digested meat is stuck, rotting in your intestines. (Hence the advent of the colonic) If you're getting your protein from meat, you're getting it in a less efficient way. Of course, Whey protein shakes don't make that problem worse- they're easily digested. Though existing rotting meat in your intestinal tract, of course, makes absorbing the nutrients more inefficient.

Milk products are, unfortunately, quite bad for you. Cow's milk is intended to double a 24 lb calf's weight roughly every 47 days until it reaches 2,000 lbs. Up to 70% of cheese is pure fat. Additionally, despite what the dairy industry spent decades telling us, milk and other dairy products leech calcium from your bones. Particularly for women, this is a big problem. It increases the chances of osteoperosis. The three countries in the world with the highest rates of osteoperosis happen to be the third countries that consume the most dairy. The only tribe in sub-Saharan Africa that reports incidents of osteoperosis happens to be the only tribe that raises cows and drinks cow's milk. The pastuerization process for milk is used because the virii, bacteria, and resulting puss (largely from the wounds milking machines leave on cow udders) are so numerous and dangerous that we can't just drink the milk straight out (this is largely due to the conditions the cows are kept in- not necessarily the case otherwise- but that's most of the milk you're getting). That same process destroys most of the nutrients in milk, which is why they 'fortify' milk afterwards. Unfortunately, your body can't as efficiently use fortified nutrients. And finally, caseine, a protein found in all dairy products, is addictive. Remember, nature has a vested interest in keeping babies (Of whatever species) nursing. Caseine itself isnt' addictive, but when it goes through digestion, it turns into morphone and other opiates. (That's why we love dairy so much)

Additionally, the pesticides and other chemicals we inject into livestock (which are passed easily into milk- nearly 100% of all cheeses sold in the US show traces of pesticides often thousands of times above FDA requirements). The major problem in this context is that among the most common side-effects from these chemicals are: increased appetite, decreased metabolism, and decreased ability to metabolize existing fat cells as well as stimulated production of fat cells.


As far as soy's inherent value...it's full of antioxidants which speed muscle recovery and allow for better performance overall. It's the only protein other than whey with a 1.0 PDCAAS, so it's a 'complete' protein. (Anyone who tells you it isn't is factually incorrect. Poor research lead to that conclusion a long time ago, but even the UN finally came out with reports clarifying that soy was as complete a protein as any meat-based protein) It also leads to reductions in testicular cancer, ovarian cancer, breast cancer, and prostate cancer. Diets high in protein like the ones bodybuilders tend to consume increase the rates of various kinds of cancers- including these. Whether they're from high protein in general or the sources of protein people are using (meat and dairy- which increase rates of various cancers substantially) remains unclear, but it's a fact of bodybuilding life. Utilizing soy as a protein source will help mitigate a lot of these health problems.

I hope that helps kids!

Don't let anyone fool you into thinking that eating meat over soy is healthier or more beneficial. So if you're going to increase one or the other- soy is your best bet.

Alex.V
08-03-2007, 05:44 AM
I hope that helps kids!


Not really. I've seen the same argument posted before. It's still slightly stupid propaganda cut and pasted from the mouth of pro-soy advocates, and it's still full of holes.

Your first paragraph already shows the number one reason I hate this argument: It completely misses the point. Nobody ever argued "higher level of estrogen" in people who take soy. That's stupid. Isoflavones are NOT estrogen. By definition. Nor would an exogenous compound similar in structure to estrogen lower testosterone. Nobody was arguing that. So you try to shoot down two points nobody was making.

And that's just in the first few sentences. I could go on, but breakfast is ready.


God I'm pissed off this morning, and reading that junk didn't help.

Clifford Gillmore
08-03-2007, 05:56 AM
Soy is dog food.

Alex.V
08-03-2007, 06:00 AM
Oh my god. Help me. I just read more of that post and now I want to shoot myself. Or the guy who posted it. Casein is now converted into an opiate. Holy crap.

I nominate that one for dumbest post of the month. In this case, under the category of:

"painfully transparent attempt to pass of pseudo-science as real science by an individual who knows absolutely NOTHING about chemistry, biology, or any real subject".

Please don't post that kind of crap anymore. It pains me.

