Extreme weight loss/muscle maintenance plan

[bobbydeniro]

Hi everyone, first time poster!

I'm a 22 year old female, 5'5" and 132 Ibs.

Basically, I've been losing weight/working out for about 6 months now and have lost a good deal of weight, something like 20Ibs. However, looking at my body, it appears to have been mostly muscle and water, because I'm still a bit wobbly looking in places. I have only a couple of weeks before I go on holiday where I plan to wear a bikini and really want to lose some of this flab.

I was recently intrigued by a rapid weight loss diet that claims to spare muscle but lose large amounts of fat in a short time.It is called '2 shakes and 1 chicken salad', and as the name implies, you drink a meal replacement protein shake for breakfast and lunch, and then have a large salad with a couple of chicken breasts for dinner. I am guessing that the calories on this diet add up to about 1,000 - 1,200 per day.

Since up til this point, my training has been almost exclusively cardio-based, I am starting this '2 shakes 1 salad' diet as well as starting to do resistance training 2-3 times a week, with a short cardio session on 2 of those days in addition.

I understand that these calories are too low for a long-term diet, and of course I don't plan to follow the diet for much longer than 2 weeks, just up until my holiday. Yes, it's a crash diet and yes, it's against most of the cardinal diet rules people talk about on other websites, but I'm fairly desperate, and all I want to know is, will it work? Remember that I'm a first-time weight-trainer and as I understand it, people like me can expect to see something called 'Newbie Gains' in my first few weeks of starting a new lifting program. I am also aware that because of the high protein content of the diet, I am unlikely to lose much muscle. Is this true?

Thanks so much for your thoughts in advance. I know that a lot of people will blast me for doing something like this, but I am usually sensible in these respects and for once just need fast results.

[Behemoth]

1000-1200 for a 132lb female isn't even all that low. If you can stick with it, yes it will work.

[bobbydeniro]

1000-1200 for a 132lb female isn't even all that low. If you can stick with it, yes it will work.

Really? That's brilliant news, I posted this on another forum called Livestrong and the members on there were telling me that I need something like 2500 per day and that 1200 would be the maintenance amount for a toddler!

What sort of weight loss can I expect to see in the 2 week period, as well as (if any) muscle gains?

Thanks!

[Behemoth]

In two weeks? I wouldn't expect a whole lot of either.

[bobbydeniro]

Ah, ok.

But if you're saying that those calories aren't too low then theoretically I could follow the plan for longer than 2 weeks? That guy Rusty on Fitness Black Book says that fat loss should be rapid and visible after a couple of weeks, so I assumed that it was a good amount of time to do it for. Confused now!

[Behemoth]

It will be rapid. But only so much can happen in 2 weeks, and even if you lose 150% the weight you would at a more moderate deficit, its still not a lot of weight given the time.

You may be able to follow that for an extended duration or you may not. if you're inexperienced in dieting I wouldn't suggest trying to use an intake less than 11-12 calories/pound for an extended period unless you already knew it was too many for you to lose on.

[bobbydeniro]

It will be rapid. But only so much can happen in 2 weeks, and even if you lose 150% the weight you would at a more moderate deficit, its still not a lot of weight given the time.

Thanks for clearing that up.

One last thing - as for muscle building, if I am to continue following the high-protein low-carb thing, what are my chances of building muscle in the long term? Do I have to up the calories in order to see any significant changes in the future, or is it possible to build in such a big deficit?

[Behemoth]

Thanks for clearing that up.

One last thing - as for muscle building, if I am to continue following the high-protein low-carb thing, what are my chances of building muscle in the long term? Do I have to up the calories in order to see any significant changes in the future, or is it possible to build in such a big deficit?

Its extremely unlikely you will build any muscle in your deficit (regardless of protein intake). Perhaps for a short time but I would not expect it to be very much, very noticeable, or very long lived. Even in a surplus real muscle building is relatively slow and can even halt at times. Expecting much in a deficit would be pretty optomistic. Being a woman the cards are stacked even moreso against you for muscle building, unfortunately so.

[colinS3]

That's a pretty small amount of calories, but I suppose if you're really desperate and it's only for two weeks it'll be okay. You shouldn't maintain that level of calories after your trip though, especially with all of the exercise you're going to be doing. You're basically putting your body into something called "starvation mode" which means it's primary objective concerning food is to store it as fat.

