Anthos/CrossFit Debacle

[chris mason]

I can only speak for myself, so take this as MY opinion. Do not lump your feelings for what others have said influence your response to me.

I never stated I wanted CrossFit to be perfect. We all got sidetracked with that argument, but my original post was this. I like CrossFit the exercise program, I really like that they are making this training available to all kinds of people. Any criticism I may have is independent of anything else, any other industry, because I think that CrossFit has so much potential reach a lot of people. Unlike bodybuilding and powerlifting that tends to attract a certain mentality and personality, CrossFit is now reaching the average Joe. It is unfair to the average Joe to walk in to a CrossFit facility with the assumption that they are going to get world class coaching/training. After all they expect to be exposed to "Elite Fitness." We as a community should strive to make it better.

I know you are not telling me that a weekend certification alone will provide this, and I do not expect it to, but that is all some facilities will have. A person with a weekend cert that has been crossfitting for a while (the original post by Paul that I was responding to when you responded to my post).

I want someone like you or Alex that used the cert as a continuing education, that knows his or her stuff. That is what we should shoot for. It will never be perfect, but I think CrossFit should aim to be better than the rest of the industry. JMHO.

When was the last time you went to a CrossFit box and did a workout?

[chris mason]

Who say's they aren't already trying to do that? They just recently received ANSI accreditation for the Level 1 Trainer course. The same ANSI accreditation held by the NSCA/CSCS. The Level 2 is currently unavailable as it's being restructured for accreditation, and includes both a written exam and practical evaluation. Multiple specialty courses are offered and coached by individuals with excellent credentials in their respective fields (Louie Simmons, Burgener, Rob Orlando who holds multiple North American records, Jeff Martone, Kelly Starrett etc). They offer a CrossFit journal which publishes new videos and articles every day. They have branch off sites such as mobilitywod with people like Kelly Starrett preaching proper movement patterns to prevent injury and dysfunction. More importantly, they are making the information easily available to anyone and everyone. In todays fitness world, who can say the same?

It's a growing entity, which was only started in what, 1995? Refining things takes time, but it would be difficult to argue that they aren't constantly striving to improve the product.

You are correct, they are. People just have opinions based on what they have read from others in many cases. The very fact CrossFit is so incredibly popular just bothers some people.

[Sensei]

Again, what business is perfect and has no sub-par trainers etc.??? NONE. So what is your point? The truth is that CrossFit has better quality control than most fitness related businesses. You, and others, are pointing out imperfection as though it only exists with CrossFit. Ok, CrossFit is not perfect. Gee, can you imagine?

Other businesses aren't the topic of conversation here... I think you know the point - we just disagree whether it's a problem or not. Nowhere to go from there, I guess.

[Sensei]

They aren't?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMBw3o768s WFS
That video is at DeFranco training. A pretty well known name in the strength and conditioning industry and a person who continuously provides clients with results. Just a basic fat bar complex which is including hang power cleans. Would you say that is a similar metabolic conditioning type complex you might see in CrossFit? I think we could agree his technique and range of motion leaves a lot to be desired as well but I'm not ready to start screaming quality control.

I think we can both agree that the weight is probably somewhere around 30% of this guy's max power clean... The fat bar really makes the entire complex very grip-intensive and that changes things a lot. Beyond that, I don't know enough about his training to comment on Joe DeFranco's programming as a whole - looking at a single minute complex doesn't tell me anything about the big picture.

[DoUgL@S]

When was the last time you went to a CrossFit box and did a workout?

I was a regular member up until early this year. My box followed main site programming. I went for about 6 months 2-4 times a week before I decided to build a garage gym to complement my 24 hour membership.

[Rory Senseman]

I think we can both agree that the weight is probably somewhere around 30% of this guy's max power clean... The fat bar really makes the entire complex very grip-intensive and that changes things a lot. Beyond that, I don't know enough about his training to comment on Joe DeFranco's programming as a whole - looking at a single minute complex doesn't tell me anything about the big picture.