Stackattack
08-03-2007, 08:10 AM
Here are some facts for you:

*drivel*

More or less everything you just said is complete and utter ****.

greekboy80
08-03-2007, 08:13 AM
Oh my god. Help me. I just read more of that post and now I want to shoot myself. Or the guy who posted it. Casein is now converted into an opiate. Holy crap.

I nominate that one for dumbest post of the month. In this case, under the category of:

"painfully transparent attempt to pass of pseudo-science as real science by an individual who knows absolutely NOTHING about chemistry, biology, or any real subject".

Please don't post that kind of crap anymore. It pains me.

Agreed, That was bunch of Bull*****. Never take the advice from a first time poster.

Mr. KDLmaj, "what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul". (Billy Madison)

Alex.V
08-03-2007, 09:05 AM
Actually, I take it all back, I did learn a few things:

1) Your intestines do not have bacteria in them to aid digestion. In fact, your intestines are not capable of digesting protein. This is why meat will rot in them.

2) Soy isoflavones are 2000 times weaker than estrogen. Weaker in terms of binding affinity, absorption rate, conversion rate, or max bench, I don't know. But I do know it's true, I read it on the internet. However, these same weaker isoflavones still manage to confer health benefits.

3) We have 1/10th the HCL that carnivores have. I'm not sure if this is molarity or total volume, but this is actually the sole determinant in the quality of digestion.

4) Milk has fat in it. I had no idea.

5) Milk leeches calcium from your bones. This is why it's so bad for babies.

6) Fortified nutrients are magically different than natural nutrients. Once they're extracted then put back into things, they become less effective. This is true, I read it on the internet.

7) Casein, a protein, can spontaneously convert into 7,8-didehydro-4,5-epoxy-17-methylmorphinan-3,6-diol. aka morphine. Looking at the chemical structures, I can see how an amino acid can get converted into a five-ring structure using only a few digestive enzymes. In fact, I think this reaction was on my organic chemistry final a few years ago.

8) Apparently we inject pesticides into livestock.

9) Meat causes cancer.

10) Dairy causes cancer.

11) These days, even a full page of bull**** can be referred to as "facts".

KDLMaj
08-03-2007, 12:00 PM
Actually, the initial poster was concerned about 'man boobs', which is the higher rates of estrogen concern. So the post was right on target. Others were suggesting increasing meat intake for protein. I offered reasons why soy was an ideal bodybuilding supplement and why choosing to increase one's protein through meat as opposed to soy wasn't a great idea.

I'm curious. Did anyone bother to look up any of the facts in my post before decrying them as psuedo-science? Or did the conclusions simply not 'jive' with personal perceptions of diet? It's obviously all made up, right? And if there are numerous studies demonstrating the accuracy of the assertions, they must be fake. "We'll throw her in a lake. If she drowns, she's innocent. If she doesn't, she's a witch!"

Well, here are a few easy-to-find citations that should help out.

This one is just Wikiipedia, but the citations are in the references section of the page on Casein. There's more research documenting overall higher levels of opiates in the bodies of those who consume dairy regularly. Cheese is actually the biggest culprit since casein is specifically isolated and used in larger quantities than found in milk:

Casein has been documented to break down in the stomach to produce the peptide casomorphin, an opioid that appears to act primarily as a histamine releaser [4]. Casomorphine is suspected by some sources to aggravate the symptoms of autism [5].

This is from babyreference.com. The article does a good job of summarizing available research on the subject of milk consumption and osteoporosis. Note that the UN has published research on the subject as well:
babyreference.com/MilkingYourBones.htm

While dairy promotions also include praise for the protein of milk as well, this protein may be more of a problem in osteoporosis than calcium could be a solution. The animal proteins of meat and dairy products cause calcium loss.9 The level of calcium needed in the diet depends greatly on the animal protein intake.10 For many of the high animal protein diets of Americans, it may not be possible to consume enough calcium in the diet to compensate for the amount lost to these high-acid proteins.11 For this reason, Americans have among the highest osteoporosis rates in the world, while their dairy intake is also among the highest. Doubled animal protein causes 50 percent more calcium loss. Yet, when a high protein intake is soy-based, a positive calcium balance can be maintained with only 450 mg of calcium per day.12


I could go on point-by-point with some of the other claims made (intestines don't digest, by the way, they absorb- okay so I went with one more), but you get the point. People should look into their facts before decrying them as either valid or inaccurate. Just because it goes against what we've standardly accepted doesn't make it BS, nor does it make a poster ignorant. I don't mind saying, however, that comments expressing disbelief that casein metabolizes into opiates (which is quite verified to be true) coupled with a critique of the ignorance of anyone who claims it are quite ironic.

