Body Building Splits (Do they work?)

[NITF]

As the title indicates, I am growing extremely curious about typicall style BB splits. When I first began working out, I used one like I saw everyone and all my friends doing: Chest day, arms day, back day etc.. I never got anywhere with it but I also wasn't dedicated and didn't have a grasp of reasonable progression either. When I finally started up again I used a full body (5x5) routine and saw enormous progress. I also recall reading a few things about not training one body part for 7-8 days was sub-optimal at best and that made a lot of sense at the time.

Well, now I am at a strength level where I need a little less frequency and do things like only squat once a week or so and I am progressing using this. I also am ready to start re-orienting my goals towards more aesthetic ones (as opposed to strength), at least for awhile. So, this has me wondering about the BB splits I abandoned long ago and I have a lot of questions that I'd love to have good answers for.

Questions:
Are BB splits worthwhile?
What kind of advantages can they have over a more strength based routine?
What are the limitations of BB splits?
Who should do BB splits?
Why are they so popular with novices? or so popular period.

[Cards]

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Questions:
Are BB splits worthwhile?
We're pretty bias towards strength and power lifting here. There are a few pro bodybuilders, but most people on this site will guide you towards 5/3/1, westside, or HCT-12.

What kind of advantages can they have over a more strength based routine?
If done properly, the key word is properly, they will be better at building muscle.

What are the limitations of BB splits?
You don't get as strong on a BB split as you're not training with maximal weights. Also, I believe that many people over train on BB splits.

Who should do BB splits?
I think you should develop a strong foundation before jumping into a BB split, but any point in the game is OK as long as you're dedicated and have a well rounded routine. There was a thread recently about BB routines where ZARFIT and Tom posted two routines that I would recommend.

Why are they so popular with novices? or so popular period.
Most people start lifting for aesthetics and as a result drift towards a BB routine. Again, we're pretty bias here with the exception of a few. I wouldn't recommend a BB routine to a beginner, but to each their own

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[Tom Mutaffis]

My thoughts are below...

As the title indicates, I am growing extremely curious about typicall style BB splits. When I first began working out, I used one like I saw everyone and all my friends doing: Chest day, arms day, back day etc.. I never got anywhere with it but I also wasn't dedicated and didn't have a grasp of reasonable progression either. When I finally started up again I used a full body (5x5) routine and saw enormous progress. I also recall reading a few things about not training one body part for 7-8 days was sub-optimal at best and that made a lot of sense at the time.

Well, now I am at a strength level where I need a little less frequency and do things like only squat once a week or so and I am progressing using this. I also am ready to start re-orienting my goals towards more aesthetic ones (as opposed to strength), at least for awhile. So, this has me wondering about the BB splits I abandoned long ago and I have a lot of questions that I'd love to have good answers for.

Questions:
Are BB splits worthwhile?
What kind of advantages can they have over a more strength based routine?
What are the limitations of BB splits?
Who should do BB splits?
Why are they so popular with novices? or so popular period.

Are BB splits worthwhile?

Any well-programmed split can be worthwhile, training muscle groups as opposed to movements can be effective for both size and strength.

What kind of advantages can they have over a more strength based routine?

Your level of intensity, exercise selection, volume, rest periods, and rep ranges would be deciding factors between a 'strength' routine and a 'bodybuilding' routine - so there is more to it than simply how you break down your training with regard to what you perform in each session (body part versus movements).

One advantage of a 'bodybuilding' routine would be increased recovery ability, since in many cases you are isolating muscle groups and training each group only 1-2X week rather than performing a lot of total body workouts. Another advantage would be that you are able to include additional volume and variation since you will be dedicating more time to each specific muscle group.

What are the limitations of BB splits?

One limitation would be that if you choose a 4-5 day split you may have to scale back some of your intensity or volume on heavy compound movements since you will be training more frequently.

Who should do BB splits?

Anyone who wants to improve overall fitness, gain muscle, increase strength, burn fat, etc. (anyone who is interested in the benefits of lifting weights).

If you are looking for a more specific answer, you can still increase sports performance and strength with body-part splits ('bodybuilding' routines), although they may be most effective for someone who is looking for a combination of aesthetics and performance or simply aesthetics.

Why are they so popular with novices? or so popular period

A 'bodybuilding' or body-part split is simple, if you know what muscle groups are trained by a given exercise it is easy to put together a training program. An effective program involving multiple muscle groups each day and full-body workouts can be more challenging to put together.