I agree 100%. But that in fact is my point.

[Sensei]

I agree 100%. But that in fact is my point.

So, I can't comment on a box's programming when the post the WoD everyday and post videos frequently? I can't comment on a box's programming when I see first-hand injuries as a result of them?

I guess I'm not seeing what your point is.

[Rory Senseman]

So, I can't comment on a box's programming when the post the WoD everyday and post videos frequently? I can't comment on a box's programming when I see first-hand injuries as a result of them?

I guess I'm not seeing what your point is.

My point is, you aren't commenting on "a box". I have yet to see a specific location mentioned, not implying that you would publicly throw someone under the bus like that. Though you have in fact, been grouping them together with all the other 4000 affiliates, and that I believe is what Mr. Mason and I are getting at. I personally know some CrossFit locations who have some terribly bad programming, but I also know some who have excellent programming and employ former National Champion weightlifters etc. Quality control can be a self imposed thing. People will gravitate towards the superior locations over time.

[chris mason]

Other businesses aren't the topic of conversation here... I think you know the point - we just disagree whether it's a problem or not. Nowhere to go from there, I guess.

No business is perfect. Your "concern" about CrossFit is ridiculous because the exact same concern could be voiced about any similar business yet you seem to want to use it to attack CrossFit and its credibility. You have a reason you feel compelled to express your opinion and it is NOT some objective assessment as you wish people here to think. What is that reason? What is it really?

[chris mason]

I was a regular member up until early this year. My box followed main site programming. I went for about 6 months 2-4 times a week before I decided to build a garage gym to complement my 24 hour membership.

Ok, so your experience at one box dictates what CrossFit as a 4,500 box entity is?

I'm curious, how many times have you been injured training? Please don't say never or I will say you obviously don't train, or train like an absolute pussy. So, when you were injured from your own programming, does that make you bad or incompetent? How many professional athletes do you know who have been injured? Are they all getting shit training?

[r2473]

Ok, so your experience at one box dictates what CrossFit as a 4,500 box entity is?

How many of the 4,500 boxes have you been to?

[DoUgL@S]

Ok, so your experience at one box dictates what CrossFit as a 4,500 box entity is?

I'm curious, how many times have you been injured training? Please don't say never or I will say you obviously don't train, or train like an absolute pussy. So, when you were injured from your own programming, does that make you bad or incompetent? How many professional athletes do you know who have been injured? Are they all getting shit training?

There we go. I trained at one box. I have looked at the programming at others. TRUE. I NEVER EVER said that all the boxes have terrible programming or terrible coaches, I never even said the box I went to had bad programming. I said they followed main site programming. You are putting words in my mouth. Please, lets not resort to that. Getting past your emotional response. What I said, more than once, is that I believe that CrossFit the movement should minimize the affiliation of "people who have been crossfitting for a while" and were able to get a weekend cert. Even you can agree that is a good thing. If you don't there is nothing more to say.

I don't deadlift 600 lbs, squat 500 or bench 400. I must not be lifting enough weight yet to get hurt while training. I am very conservative. I did tear a hammy a few years back sprinting. I have sprained ankles and broken wrists playing basketball and football. That probably does not qualify me then. If getting hurt training equates not training like a pussy, then I guess I'm shit out of luck. If I was injured from my own programming because of lack of proper form or from pushing more weight than I should, then yes it is bad programming/coaching.

What do professional athletes have to do with anything. Most of them get hurt playing their sport, not in the weight room. So what's your point. I hardly ever hear Ray Lewis got hurt doing power cleans or benching before the game, news at 11. I have heard of him getting hurt playing football though.

So let me get this straight. To really train, I must get injured in the weight room. Then I'm lifting like a man. Are you hearing yourself? That can be a topic for a different thread.

I am actually curious to hear what not training like a pussy entails. Please elucidate me.

