Does this 3x5 routine cover all the bases?

[ammons]

So I'm a 2-year lifter who spent months and months doing 3x5 Rippetoe and built a good foundation doing that. However, about 5 months ago I hurt my lower back doing deads and now can't do deads or bent rows without pain.

Last week I went to the spinal clinic and the doc actually encouraged me to do all lifting exercises that don't cause pain. Until then I'd been doing a bodyweight-centered workout but now want to get back into lifting.

So here I've devised a Strength Training Program that fulfills my needs (and doesn't have deads/BOBR). Please let me know if you think this covers everything or if you think imbalances will arise.

This is an across the board 3x5 routine. Bodyweight exercises are weighted.

Workout A
Squats
Bench
Incline Bench
Chins

Workout B
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Military Press
Cable Rows
Dips

[tmor6]

What weight are you using? How tall/heavy are you? Deads hurt your back, but Squats don't?

Finally, that doesn't seem like much volume to me, especially for someone who has been lifting for two years.

[ammons]

What weight are you using? How tall/heavy are you? Deads hurt your back, but Squats don't?

Finally, that doesn't seem like much volume to me, especially for someone who has been lifting for two years.

I'm 5'10 and 170. I'm not sure the specific weight yet since this is something I'm returning to but 5 months ago I was benching like 160, DL-ing 240.

The nature of my back injury enables me to do squats without pain as long as I don't lock my knees at any point in the movement. Same with SLDL: I should have no problem doing that as long as my knees are bent.

[BloodandThunder]

IMHO, determine what you were doing wrong in the first place and correct that before getting more serious with training loads. Replacing DLs with SLDLs won't gloss over that issue either. Proper movement patterns and correcting mobility is more important for long term progress.

Eventually, your erectors and posterior will need to be loaded by a DL to ensure symmetry and proper progress. Otherwise, you'll be held back by those areas in your squat for example.

[ammons]

bump

[Meat_Head]

We need to know what exactly your back injury is. If you strained your back, it's likely due to bad form/bad flexibility/doing too much. If this is the case I would seriously advise seeing a physical therapist, as someone who has been through the same thing. But basically what you will be told to do is stretch the crap out of your lower body, especially glutes/hamstrings, every day, and it works. You will be able to deadlift again

If you're dealing with a disc/vertebrae issue, it's a whole other story.

Also, I have no idea how deadlifts hurt your back but stiff legged deadlifts don't!

[ammons]

We need to know what exactly your back injury is. If you strained your back, it's likely due to bad form/bad flexibility/doing too much. If this is the case I would seriously advise seeing a physical therapist, as someone who has been through the same thing. But basically what you will be told to do is stretch the crap out of your lower body, especially glutes/hamstrings, every day, and it works. You will be able to deadlift again

If you're dealing with a disc/vertebrae issue, it's a whole other story.

Also, I have no idea how deadlifts hurt your back but stiff legged deadlifts don't!

I have met with a physical therapist and she's the one who recommended I more or less return to the heavy lifting program I was doing (with of course, a bunch of stretches).

Her rationale was this: I CAN do these exercises without pain, I just really need to hone in on form and be incredibly careful. As for why stiff leg deadlifts don't hurt my lower back, I do them with a form that puts all weight on my glutes and hams. Thus, the part of my spine that's hurt is never engaged in the motion.

I guess my question is more about this routine: does it look good otherwise?

[Meat_Head]

As for why stiff leg deadlifts don't hurt my lower back, I do them with a form that puts all weight on my glutes and hams. Thus, the part of my spine that's hurt is never engaged in the motion.

This is entirely impossible. Are there separate sections of the spine? Yes. Do they work independently? No.

If your physical therapist or anyone else told you differently, they're full of shit.

Once again, what is the nature of your injury? Without this information, NO ONE can give you good advice.

I guess my question is more about this routine: does it look good otherwise?

Yes, that routine looks good. I think you'll be selling yourself a bit short, but it'll work.

[ammons]

This is entirely impossible. Are there separate sections of the spine? Yes. Do they work independently? No.

If your physical therapist or anyone else told you differently, they're full of shit.

Once again, what is the nature of your injury? Without this information, NO ONE can give you good advice.