With that said, you should slowly build up your calories to a normal level once the two weeks of this diet is over. If you still want to lose weight once you reach a normal amount of calories, only drop your caloric intake by about 300 calories. That kind of decrease with exercise should allow you to lose around a pound a week (maybe 2), which is optimal. Keep that up until you reach your target weight. If you stop losing weight before your target weight is reached, just drop another couple hundred calories off of your diet. Just don't go too low or you'll hit starvation mode again and that definitely isn't a good place to be for extended periods of time.

[bobbydeniro]

Thanks so much for those replies! Very useful info. I'm slightly confused still about the muscle building aspect of all this for certain reasons - about a year ago, when I first joined a gym, I started doing Body Pump classes about twice a week for around a 2 month period. I was eating at a severe calorie deficit, quite dangerously netting about 800-1000 calories, and probably not getting close to adequate protein. However, within about 3 weeks of doing Body Pump classes, I noticed visible muscle definition, especially in my legs, shoulders and the v-shaped bit in the bottom of my abs above my hipbones. Was this just due to fat loss, as opposed to building muscle? Because it truly seemed like I'd built up muscle where there was none before, even though this seems impossible based on what I've been told in this thread. Again, apologies if this is annoying to have to explain over and over.

With that said, you should slowly build up your calories to a normal level once the two weeks of this diet is over. If you still want to lose weight once you reach a normal amount of calories, only drop your caloric intake by about 300 calories. That kind of decrease with exercise should allow you to lose around a pound a week (maybe 2), which is optimal. Keep that up until you reach your target weight. If you stop losing weight before your target weight is reached, just drop another couple hundred calories off of your diet. Just don't go too low or you'll hit starvation mode again and that definitely isn't a good place to be for extended periods of time.

This is also a point of confusion for me - I really don't know what my 'normal' calorie level is anymore.

I've basically been eating at the 1200-1400 level (for periods of weeks when I'm being good) and going way off the calorie charts in recent weeks due to college-related stresses (bad, I know), i.e. bingeing. This has resulted in a fairly precarious metabolism, I think, because it seems as though anything I do causes a virtually instant change in my body, and I am not really sure what my 'perfect', 'normal' calorie goal is. I really don't want to put on weight in trying to experiment to find that number, so trial and error isn't really on the cards for me. I know there are online calculators and BMR measurements I can use, but I really feel that my metabolism doesn't work the way it once did due to months of sporadic dieting and overeating.

Obviously I'll follow your advice, Cman, and build up slowly 100 calories at a time, but do you have any advice on how I can figure out what my magic number is? My workouts aren't ridiculously intense, though I am starting to go for it with my weights. I only ever do about half an hour at most of steady-state cardio a few times a week, so calorie expenditure isn't huge and other than that I live a fairly sedentary life.

[Behemoth]

"Starvation mode" is more myth than truth. While unfavorable things often come with extreme deficits, your body "holding onto its fat" is not one of them.

[Sean S]

I've worked with several females around your same size, weight, and age, including my wife. With all of them they would would slowly get leaner on 1500-1800 calories a day doing ~4 days a week of lifting and moderate cardio. They were also able to demonstrate some visible muscle, but not exteme amounts. The key was staying in that calorie range consistently. Going lower than that almost always ended up with some sort of rebound binge because they simply felt too restricted and it didn't really speed up the fat loss process all that much. In my opinion dropping below this calorie range is unnecessary for most females who exercise regularly unless it is short-term for some sort of physique competition.
Also make sure you get the binging issue under control. This is a problem with more women than most people would think. It can be a real struggle, so get professional help if you need to. Periods of binging can be damaging both physically and psychologically. It's also a reason I wouldn't restrict the calorie intake too much as it sets you up for a binge if you are prone that anyway.

[IronRanger]

You can look into the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook by Lyle McDonald: http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7

All the info you'll need is on the site, or you could buy the book. Basically, you'd set your protein requirements first and you'll only eat low fat protein such as: skinless chicken breast, tuna, super lean ground beef, etc Then, he adds essential fats (EFA) with fish oil. The rest is fibrous carbs: cauliflower, broccoli, etc.