[Rory Senseman]

I believe that CrossFit the movement should minimize the affiliation of "people who have been crossfitting for a while" and were able to get a weekend cert. Even you can agree that is a good thing. If you don't there is nothing more to say.

I actually understand where you are coming from here. But no amount of training/certs will make up for the actual experience of training people. Only one way to get that experience...train people. What further would you suggest? A degree possibly or apprenticeship? Either way, is CrossFit the only mainstream fitness company that has a quick certification process?

Anytime Fitness - "1715 clubs in north america, 239 across the globe":
"During your initial training, you will learn about operational issues, sales techniques, and marketing strategies. Also during training, you will meet the Anytime Fitness preferred vendors. These vendors will discuss the many products available for outfitting your club and enhancing the member experience.
Our mandatory, one-week training course is required for the principal owner and/or operator of a new franchise. It can also be beneficial to invite key staff members to share in the knowledge!"

That one whole week prepares people. Of which I'm sure plenty of it is focused on those marketing and sales portions. Also I'm sure it is not an accredited program. Don't pretend quality control and assurance is a problem exclusive to CrossFit.

What do professional athletes have to do with anything. Most of them get hurt playing their sport, not in the weight room. So what's your point. I hardly ever hear Ray Lewis got hurt doing power cleans or benching before the game, news at 11. I have heard of him getting hurt playing football though.

Now that's a great point. While people are busy jumping on the bash CrossFit bandwagon, they mention nothing of kids being sent onto football fields. Muscles and joints can be repaired. The brain? Eh not so easy to fix. Also, what about the kid from USC who dropped the bar on his neck while bench pressing? Kid almost died, and probably didn't have his thumb wrapped around the bar. Down with USC!!??

I don't deadlift 600 lbs, squat 500 or bench 400. I must not be lifting enough weight yet to get hurt while training. I am very conservative. I did tear a hammy a few years back sprinting. I have sprained ankles and broken wrists playing basketball and football. That probably does not qualify me then. If getting hurt training equates not training like a pussy, then I guess I'm shit out of luck. If I was injured from my own programming because of lack of proper form or from pushing more weight than I should, then yes it is bad programming/coaching...I am actually curious to hear what not training like a pussy entails. Please elucidate me.

The point he's trying to make is that for exceptional results, intensity is important. Coaches such as Glenn Pendlay will repeatedly tell you, to be competent at cleaning or snatching max weights, you have to attempt max weights somewhat regularly. If you aren't pushing the intensity you are stunting progress. Is that what a client should be paying for? How many mma fighters get injured in training prior to the fights? It happens, they have to train with intensity to be prepared. That doesn't mean you should go do 1000 box jumps for time, but nonetheless, show me a program without intensity and I'll show you marginal results.

[DoUgL@S]

I see your point Rory. Again I was referencing the idea that it appeared to me that Paul was advocating that it is perfectly fine for someone with minimal experience to open an affiliate and train people. I agree that people need to get experience, and from what I have seen, usually people will apprentice in an established box before going out and opening their own. I like the fact that there are lots of boxes with people who have not only a Level I Cert but a Level II Cert, Olympic Lifting Cert, Power Lifting Cert, etc. So people who apprentice in such boxes are more in line with what I thought CrossFit as a whole advocated.

Intensity is one of the reasons CrossFit is so different and effective. I appreciate that. I have no argument there.

MMA is a different animal. Their workouts are intense, no doubt. There is also full contact sparring involved. It's like the football analogy again. If a receiver gets hurt getting cracked by a safety, no one is going to say that his trainer must not program or coach well. I do not have statistics, but I would venture to say that the injuries are not due to not exercising correctly, but most likely the result of the sparring.

I am sure that Chris will chime in soon, but in my opinion Intensity =! Injury. Do injuries happen, yes undoubtedly. No getting around that. But to say that if you have never been injured than you are not training right is ludicrous. Chris is a smart guy, I know he did not mean that as I spelled it out, but that is what it read like.