Yes, that routine looks good. I think you'll be selling yourself a bit short, but it'll work.

OK how do you mean I'm selling myself short? Cause that's what I'm worried about. I just don't want to overdo it.

[ammons]

OK how do you mean I'm selling myself short? Cause that's what I'm worried about. I just don't want to overdo it.

... So I've added iso exercises @ the end of each, here's the updated version:

Workout A
Squats
Bench
Incline Bench
Chins
3x10/8/6 DB Shrugs

Workout B
Stiff Leg Deadlift
Military Press
Cable Rows
Tricep Dips
3x10/8/6 EZ Bar Curls

[Meat_Head]

Certainly better. That'll work just fine

[Sirtificate]

Honestly, I think the posterior chain seems very neglected. At the very least (assuming your back is healthy) I would change cable rows to barbell rows.

I had some bad back injuries and working my posterior with good form helped it out a ton. I used to not be able to sit down with extreme pain with a giant lump in my back. Now that lump is almost gone and my back feels great. Don't load up a dead lift with the wrong form but I would not say to hide from it... It will be scary.

But I am a dude on the internet. Don't listen to me over your doctor

[ammons]

No I agree, posterior chain is important, and that's why I'm doing the cable rows and chins. But @ this point barbell rows are str8 up impossible, since bending over and then pulling something is what causes the pain.

What else would you reccommend for the post? What'd you do in your recovery?

Honestly, I think the posterior chain seems very neglected. At the very least (assuming your back is healthy) I would change cable rows to barbell rows.

I had some bad back injuries and working my posterior with good form helped it out a ton. I used to not be able to sit down with extreme pain with a giant lump in my back. Now that lump is almost gone and my back feels great. Don't load up a dead lift with the wrong form but I would not say to hide from it... It will be scary.

But I am a dude on the internet. Don't listen to me over your doctor

[RFabsik]

I usually think of the glutes, hips, low back, hamstrings as the key muscles of the posterior chain.

So besides Stiff Legged Deadlift how are you hitting those areas? Squat do to some extent.

[Sirtificate]

Ammons - Mostly deads and squat. Not sure if this is the correct thing to do but it worked for me. I believe I suffered my injuries because I was a curl and bench jockey before I found this place... I was the worst lol. I did squat but not as much as I should have and my back was complete mush.

Like I said, listen to your doc before me. I can only tell you that conv deads can help in some cases, mine being one of them. I just started Goodmornings because I was scared before. Im paying attention to form more than pushing the weights atm however.

Like your doc said, if it hurts I would drop the exercise. Sucks its one of the best though.


EDIT: BTW i didn't get hurt and jump straight into the deads. I didnt lift for a good 6 months. I had rehab for 3 months which included tons of stretches and that shock treatment which worked great. My favorite stretch was (while lying down) bringing your knee towards your chest.

[ammons]

I usually think of the glutes, hips, low back, hamstrings as the key muscles of the posterior chain.

So besides Stiff Legged Deadlift how are you hitting those areas? Squat do to some extent.

Yeah I just looked up posterior chain and you're totally right on that. I'm only doing SLDLs and Front Squats for these areas, as well as a few targeted stretches. I'm also doing cable rows, but not sure if that does anything.

[ammons]

Ammons - Mostly deads and squat. Not sure if this is the correct thing to do but it worked for me. I believe I suffered my injuries because I was a curl and bench jockey before I found this place... I was the worst lol. I did squat but not as much as I should have and my back was complete mush.

Like I said, listen to your doc before me. I can only tell you that conv deads can help in some cases, mine being one of them. I just started Goodmornings because I was scared before. Im paying attention to form more than pushing the weights atm however.

Like your doc said, if it hurts I would drop the exercise. Sucks its one of the best though.


EDIT: BTW i didn't get hurt and jump straight into the deads. I didnt lift for a good 6 months. I had rehab for 3 months which included tons of stretches and that shock treatment which worked great. My favorite stretch was (while lying down) bringing your knee towards your chest.

Thanks sir, sound advice. I'm definitely all about form now, having learned the hard way the cost of not paying close attention to it

[Meat_Head]

Like I said, listen to your doc before me. I can only tell you that conv deads can help in some cases, mine being one of them. I just started Goodmornings because I was scared before. Im paying attention to form more than pushing the weights atm however.