The diet can also be extended, but usually with added re-feeds.

[Behemoth]

You can look into the Rapid Fat Loss Handbook by Lyle McDonald: http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7

All the info you'll need is on the site, or you could buy the book. Basically, you'd set your protein requirements first and you'll only eat low fat protein such as: skinless chicken breast, tuna, super lean ground beef, etc Then, he adds essential fats (EFA) with fish oil. The rest is fibrous carbs: cauliflower, broccoli, etc.

The diet can also be extended, but usually with added re-feeds.

Almost linked her to this book in my first post.

[bobbydeniro]

Almost linked her to this book in my first post.

Wow, that really is some interesting info! I guess because I have very little money at the moment, (and very little 'real food' protein in the house) the meal replacement protein shakes diet I'm doing is similar enough to Lyle McDonald's plan? I mean, I'm still on low calories and very high protein, so in essence it is the same diet, right?

I'm just about to finish day 3 of the shake/salad diet, and I've noticed a lot of water weight lost, especially in my face, neck and collarbone area. Good so far! It's been pretty tough, but I think I'll manage to get used to it and stick out the next couple of weeks. I just really hope I start seeing myself shrinking from the waist downwards soon!

[Behemoth]

I don't own that particular book but I'm pretty sure lyle says no shakes on RFL.

[IronRanger]

the meal replacement protein shakes diet I'm doing is similar enough to Lyle McDonald's plan?

No. Aside from satiety, there are nutritional aspects you won't get from shakes. Plus, an extremely low fat diet isn't healthy. Advertising campaigns would have you believe otherwise.

Also, if your protein requirements aren't met, you can definitely count on losing muscle weight. People often confuse weight loss with fat loss. If your bodyfat percentage were higher I wouldn't worry as much, but you're not obese.

If shakes and chicken breast are all you have, I'd opt for chicken breast, especially once you have some cash. Get some fish oil and a multi-vitamin too.

The point is: we don't know if you have any present deficiencies which would be exacerbated by an extreme diet, regardless if it's only two weeks.

[bobbydeniro]

If your bodyfat percentage were higher I wouldn't worry as much, but you're not obese.

Although I'm not overweight, I recently measured my bodyfat % using an online calculator (which required measurements from my wrist, forearm, waist and hips) and it was 30%!! So, unless there is some shocking numerical trickery afoot, I'd say I have a pretty large amount of fat to lose. :P Does that change your opinion, out of interest?

[IronRanger]

Females normally have a higher bodyfat percentage than males. 30% isn't high for females. Multiply your lean body mass by 1.25, for now, to find your protein requirements. As you get leaner, your protein needs will go up.

132 lbs x 30% = 40

132-40=92

92x1.25=115

115 grams of protein would be a good starting place for you. Increase your protein intake incrementally to 2 grams/lb of lean body mass as you get leaner.

You could also go the generic route and use 1 gram per pound of bodyweight for your protein intake, but I've found this approach works better if you're including enough carbs to stave off catabolism. Yes, carbs fight catabolism too.

[bobbydeniro]

Females normally have a higher bodyfat percentage than males. 30% isn't high for females. Multiply your lean body mass by 1.25, for now, to find your protein requirements. As you get leaner, your protein needs will go up.

Fantastic, that's really good to know. I was alarmed to read that I was apparently teetering dangerously close to obesity according to my body weight, despite the fact that I'm the smallest I've been in a long while!! .. And as for that protein intake, I've been hitting about 120g per day for the past 3 days, and from tonight I'm adding in a couple of 1000mg fish EPA fish oil capsules too. I will update progress in here, should anybody wish to read it

[IronRanger]

I was apparently teetering dangerously close to obesity according to my body weight

Yea, that's the problem with scale weight and BMI: they don't account for muscle. Basically, by that standard, everyone's a shapeless blob composed of the same amount of muscle. I have a cousin who's 5'7", 240 pounds. He's "built like a brick shithouse"...he's a slab of muscle with a small gut, but obese by scale weight to height measurements.

If you can't afford veggies, buy some psyllium husk for fiber. Otherwise, unless you're lucky, you'll be passing kidney stones through your butt.