[Paulo_Santos]

I see your point Rory. Again I was referencing the idea that it appeared to me that Paul was advocating that it is perfectly fine for someone with minimal experience to open an affiliate and train people. I agree that people need to get experience, and from what I have seen, usually people will apprentice in an established box before going out and opening their own. I like the fact that there are lots of boxes with people who have not only a Level I Cert but a Level II Cert, Olympic Lifting Cert, Power Lifting Cert, etc. So people who apprentice in such boxes are more in line with what I thought CrossFit as a whole advocated.

I never said that it was a good idea that someone open up an affiliate with just a Level 1 Cert. I just said that is exactly what happened early on, which is a fact. Right now, if someone were to open up an affiliate without having several certs and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, I'd say that would be dumb.

[chris mason]

How many of the 4,500 boxes have you been to?

Dozens. In addition, I have met over 200+ affiliate owners and trainers. Next question...

[chris mason]

There we go. I trained at one box. I have looked at the programming at others. TRUE. I NEVER EVER said that all the boxes have terrible programming or terrible coaches, I never even said the box I went to had bad programming. I said they followed main site programming. You are putting words in my mouth. Please, lets not resort to that. Getting past your emotional response. What I said, more than once, is that I believe that CrossFit the movement should minimize the affiliation of "people who have been crossfitting for a while" and were able to get a weekend cert. Even you can agree that is a good thing. If you don't there is nothing more to say.

I don't deadlift 600 lbs, squat 500 or bench 400. I must not be lifting enough weight yet to get hurt while training. I am very conservative. I did tear a hammy a few years back sprinting. I have sprained ankles and broken wrists playing basketball and football. That probably does not qualify me then. If getting hurt training equates not training like a pussy, then I guess I'm shit out of luck. If I was injured from my own programming because of lack of proper form or from pushing more weight than I should, then yes it is bad programming/coaching.

What do professional athletes have to do with anything. Most of them get hurt playing their sport, not in the weight room. So what's your point. I hardly ever hear Ray Lewis got hurt doing power cleans or benching before the game, news at 11. I have heard of him getting hurt playing football though.

So let me get this straight. To really train, I must get injured in the weight room. Then I'm lifting like a man. Are you hearing yourself? That can be a topic for a different thread.

I am actually curious to hear what not training like a pussy entails. Please elucidate me.

Yes, if you have trained for any length of time and with any reasonable level of intensity some form of injury is very, very, likely (it need not be a catastrophic injury). If not, you are simply not training yourself hard and THAT is probably why at 235 lbs your lifts suck and you are a self professed "fatty".

That is not an emotional response, it is the hard truth.

And yet through all of that you feel comfortable enough to critique a fitness movement that has gotten hundreds of thousands of people (probably more than that) into the best shape of their lives.

Interesting.

[Sensei]

No business is perfect. Your "concern" about CrossFit is ridiculous because the exact same concern could be voiced about any similar business yet you seem to want to use it to attack CrossFit and its credibility. You have a reason you feel compelled to express your opinion and it is NOT some objective assessment as you wish people here to think. What is that reason? What is it really?

Wow, you're defensive. Look, whoever the current Kool-Aid dealer is is bound to get an inordinate share of crap whether that's Westside, kettle bells, CF, 5x5, FMS, or Starting Strength. They are all fine, but when they become THE answer to all training questions, the limitations start to show themselves.

I never said I was concerned about CF. Fwiw, outside of the people I know in CF, I'm not.

I think if you (and Rory) re-read all of my posts in this thread with a clear head, you might find I don't have a beef w. CF. I did suggest that it could be A LOT better - nothing more, nothing less. Whether those "issues" (that apparently aren't issues at all to you) would get better w. a merger with this company (which I know zero about) or not, I don't know but that's how the topic of potential improvement came up.