Like your doc said, if it hurts I would drop the exercise. Sucks its one of the best though

No offense Sirtificate, but the last thing this guy needs to be doing is listen to his doc. Physical therapist? That's one thing. Chiropractor? That's another.

Family doctor?

I would eat shit before taking a family doctor's advice.

Speaking of eating shit, your average MD has 3 hours of nutritional education. Basically, that means that most of the senior members of this website(among others) know far more than the average family doctor about nutrition, diet, etc. You're a fool if you don't do your research.

On that note, your family doctor knows exactly dogshit about posterior chain and/or CNS injuries.

OP, you refuse to state the nature of your back injury. Stop being a pussy and say it...

[Sirtificate]

No offense Sirtificate, but the last thing this guy needs to be doing is listen to his doc. Physical therapist? That's one thing. Chiropractor? That's another.

Family doctor?

I would eat shit before taking a family doctor's advice.

Speaking of eating shit, your average MD has 3 hours of nutritional education. Basically, that means that most of the senior members of this website(among others) know far more than the average family doctor about nutrition, diet, etc. You're a fool if you don't do your research.

On that note, your family doctor knows exactly dogshit about posterior chain and/or CNS injuries.

OP, you refuse to state the nature of your back injury. Stop being a pussy and say it...

I will give you more background since you are ignorant. I Pulled my back as CNA lifting a client out of wheelchair instead of dropping a 300 lb person. Deadlifted that person while he/she was falling when I weighed 140 lbs at 17 years old (dead weight different than a bar) My mother is very high up in health care and my insurance through the company let me go where ever I wanted to go. Have spent a great deal of time in a hospital taking to doctors, rehab therapists, and all of the likes. I am not ignorant on doctors. I have a good deal of knowledge on what doctors do and do not know. I have great knowledge on rehab. Do not tell someone they do not have good health care advice. Do not speak about such you do not know. Doctors have to go through 8 years of schooling alone then residence, then practice under a doctor. MOST of whom know more about nutrition than you ever would.

Guessing this is not enough for you. I went to my family doctor, who told me that he was not a SPECIALIZED SPORTS DOCTOR (DUH?) I then went to the most highly recommended sports doc in Omaha. And if you think you know more people in the indrustry... btw my mother who is responsible for turning the shittiest hospitals (In terms of fucking up which patient gets what they need for health care) and I, who have met dozens of sports rehab doctors with thousands of cases under their belt don't know the subject of rehab. Then you are dead wrong.

To the OP, DO NOT risk the rest of your lifting/walking straight up career on a "meathead". Listen to someone who has spent 16 or more years of their life and who have to have insurance incase they have a malpractice suit.

Just because your family doctor doesn't know shit doesn't mean you are qualified, Meathead. Neither am I, nor do I claim to be. I told him what helped my case, and my case alone. I also told him what any logical doctor or lifter would tell you... if the exercise hurts, either drop it or you are doing it wrong. You just told him to stop being a pussy.

[Sirtificate]

I will give you more background since you are ignorant. I Pulled my back as CNA lifting a client out of wheelchair instead of dropping a 300 lb person. Deadlifted that person while he/she was falling when I weighed 140 lbs at 17 years old (dead weight different than a bar) My mother is very high up in health care and my insurance through the company let me go where ever I wanted to go. Have spent a great deal of time in a hospital taking to doctors, rehab therapists, and all of the likes. I am not ignorant on doctors. I have a good deal of knowledge on what doctors do and do not know. I have great knowledge on rehab. Do not tell someone they do not have good health care advice. Do not speak about such you do not know. Doctors have to go through 8 years of schooling alone then residence, then practice under a doctor. MOST of whom know more about nutrition than you ever would.

Guessing this is not enough for you. I went to my family doctor, who told me that he was not a SPECIALIZED SPORTS DOCTOR (DUH?) I then went to the most highly recommended sports doc in Omaha. And if you think you know more people in the indrustry... btw my mother who is responsible for turning the shittiest hospitals (In terms of fucking up which patient gets what they need for health care) and I, who have met dozens of sports rehab doctors with thousands of cases under their belt don't know the subject of rehab. Then you are dead wrong.