[RichMcGuire]

I think the biggest problem I have with most BB splits is you're not isolating any muscle groups at all. None. Period. Its not a big surprise they became more popular when steroid usage / dosages sky rocketed. I think youd have to be pretty strong to convince me less frequency is actually better when developing any musculature. There is also overwhelming evidence that shows 1x a week is not optimal.

Will they work? Yea. Any program will. But I think they are better for people on anabolics. I think the ones I like best are a 3 on, 1 off, push/pull.

[ZAR-FIT]

To be honest, I wish I was never told and instructed to do the 5 bodypart split. I feel like i could have grown so much faster and bigger, and bigger still, if i just did a 3 day split of Push, Pull, Legs.
I still want to give it a shot with this but old habits die really hard for me. I guess i'll really just have to try it for a week and stretch it week by week if i mentally can.

[chevelle2291]

I think the biggest problem I have with most BB splits is you're not isolating any muscle groups at all. None. Period.

What do you mean by this?

[RichMcGuire]

What do you mean by this?

I mean, every single movement has significant overlap with other muscles not intended to be worked. You'd have to be really 'choosy' with which sort of split you used.

[Off Road]

In the old days, everybody started off with a full-body power based routine. As they progressed, their intensity increased and they were forced to add more volume and exercises to keep that progression going. This forced them to have to split up their training schedules. Eventually they had things split in such a way as to resemble today's typical "bodybuilding split."

Well, they didn't become household names while they were using the full-body routines. No, this didn't happen until they were much further along in their training and started winning shows and contests. When they became famous, people would ask them how they trained and of course they would talk about their current routines and splits. Newbies and magazines ran with it thinking that this was the correct way to start their own journeys. They didn't want to hear about or be bothered with the humble beginner routines, they wanted to get right to it.

I know a lot of guys here would have you believe that if you want to look like a bodybuilder that you need to train like a bodybuilder, and there is a lot of truth in that. However, we cannot forget how these successful bodybuilders layed the groundwork prior to traing in such a fashion. Even Arnold started with a full-body power based routine...Change things when you HAVE to and not just because you WANT to.

[chevelle2291]

I mean, every single movement has significant overlap with other muscles not intended to be worked. You'd have to be really 'choosy' with which sort of split you used.

It's really not that difficult.

[RichMcGuire]

It's really not that difficult.

Well, even typing this reply I'm using several muscles besides just my fingers. How would I isolate them? Theres always overlap with most bodypart splits. Thats probably why they seem to work better for someone on steroids. You'll see people do romanian deadlifts for their hamstrings and then the next day do a back workout as if they didnt work their back the day before. I always laugh when people have a "chest" day with all sorts of pressing..when in reality, they are working their shoulders and triceps just as hard..if not harder. Body part splits just dont make physiological sense to me.

If you get besides this basic problem, I still think frequency is a pretty big issue for most people so youd have to at least find a split outside of a muscle magazine for the most part.

[chevelle2291]

Well, even typing this reply I'm using several muscles besides just my fingers. How would I isolate them? Theres always overlap with most bodypart splits. Thats probably why they seem to work better for someone on steroids. You'll see people do romanian deadlifts for their hamstrings and then the next day do a back workout as if they didnt work their back the day before. I always laugh when people have a "chest" day with all sorts of pressing..when in reality, they are working their shoulders and triceps just as hard..if not harder. Body part splits just dont make physiological sense to me.

If you get besides this basic problem, I still think frequency is a pretty big issue for most people so youd have to at least find a split outside of a muscle magazine for the most part.

Yes, there is going to be overlap. So what? It's not that hard to choose proper exercise selection to make a 4 or 5-way split work with no issues. This overlap could even be of benefit, as, like you said, the 1x a week frequency is supposedly not optimal.

I remember reading an excerpt from NROL where the author was laughing at his friend who had a dedicated "shoulder day." The author said that a day given over to just shoulders was ridiculous, because shoulders are, anatomically, such a small muscle. Well, the dumbass author didn't take into account that shoulders can make or break a bodybuilding physique, as shoulders feature prominently in just about every mandatory. That's one of the reasons why SEO-enhanced delts are so common in the geared feds.

Bodybuilding splits aren't meant to be functionally or anatomically logical. They are meant to create a stage-worthy physique by "splitting up" the body and dedicating entire days to the body parts that matter most, or that the bodybuilder feels need more attention because they are lagging, etc.