Whatever. I've spent too much time in this already. Read it however you want.

edit - last thing, I swear - Rory, I am NOT lumping all CF boxes into one category. Not at all. Thought I made that abundantly clear when I said that I had worked with CF boxes and trainers.

[chris mason]

Douglas, I just reread your initial post in this thread and I will say I overreacted. I misread a bit of what you were saying based on what others were saying. I have thus been overly harsh on you and for that I apologize.

[chris mason]

"The biggest thing that pisses me off about HQ is that they constantly bitch and moan about quality and quality control, but then continue to churn out Level 1 Certifications to any dumbass with the money."

Agreed.

Chris,
No offense, but you aren't exactly impartial on any of this.

This was your first statement.

Exactly how that is not a concern or criticism escapes me. You AGREED with some pretty harsh language about CF.

The bottom line to me on your opinion of CF is that it (your opinion) seems trite. It could be stated about ANY entity no matter how perfect as all business are imperfect by nature just as are the humans that run them.

Now, as with Douglas, if I have been overly harsh with you I apologize. What I consider ridiculous bandwagon criticisms of CrossFit just irk me and get my ire up.

[DoUgL@S]

I never said that it was a good idea that someone open up an affiliate with just a Level 1 Cert. I just said that is exactly what happened early on, which is a fact. Right now, if someone were to open up an affiliate without having several certs and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, I'd say that would be dumb.

Ok that I understand, but this is what you said earlier.

If someone goes to a certification class and passes the written test, how are they a dumbass? [B[Most people that open up a CrossFit box already have been doing CrossFit for a while before they get their certs and open up a box[/B], so I don't understand what you are talking about. I think you are just regurgitating crap you read on the internut.

This implied, at least to me, that passing the test and doing CrossFit for a while was your criteria for someone to be able to open a box. I have seen people doing Crossfit for a while, and that does not necessarily mean the are competent. If I read this out of context, then that is my mistake.

[DoUgL@S]

Yes, if you have trained for any length of time and with any reasonable level of intensity some form of injury is very, very, likely (it need not be a catastrophic injury). If not, you are simply not training yourself hard and THAT is probably why at 235 lbs your lifts suck and you are a self professed "fatty".

That is not an emotional response, it is the hard truth.

And yet through all of that you feel comfortable enough to critique a fitness movement that has gotten hundreds of thousands of people (probably more than that) into the best shape of their lives.

Interesting.

Interesting point of view.

Yes I am more than comfortable critiquing anything. My current level of conditioning has not hing to do with common sense.

Douglas, I just reread your initial post in this thread and I will say I overreacted. I misread a bit of what you were saying based on what others were saying. I have thus been overly harsh on you and for that I apologize.

Like you said it was not an emotional response to passive aggressively say that my lifts suck because they are not as big as yours. It's ok. While the gesture is nice, don't apologize for what you believe is the truth. Again, not everyone is trying to be a powerlifter. I wont go to bed crying. I am a big boy and I think I handled myself as an adult, and that is all I can control.

If you are sincere then apology accepted and lets move on. I am done with this thread.

[JustinM]

Before I get the "you're ignorant" comment -- I think that I have been doing CF for longer than anyone here besides Anthony, and that I am the only person here to go to Regionals as an individual (BTW, Chubrock and I joined CrossFit Wilmington around 2007 and were doing CF workouts before that -- so he's not completely ignorant).


I think CrossFit is a community with good aspects and bad aspects. The idea of competing at fitness is awesome. The events are getting better each year, but they could still improve a bit. The biggest thing for me is the programming -- I think that goal of maximizing fitness could be achieved much more efficiently by applying long (or short) conjugate sequencing with a bigger focus on injury prevention and wayyy more aerobic conditioning (in place of metcons -- I'm not advocating for less strength work). I don't think that really anyone in the community has really tried intelligently implementing this approach.