To the OP, DO NOT risk the rest of your lifting/walking straight up career on a "meathead" who is one of the smallest on the forum. Listen to someone who has spent 16 or more years of their life and who have to have insurance incase they have a malpractice suit.

Just because your family doctor doesn't know shit doesn't mean you are qualified, Meathead. Neither am I, nor do I claim to be. I told him what helped my case, and my case alone. I also told him what any logical doctor or lifter would tell you... if the exercise hurts, either drop it or you are doing it wrong. You just told him to stop being a pussy.

Sorry, Meathead, in advance. This post is a little harsh and rash considering you were not targeting me. I just do not think your advice should be given to anybody with any sort of injury. He clearly stated he was (should be) deadlifting fine before the injury as anybody that does months and months of riptoes should be. He sounds like he is not giving excuses but needs help. Otherwise Im sure he would still be on Riptoes. Again, I am not going to edit my post but instead apologize.

[Meat_Head]

I will give you more background since you are ignorant. I Pulled my back as CNA lifting a client out of wheelchair instead of dropping a 300 lb person. Deadlifted that person while he/she was falling when I weighed 140 lbs at 17 years old (dead weight different than a bar) My mother is very high up in health care and my insurance through the company let me go where ever I wanted to go. Have spent a great deal of time in a hospital taking to doctors, rehab therapists, and all of the likes. I am not ignorant on doctors. I have a good deal of knowledge on what doctors do and do not know. I have great knowledge on rehab. Do not tell someone they do not have good health care advice. Do not speak about such you do not know. Doctors have to go through 8 years of schooling alone then residence, then practice under a doctor. MOST of whom know more about nutrition than you ever would.

This is simply not true. One basic course (and, again, this is all of the nutritional training most family doctors have) in nutrition is nothing. I wouldn't take a 3 hour course in basic mechanics and then tell someone they should listen to me about fixing their truck. Do not listen to a family doctor for nutritional advice, do your research or see someone who specializes in that area. Likewise, do not listen to your family doctor concerning sports injuries. Take what they say into consideration, maybe, but do not assume they are right. Again, see someone who knows the specific area of medicine you're talking about.

I say this as someone who has also gone through a significant back strain when I was younger. My family doctor gave me all kinds of ludicrous advice, thought it was a disc issue when it was clearly muscular. It wasn't until I saw specialists and started working with a physical therapist that I found out what was wrong and learned how to treat it. My family doc had told me I would never squat or deadlift again, and that I'd be crazy to try. My physical therapists told me not to listen to doctors when it comes to these issues. I listened to the physical therapist and boom, I was back to squatting and deadlifting in a matter of months.

Guessing this is not enough for you. I went to my family doctor, who told me that he was not a SPECIALIZED SPORTS DOCTOR (DUH?) I then went to the most highly recommended sports doc in Omaha. And if you think you know more people in the indrustry... btw my mother who is responsible for turning the shittiest hospitals (In terms of fucking up which patient gets what they need for health care) and I, who have met dozens of sports rehab doctors with thousands of cases under their belt don't know the subject of rehab. Then you are dead wrong.

This is just my point, specialists know their shit. Family doctors don't. The OP shouldn't be listening to his family doctor about this.

Just because your family doctor doesn't know shit doesn't mean you are qualified, Meathead. Neither am I, nor do I claim to be. I told him what helped my case, and my case alone. I also told him what any logical doctor or lifter would tell you... if the exercise hurts, either drop it or you are doing it wrong. You just told him to stop being a pussy.

I never claimed to be qualified. I told him that if he wants any kind of good advice, he needs to tell us exactly what the nature of his injury is, which he does. He refuses to do so... we can't help him. If he's not saying what it is because he doesn't know, this is a serious issue!

Sorry, Meathead, in advance. This post is a little harsh and rash considering you were not targeting me. I just do not think your advice should be given to anybody with any sort of injury. He clearly stated he was (should be) deadlifting fine before the injury as anybody that does months and months of riptoes should be. He sounds like he is not giving excuses but needs help. Otherwise Im sure he would still be on Riptoes. Again, I am not going to edit my post but instead apologize.

No need for apologies, it happens.