Cobra, Nautilus made some pretty killer machines in their day. Think about this, most of those machines were designed in the 70s and most equipment manufacturers have copied a lot of their designs in an inferior fashion. My point is that they knew what they were doing and a lot of their ideas are based on sound logic like that machine you enjoyed. Anyway, I wish I had one of those.....
Hmmm, at the end of the day if you listen to everyones opinions you get confused so stick to what feels best for you. I use wide grip overhand and I feel this works great for my lats. When I do underhand my lats don`t feel as if theyve been worked at all but I get a hell of a pump in the biceps. On the pullover note I feel it in my lats big time and hardly feel it in the pecs, everybodys different remember that.
Sorry to go off the subject here guys but I cant post a new topic, what am I doing wrong? It comes up on screen but when I go to see if I have been replied to it hasn`t even been posted.
I'll say this, the question was which is the best, I answered it. If you do chins of any sort it is better than nothing at all, and probably better than a lot of exercises for the back. The only way that your chest gets involved to any appreciable degree in pullovers is if you conciously isometrically contract them. All you have to do is look at how the pectoralis major attach to the upper arm to see that they are not a prime mover in this exercise. I'm sure Cobra does his in a style that makes his chest contract forcibly. I would also suggest that everyone tries both styles for themselves and then make their own decision.
Ok I dont want to get in a big deabate over this, but palms facing towards is not better than palm facing away, there different thats all. Both have their advantages, and both work different part of the back, so like chris said, experiment with both. For example, the reason why they say that wide grip= wide lats is because it stretches the scapula more than closer grip. Wider apart scapulas=wider lats, simply put. And closer grip, like chris said again, have their advantages, like better ROM and allowing to use more weight.
They key is variety my friends.
How much difference does close or wide grip make in terms of what back muscles are used?
I have to respond to your last post Frankster. Wide grip chins cannot and do not stretch the scapula. That is just b.s. that uneducated bodybuilding writers keep regurgitating. The myriad of muslces which insert and originate into the scapula will not allow you to stretch them. Tendons do not stretch and remain stretched. They have some flexibility (quite little), then they tear! Ligaments are more flexible, but when the tension is released they snap back into shape. That statement is a lot like the one about pullovers stretching the rib cage. Doesn't happen (at least not in adults). No, wide and narrow grip chins don't work different muscles either. Some muscles may be stressed more than others, but they both work the same muscles. I also don't believe that variety is the key. I suggested that the readers try both styles and see which works best for them.
Thats what i meant by worked different part. And i wont bother to argue anymore on this topic its not worth my time, I'm sorry if I confused anyone.
Charles Polquin likes using chins and pull-ups, here is a article on what he thinks the best upper back exercises are http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_85back.html
bump for thorizine
I bumped this for you, if you notice it where I got the info from in the pull up discussion on another site.
(I admit I was bad and cut and paste some sections, not all though, but my communicating skills are not the best, and I am fighting a fair bit of ignorance). So I took the easy way out.
i hope it helps.
Oooh! Its one of our old scrappin' threads from last year!
What the hell ever happend to Cobra, anyway?
Underhand chins are recommended over wide-grip overhand chins? Now thats really hard to believe. I am really surprised.
I love chinups and they are my favourite exercise, I always love hanging by any bars overhead.
wide grip and narrow grip, supinated or pronated all will give you a different looking back.
I wouldn't do any one over the other, but I think that the wide grip ones show who is the expert as they are a lot harder. Make ur weakest link stronger by doing ****loads of chins, like 100 per day.
a lot of guys can do the underhand grip just because they have good biceps.
In fact, it depends greatly upon how you concentrate during the exercise. It is possible to mentally use less of ur biceps in the exercise when you get good at them, just from shifting your attention to a stable movement of the muscles in the back. And if ur biceps are a bit weak then do more chins to bring them in line with the strength of your back.
this is why I started doing chins, when I lost my symmetry from weight training incorrectly, so I went back to basics for a while with just chins pushups and dips of all shapes and sizes.
hmmm this is a nostalgic thread
cobra was mason's alter ego ;)
I thought that was Craig James:rolleyes: . Anyway, Cobra was supposed to be Gyno Ryno's uncle, right?
I prefer a not-so-wide grip palms facing outward grip on pull-ups. I find I can minimize bicep involvement and maximize the workload put on the lats this way. Hands about 6" wider than shoulder width on each side and pulling elbows in and forward during the movement is how I do them. I'll lean my body back and arch my back significantly. At the top of the movement, I keep the bar as far away from my chin as possible, so that my elbows barely reach a 90 degree angle. My goal isn't simply to do as many as possible, rather I want to do as many as possible while isolating my lats as much as possible. I can do 25-30 pullups the way most people do them - my way, I can only do 12-14 usually.
Chris and others (mostly Chris),
1. The easy conclusion to draw is that palms facing towards you is better than palms facing away in a shoulder wide grip chinup (ie. stronger biceps won't fail early and deny your lats a workout)
2. The interesting question is regarding wide grip vs shoulder wide grip.
On one hand you have the fact that the range of motion for lats is less (bad)
But at the same time, you are also limiting the range of motion and maybe the amount of force required by the biceps which may, in fact, isolate the lats proportionally more.
This may sound confusing but let's take an analogy. If your lower back is failing before your quads in a squat then what is better for your quads, full squats or a partial leg extension?
P.S. I've read one theory that says that wide grip palms outward are "felt" in the back more because they stress the Teres muscle more.
chins = facing you
pull ups = away from you
A few questions (thanks for bumping this body) ;)
1) how wide a grip generally should you go while doing curl grip chins? I have to admit, I've never really done them (always did palms opposing) and I tried them today. They felt odd, and they seemed to hit my lats differently. I'll experiment and see what happens.
2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but as you said, your lats are stronger then your biceps (unless I misinterpreted). Wouldn't you want to put your lats in a more susceptable state? Or are you doing this by doing it the curl method.
3) The object of the movement is to attempt to contract your lats. Don't you put your lats in a better contractile position with a palms opposing grip, chest slightly puffed out?
4) Which movement offers the maximal stimulation to the lats?
Thanks, sorry if these have already been answered. it's almost 3am out here ;)
After doing curl-grip, shoulder-width chins yesterday, I will honestly admit that I prefer tham FAR over wide-grip overhand. Curl-grip hurts my wrists a little but keeps 100% tension on my lats throughout the entire movement. I could keep my lats contracted literally throughout the whole set.
"2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but as you said, your lats are stronger then your biceps (unless I misinterpreted). Wouldn't you want to put your lats in a more susceptable state? Or are you doing this by doing it the curl method."
Curl method as you call it
(i) puts the lats through a greater range of motion
(ii) puts the biceps in their strongest position so that your biceps will be less likely to fail first
"3) The object of the movement is to attempt to contract your lats. Don't you put your lats in a better contractile position with a palms opposing grip, chest slightly puffed out? "
The direction of your palms will not do this, it will only weaken your biceps. The interesting question is whether there is any merit to a very wide grip (which is only really possible using an overhand or palms facing).
4) Which movement offers the maximal stimulation to the lats?
Again, curl grip, shoulder wide puts the lats through the maximum range of motion and gives you the best chance of fatiguing your lats since your biceps are less likely to fail.
One theory as to why some people "feel" the wide grip more is that it stimulates the Teres major.
Here is an article on the topic:
Great reply bro. Excellent source of info too I completely agree.