[RichMcGuire]

Yes, there is going to be overlap. So what? It's not that hard to choose proper exercise selection to make a 4 or 5-way split work with no issues. This overlap could even be of benefit, as, like you said, the 1x a week frequency is supposedly not optimal.

I remember reading an excerpt from NROL where the author was laughing at his friend who had a dedicated "shoulder day." The author said that a day given over to just shoulders was ridiculous, because shoulders are, anatomically, such a small muscle. Well, the dumbass author didn't take into account that shoulders can make or break a bodybuilding physique, as shoulders feature prominently in just about every mandatory. That's one of the reasons why SEO-enhanced delts are so common in the geared feds.

Bodybuilding splits aren't meant to be functionally or anatomically logical. They are meant to create a stage-worthy physique by "splitting up" the body and dedicating entire days to the body parts that matter most, or that the bodybuilder feels need more attention because they are lagging, etc.

I've read the book. He laughed about it because the shoulder complex is a small muscle that most natural people over work simply from....overlap. Almost everything you do involves it. Beating it into the ground wont make it grow.

The splits arent logical because you can never physically isolate any one muscle.. so its retarded to say "chest day" and things like that. Almost no one uses body part splits except for a few minority of people who abuse drugs...

oh wait.. I forgot about all the people in every gym you go to who make zero progress also.

I have other scientific reasoning behind not being too fond of them if youre interested..but its 5:48 am and my beds coming first, lol.

[chevelle2291]

I've read the book. He laughed about it because the shoulder complex is a small muscle that most natural people over work simply from....overlap. Almost everything you do involves it. Beating it into the ground wont make it grow.

And yet all that "shoulder work" from pressing/rowing results in pretty small shoulders in a lot of trainees.

The splits arent logical because you can never physically isolate any one muscle.. so its retarded to say "chest day" and things like that.

You can't "isolate" a muscle completely, but you can definitely pick exercises that emphasis one muscle over another. Sure, you aren't "isolating," but you ARE focusing on that muscle group to a higher degree with that movement than you would with others. Emphasis, isolation, etc. It's just an argument of semantics.

Almost no one uses body part splits except for a few minority of people who abuse drugs...

You are so blatantly wrong here that it's hilarious. Venture outside of WBB for once and you'll see plenty of natural bodybuilders doing bodypart splits who are making fantastic progress. In fact, the vast majority of pro competitors in tested feds are using bodypart splits.

Just because no one at WBB uses them outside of a handful of people doesn't mean that they are worthless.

Oh, and look: http://www.wannabebig.com/training/b...-and-behemoth/

2/3 of the people featured in this article do bodypart splits. Tim went on to a four-way split after his bout with 5x5.

oh wait.. I forgot about all the people in every gym you go to who make zero progress also.

I have other scientific reasoning behind not being too fond of them if youre interested..but its 5:48 am and my beds coming first, lol.

I've seen plenty of guys do SS, 5/3/1, Westside, etc. who make shit progress also (in terms of size gains and strength gains). A program is just a progam, nothing more.

I've read much of the "science" behind why an UL or PPL is better than a split (mainly due to frequency concerns, greater instances of increased protein synthesis, yadda yadda yadda), and that's all fine and great and I agree with them for the most part, but to say that they flat out don't work except for geared individuals is flat-out wrong.

[thecityalive]

Isolation is just a game of ratios. Fucking ratios.

[chris mason]

If your goal is size then your training should reflect it. That means you should focus on hypertrophy. Bodybuilders seem to be pretty successful at that methinks (especially aesthetically pleasing size). So, when in Rome...

Yes, bodybuilding splits work well. Training each major body part twice per week seems to be ideal for hypertrophy purposes.

Starting Strength, 5-3-1, and the rest will not optimize hypertrophy. Period. HCT-12 is different than those FYI for the person that lumped it in with them. It was designed for bodybuilding.

[chris mason]

And yet all that "shoulder work" from pressing/rowing results in pretty small shoulders in a lot of trainees.



You can't "isolate" a muscle completely, but you can definitely pick exercises that emphasis one muscle over another. Sure, you aren't "isolating," but you ARE focusing on that muscle group to a higher degree with that movement than you would with others. Emphasis, isolation, etc. It's just an argument of semantics.



You are so blatantly wrong here that it's hilarious. Venture outside of WBB for once and you'll see plenty of natural bodybuilders doing bodypart splits who are making fantastic progress. In fact, the vast majority of pro competitors in tested feds are using bodypart splits.