Alex.V
08-03-2007, 12:22 PM
I strongly urge you to read the studies referenced in the wikipedia article. For future reference, please don’t bring up wikipedia as a credible source. The studies cited in the portion you reference do nothing to back up the primary claim you make, which is that casein is addictive. Yes, the article says it can be. But notice the citation is BEFORE this conclusion. This is the classic bull**** supplement company take of “theory, therefore tangentially referenced conclusion”. It is a HELL of an unsubstantiated leap to go from “casein breaks down into certain amounts of casomorphin” to “Casein becomes morphine, which is why it’s addictive. Re-read your post, and perhaps you might understand why your statement is, at best, mis-worded. There is a big difference between what you said and what the science shows. In fact, the few studies I've seen on the addictive properties of casomorphin specifically show that it is NOT addictive. And all the people I've seen claim that it is have NO direct evidence to back this up. Again, selective interpretation of existing data, and logical leaps off the deep end. Incidentally, this is why few credible scientists work for supp companies. Read the studies and understand their limitations. Hope this helps, kid.

In addition, babyreference.com is an extremely biased source, selectively pulling in data and studies that seem to prove their point, while ignoring all evidence to the contrary. The jury is still out on any link between milk intake and bone loss/weakness, and to claim a theory as fact is disingenuous in this case. And this has been discussed before on this forum. And stop quoting from a site that has one purpose: To market the site owner’s book on “natural parenting.”

Digestion does continue in the small intestine. I don’t know who told you that the chemical breakdown of food stops at the stomach, but chances are, they were lying to you. Now, if you’d said that digestion stops in the colon (though bacteria arguably continue the process there), that may have been more correct, but still ignores the fact that if there were undigested meat byproducts in there, we would all be dead from massive sepsis.

Don’t patronize me or others here by saying “we should look into our facts”. The fact that little credence was given to your claims is due to your post being the same level of drivel that’s been torn apart here many times before.

Built
08-03-2007, 12:35 PM
Built, I know your PWO shake is usually pretty simple and you make it yourself. Do you use any brand name whey? Does it have soy in it? Does it matter to you?

So far, the only thing I've seen(unless it's going by a different name) without any soy is Nitrean.

ON Double Rich Chocolate, when I can bring myself to give up a few ounces of buffalo.

I go by taste alone. I use so little PP, it's really the only consideration for me. That being said, I won't buy a soy product. The rare time I eat soy, I like it deep-fried and topped with bonito.

greekboy80
08-03-2007, 01:22 PM
So far, the only thing I've seen(unless it's going by a different name) without any soy is Nitrean.

Where and what are you looking at? 100% WHEY does not have any soy...... that would dispute the 100% Whey. Get it?

redFury
08-03-2007, 01:34 PM
I've read these articles that you've mentioned in response to Belial's call-out... and to be honest these articles are very biased and even contradict themselves. The 2nd one even call's the NIH out for "conspiracy" for the dairy industry. There are a lot of issues at hand here, many more than you've mentioned for sure.

My question is... why are you here? With those two posts being your only two posts... what do you hope to accomplish? Moreover, what are you credentials? In order to truly be persuasive, you must be able to present and argue substantially better than you have... however I don't understand your point in arguing at all. I don't understand why you are here... with only two posts. What organization are you from and what is your title? Why have you come to tell us these things?

This is the internet, after all... and not a town hall.

Guido
08-03-2007, 02:07 PM
Fury is right on. The first thing I thought when I read KDLMaj's post was "This guy must be a soy lobbyist, or someone who works for a supp company that sells soy protein."

Cut150
08-03-2007, 02:37 PM
Where and what are you looking at? 100% WHEY does not have any soy...... that would dispute the 100% Whey. Get it?

If you look at the actual label on a lot of the 100% Whey products, then you will see that they have added in soy.

For example:

http://www.optimumnutrition.com/products/100-whey-gold-standard-p-201.html

When you click on the nutrition info, it says:

Contains: Milk, wheat and soy ingredients.