[bobbydeniro]

Couldn't hack it, guys! Yesterday I felt horrible and unfocused so I had a bowl of oatmeal with protein powder in it, instead of one of my shakes. Felt so much better, and so much fuller, that I was able to stay pretty carb-free for the rest of the day and had tuna mayo 'tacos' with romaine lettuce for dinner, etc. I think my net carbs were something like 55g for the whole day (including the oatmeal), and the calories were the same as if I'd just had shakes.

I blame my 'failure' on a number of factors - lack of appropriate and immediately available high protein foods in the house (thereby making it more difficult to stick to the plan), massive stress due to college finals in a couple of weeks, (the draw of carbs for comfort food is strong!) and the fact that prior to starting the diet I was VERY high carb, so it was a fairly sharp contrast and my body didn't like it.

However, as I understand it, around 50g carbs a day still counts as 'low carb', and I am still getting more than adequate amounts of protein, so I think this means I can stick to this new, adapted diet for a few more weeks than I'd planned. Essentially, I get one high-carb meal in the morning, and then 2 carb-free, protein-full meals later in the day. I'm pretty happy I figured this out, because I seem to have lost inches over the 5 days I did the stricter, carb-free diet and haven't suddenly swelled up after reintroducing carbs.

[IronRanger]

I think my net carbs were something like 55g for the whole day (including the oatmeal), and the calories were the same as if I'd just had shakes.

50 g is about what's needed for the brain. 50-100g also is in the anti-catabolic range. When calorie restricting, I stay in the 100-125g of carbs range. I feel better mentally and physically. The last time I restricted carbs severely, I felt like I had the flu for 3 weeks - that's the length of time most experts call the "adaptation" period. I felt like I had the flu for 3 weeks. I won't try a keto-style diet ever again.

There's a learning curve for which diet style will work for whom.

As for eating patterns, I love intermittent fasting: Eat, Stop, Eat (ESE), The Warrior Diet (TWD) and LeanGains (LG) are some of the well-known IF diets. I'm currently running LG, but I often combine LG and TWD: I'll fast for 16 hours, then break my fast with a small underfeed meal (usually 1/2 cup cottage cheese and berries) and a protein shake. Repeat and then have a big supper.

Essentially, I get one high-carb meal in the morning, and then 2 carb-free, protein-full meals later in the day.

Yea, this is often referred to as a carb cutoff diet. The biggest thing, with any diet, is a calorie deficit.

[bobbydeniro]

Yeah, I agree about calorie counting being the big thing overall - I lost all my initial weight eating as many carbs (crackers, sandwiches, cereals, sweets!) as I could fit into my restricted calorie goal, and it worked.

Good to know that eating at 50-ish grams of carbs is sustainable and generally OK. I was feeling like I was going a bit mad back there!

[Behemoth]

Couldn't hack it, guys! Yesterday I felt horrible and unfocused so I had a bowl of oatmeal with protein powder in it, instead of one of my shakes. Felt so much better, and so much fuller, that I was able to stay pretty carb-free for the rest of the day and had tuna mayo 'tacos' with romaine lettuce for dinner, etc. I think my net carbs were something like 55g for the whole day (including the oatmeal), and the calories were the same as if I'd just had shakes.

I blame my 'failure' on a number of factors - lack of appropriate and immediately available high protein foods in the house (thereby making it more difficult to stick to the plan), massive stress due to college finals in a couple of weeks, (the draw of carbs for comfort food is strong!) and the fact that prior to starting the diet I was VERY high carb, so it was a fairly sharp contrast and my body didn't like it.

However, as I understand it, around 50g carbs a day still counts as 'low carb', and I am still getting more than adequate amounts of protein, so I think this means I can stick to this new, adapted diet for a few more weeks than I'd planned. Essentially, I get one high-carb meal in the morning, and then 2 carb-free, protein-full meals later in the day. I'm pretty happy I figured this out, because I seem to have lost inches over the 5 days I did the stricter, carb-free diet and haven't suddenly swelled up after reintroducing carbs.

People often try to separate dietings psychological effects from it's physiological effects without realize how extremely closely they are tied. Thinking that it is simply about "toughing it out" could not be farther from the truth. You're altering your hormones as you diet and like it or not, just like your body operates different on a diet so does your mind.