Just because no one at WBB uses them outside of a handful of people doesn't mean that they are worthless.

Oh, and look: http://www.wannabebig.com/training/b...-and-behemoth/

2/3 of the people featured in this article do bodypart splits. Tim went on to a four-way split after his bout with 5x5.



I've seen plenty of guys do SS, 5/3/1, Westside, etc. who make shit progress also (in terms of size gains and strength gains). A program is just a progam, nothing more.

I've read much of the "science" behind why an UL or PPL is better than a split (mainly due to frequency concerns, greater instances of increased protein synthesis, yadda yadda yadda), and that's all fine and great and I agree with them for the most part, but to say that they flat out don't work except for geared individuals is flat-out wrong.

One correction here, anyone who has made shit progress with Westside didn't do it right. Trust me on that.

[RichMcGuire]

I thought this was pretty funny.

but to say that they flat out don't work except for geared individuals is flat-out wrong.

Will they work? Yea. Any program will. But I think they are better for people on anabolics

[RichMcGuire]

Just because no one at WBB uses them outside of a handful of people doesn't mean that they are worthless.

Oh, and look: http://www.wannabebig.com/training/b...-and-behemoth/

2/3 of the people featured in this article do bodypart splits. Tim went on to a four-way split after his bout with 5x5.

likewise, just because a handful of people made good results (after 5x5) doesnt mean they are optimal either. For every person you show me that had good results, I can pick hundreds of other people at any gym who get terrible results.

Edit: Can we look at the biceps? It has two functions.. elbow flexing and pronation (which most bodybuilders dont use). Its obvious rows, pullups etc, involve elbow flexing, hence the biceps. Why in the world would a natural trainee need an entire day then to biceps where you try to "shape" it and give it "peaks"? It works for people on steroids..which as I said, makes it better for them. As I corrected your above reading, I never said they cant work. I simply said they are more optimal for someone on anabolics than they are for most of the worlds training population inhabiting the gyms today.

For someone natural, I still think it would be better to do some type of push/pull set up which is based more on physiology than "body parts". That doesnt mean you cant still "train like a bodybuilder" with more sets/reps/ fatigue etc. I think a great example is the results built got at age 42.

[chris mason]

Rich, that's supination, not pronation.

[RichMcGuire]

Rich, that's supination, not pronation.

If I'm not mistaken, supination and pronation are the position of the forearm.

[chevelle2291]

I thought this was pretty funny.

My apologies. I misread your post.

likewise, just because a handful of people made good results (after 5x5) doesnt mean they are optimal either. For every person you show me that had good results, I can pick hundreds of other people at any gym who get terrible results.

Edit: Can we look at the biceps? It has two functions.. elbow flexing and pronation (which most bodybuilders dont use). Its obvious rows, pullups etc, involve elbow flexing, hence the biceps. Why in the world would a natural trainee need an entire day then to biceps where you try to "shape" it and give it "peaks"? It works for people on steroids..which as I said, makes it better for them.

For someone natural, I still think it would be better to do some type of push/pull set up which is based more on physiology than "body parts". That doesnt mean you cant still "train like a bodybuilder" with more sets/reps/ fatigue etc. I think a great example is the results built got at age 42.

The only person who did 5x5 was Tim. Both Nick and Rory have never done 5x5, to my knowledge.

There's a difference between an intelligently designed split, and a hodor split. One day just for biceps is probably overkill for most people. But an arm day? For some individuals, absolutely necessary.

My one, and seriously only one, point here is that there are legitimate reasons to train using a split. Guys who disagree tend to be armchair experts who weight train very little, if at all, and get so bogged down in the "science" of training that they forget to train themselves. Much like Lyle McDonald, actually.

[chevelle2291]

One correction here, anyone who has made shit progress with Westside didn't do it right. Trust me on that.

I don't doubt that.

[RichMcGuire]

Eh, agree to disagree. I guess as long as the principles are there.

[thecityalive]

Supination and pronation is only relative to the direction of which it faces. Your entire body can be supinated when you lie face up...as opposed to pronated when you are facedown (thus, prone). Your forearms are not the only thing that can be supine or prone.

[RichMcGuire]

Supination and pronation is only relative to the direction of which it faces. Your entire body can be supinated when you lie face up...as opposed to pronated when you are facedown (thus, prone). Your forearms are not the only thing that can be supine or prone.

Yep, this is true. I only mentioned forearms since it related to what I was talking about with the biceps.