Get it?

Built
08-03-2007, 03:46 PM
The only soy ingredient I saw in the one I use is lecithin. There's no soy protein in it.

Cut150
08-03-2007, 03:59 PM
From my understanding and the numerous threads on this board, lecithin is derived from soybeans. Someone on this board, or at least someone that used to be on this board, has a severe allergy to soy and he posted up the many names that soy goes by in foods.

Gum arabic
Bulking agent
Carob
Emulsifier
Guar gum
Hydrolysed vegetable protein
Lecithin
Miso
MSG
Protein extender
Soy flour
Soy nuts
Soy panthenol
Soy protein isolate or concentrate
Soy sauce
Soybean oil
Stabilizer
Starch
Textured vegetable protein
Thickener
Tofu
Vegetable broth
Vegetable gum
Vegetable starch


Also, this was an article that I read on T-Nation as suggested in one of the soy threads on this board:

http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459516


T-Nation: In your book, you write about "hidden soy" and "undeclared soy content" and "aliases." Sounds scary. What is all that exactly?

Dr. Daniel: It’s very scary, at least for people with soy allergies. As I mentioned before, there's at least trace amounts of soy in the majority of supermarket and health food store products. People who are allergic must avoid all soy and can experience terrible allergic reactions from even a trace of it.

T-Nation: Are a lot of people allergic to soy?

Dr. Daniel: Soy is now one of the top eight allergens and some experts put it as high as in the top four. People with the highest risk are children who are allergic to peanuts and have asthma. There have been fatalities because of hidden soy.

By "hidden soy" I mean soy where you wouldn't expect it. For example, the soy protein found in Bumblebee canned tuna, in a fast-food burger, whipped cream or in a loaf of bread.

By "undeclared soy" I mean soy that's not listed on food labels. For a variety of reasons, labels aren’t always accurate. Manufacturers can be careless and neglect to mention soy. Perhaps the recipe was changed and the label hasn’t caught up.

Undeclared soy is also a possibility from cross-contamination caused by soy used in other products produced at the same facility. For people with soy allergies, soy dust in the air from the bulk bins at health food stores can be a problem. So can a trace amount of soy that has rubbed off from cardboard packaging in which soy protein isolate has been used as a bonding ingredient.

By "aliases" I mean commonly used ingredients that people don't recognize as soy. Some good examples would be "textured vegetable protein "or "boullion" or "vegetable oil." These may or may not contain soy — usually they do.

That's why my original question was whether people considered the amount of soy that is in various products negligible.

Built
08-03-2007, 04:17 PM
This thread was about estrogen, not allergies.

Cut150
08-03-2007, 06:49 PM
But, my question was about soy in general and its inclusion in whey powders. Estrogen, allergies, they are all reported issues with soy and a link was posted about soy being a wonder drug or poison, so I don't think I was going too far off the topics presented in the thread.

Max Thunder
08-04-2007, 05:52 PM
Meat consumption actually decreases your body's ability to absorb nutrients- including protein. Unfortunately, despite what we like to tell ourselves, our bodies aren't well suited to digest meat. Our stomach acids have about 1/10th the HCl that a carnivore's stomach has, and our intestines are WAY too long. Carnivores have very short intestinal tracts. The result is that all of that poorly digested meat is stuck, rotting in your intestines. (Hence the advent of the colonic) If you're getting your protein from meat, you're getting it in a less efficient way. Of course, Whey protein shakes don't make that problem worse- they're easily digested. Though existing rotting meat in your intestinal tract, of course, makes absorbing the nutrients more inefficient.


Most stupid peace of text ever. Rotting meat in the intestinal tract! 1/10th of a carnivore's stomach mean we might have a pH of 1-3 rather than one of 0-2, and carnivores definitely require more so they can eat raw and not-so-fresh meat. We do have a relatively short intestinal tract. I hate hearing that bull****.

Eat your meat and stay away from that soy crap. I'm pretty sure there'd be much more happy people too if wheat was avoided by everybody.

Soy should be used to make some biodiesel and nothing else. DIE SOY DIE (and that's not the German "DIE").

Alex.V
08-04-2007, 11:16 PM
. DIE SOY DIE (and that's not the German "DIE").