Aside from that, most of the folks I've met through CrossFit are 10 steps ahead of the top 20% of folks in the globo gyms...but, I think it is lame that almost every box is $150+/m when they have relatively cheap equipment. I do not need anything but a workout partner, and I dislike paying extra for places without an open gym policy. I also dislike how mainstream it has gotten. When I first started, the people that did CF had a very different mentality than the people I see now who heard they can lose ten pounds by doing high intensity workouts (but give low intensity and leave thinking how much they accomplished). CFHQ has also made some stupid claims like saying CF is ideal for bodybuilding and can give you a 700lb deadlift following mainsite WODs. They also have opinions on SST that I disagree with (and which are internally inconsistent). I have also noticed thst most of the educated folks in the CF community frame their fitness mindset and hnderstanding in terms of CF. This is not terrible, because it is a good system, but they usually do not understand other perspectives very well.

So, yeah, lots of random opinions about CF. Back to the underlying issue: I still don't see how Anthos purchasing 50% of CF is going to change ANYTHING. Lauren has a right to sell, and there aren't a ton of groups that have enough money to purchase from her. Whether Anthos wants a big return on its investment is immaterial. They cannot control the business. If they try, it results in gridlock. Gridlock results in them losing a ton of money.

My take on the deal is that Anthos thinks CF is highly undervalued, not so much that they plan to change the model to make it grow more. Lauren probably just has a limited number of offers...

[chris mason]

Before I get the "you're ignorant" comment -- I think that I have been doing CF for longer than anyone here besides Anthony, and that I am the only person here to go to Regionals as an individual (BTW, Chubrock and I joined CrossFit Wilmington around 2007 and were doing CF workouts before that -- so he's not completely ignorant).

I think CrossFit is a community with good aspects and bad aspects. The idea of competing at fitness is awesome. The events are getting better each year, but they could still improve a bit. The biggest thing for me is the programming -- I think that goal of maximizing fitness could be achieved much more efficiently by applying long (or short) conjugate sequencing with a bigger focus on injury prevention and wayyy more aerobic conditioning (in place of metcons -- I'm not advocating for less strength work). I don't think that really anyone in the community has really tried intelligently implementing this approach.

Aside from that, most of the folks I've met through CrossFit are 10 steps ahead of the folks in the globo gyms...but, I think it is lame that almost every box is $150+/m when they have relatively cheap equipment. I do not need anything but a workout partner, and I dislike paying extra for places without an open gym policy.

So, yeah, lots of random opinions about CF. Back to the underlying issue: I still don't see how Anthos purchasing 50% of CF is going to change ANYTHING. Lauren has a right to sell, and there aren't a ton of groups that have enough money to purchase from her. Whether Anthos wants a big return on its investment is immaterial. They cannot control the business. If they try, it results in gridlock. Gridlock results in them losing a ton of money.

My take on the deal is that Anthos thinks CF is highly undervalued, not so much that they plan to change the model to make it grow more. Lauren probably just has a limited number of offers...

Actually, Lauren has the right to do nothing until the divorce court approves it.

As for Anthos not changing anything, you are truly ignorant on the matter. You might know something about CF training, but you obviously don't know much about private equity investing...

If Anthos is allowed to buy-in there will 100% be significant changes to the CrossFit model.

As for your argument there are better training methods for fitness, I am totally cool with that. You are definitely entitled to your opinion on that subject as you seem to know something about it.

[mrelwooddowd]

I love Crossfit and have done it religiously for over 2 years, but i know very little about the business side or internal workings so I'll happily stay out of that discussion, but...

Is there something I'm missing?

The way I see it, if Anthos changes things too much, what's to stop gym owners from just dropping affiliation, changing the gym name (if it says Crossfit in it), and continuing on with the same philosophy? As it stands, even the "Crossfit Games" competition is open to anyone, regardless of affiliation. And from what I recall you don't even have to have full affiliation to lead Crossfit workouts at your gym as long as a Level 1 is running the sessions.

It's not like McDonalds, where without the franchise you have nothing. There's no secret sauce in bumper plates and kettle bells.