The soy the?


:)

KDLMaj
08-08-2007, 03:35 PM
Most stupid peace of text ever. Rotting meat in the intestinal tract! 1/10th of a carnivore's stomach mean we might have a pH of 1-3 rather than one of 0-2, and carnivores definitely require more so they can eat raw and not-so-fresh meat. We do have a relatively short intestinal tract. I hate hearing that bull****.


You may want to actually read up on what you just posted. I'm not going to go into it in-depth, but if your stomach gets to a pH lower than 4-5, you're in big trouble and need to see a doctor pronto. Meat takes 4.5 days on average to get through your intestinal tract, as opposed to vegetables which take 1.5 days. This is the reason why people suggest fasting as theraputic, it gives your body a chance to clean out the rotting crap in your intestines. And your intestinal tract, when pulled straight out (ignoring the folds), is the surface area of a tennis court. Your digestion tract doesn't even resemble an omnivore's digestion, which is almost uniformly a slightly modified carnivorous digestion tract (raccoons, bears, etc).

Use your heads people. Use your heads.

Alex.V
08-08-2007, 06:50 PM
You may want to actually read up on what you just posted. I'm not going to go into it in-depth, but if your stomach gets to a pH lower than 4-5, you're in big trouble and need to see a doctor pronto.



Please DO get into it in depth. This is incorrect. I would like to see your source.

Stomach pH is not constant, it depends on quite a few factors, but a pH of 4-5 is NOT normal.




Meat takes 4.5 days on average to get through your intestinal tract, as opposed to vegetables which take 1.5 days. This is the reason why people suggest fasting as theraputic, it gives your body a chance to clean out the rotting crap in your intestines. And your intestinal tract, when pulled straight out (ignoring the folds), is the surface area of a tennis court. Your digestion tract doesn't even resemble an omnivore's digestion, which is almost uniformly a slightly modified carnivorous digestion tract (raccoons, bears, etc).

Use your heads people. Use your heads.

The meat is not rotting. And again, I would love to see your 4.5 days source, as this is also incorrect. There are many kinds of "meat", and many kinds of vegetables. When you start generalizing across the entire category of food, it suggests to me you're quoting wikipedia or propaganda sites again.

Surface area doesn't indicate much of anything with regards to the digestive tract, except to emphasize how QUICKLY nutrients are absorbed. Your lungs have a similarly huge surface area, but this does not slow gas flow.

And, again, please elaborate on how the human digestive tract doesn't resemble an omnivore's. We are descended from omnivores. Yes, apes are primarily vegetarian, but we are not apes. What exactly our ancestors ate is still under debate. Certain ancestral species may have been vegan, but others adapted to be almost carnivorous. This depended on environment. So a generalization cannot be made either way.



Now you've gotten to the point where you're trying to poke little holes in rebuttals, while not defending any of your points. This is usually the sign of a completely lost argument.

Chubrock
08-08-2007, 07:03 PM
Please DO get into it in depth. This is incorrect. I would like to see your source.

Stomach pH is not constant, it depends on quite a few factors, but a pH of 4-5 is NOT normal.




The meat is not rotting. And again, I would love to see your 4.5 days source, as this is also incorrect. There are many kinds of "meat", and many kinds of vegetables. When you start generalizing across the entire category of food, it suggests to me you're quoting wikipedia or propaganda sites again.

Surface area doesn't indicate much of anything with regards to the digestive tract, except to emphasize how QUICKLY nutrients are absorbed. Your lungs have a similarly huge surface area, but this does not slow gas flow.

And, again, please elaborate on how the human digestive tract doesn't resemble an omnivore's. We are descended from omnivores. Yes, apes are primarily vegetarian, but we are not apes. What exactly our ancestors ate is still under debate. Certain ancestral species may have been vegan, but others adapted to be almost carnivorous. This depended on environment. So a generalization cannot be made either way.



Now you've gotten to the point where you're trying to poke little holes in rebuttals, while not defending any of your points. This is usually the sign of a completely lost argument.





Now, now, now Belial. What happened to us trying the whole "nice" thing?

Alex.V
08-08-2007, 07:46 PM
That WAS nice. Please note that I didn't call him a ****ing moron.

Chubrock
08-08-2007, 07:48 PM
Touche.