GPC or WPC...??? which is the bigger/better/more legit fed?

[Judas]

The USPA runs tons of meets in California every year, all over the state.

Hmmm... interesting. Is that an international fed? or do they associate with one?

[Judas]

The Fit Expo is in Cali I believe. Raw 504 is in Lousiana. I believe the SPF runs a raw Pro/AM typically in Ohio. Hardcore Powerlifting runs promotions at expos in Texas and sometimes in Washington or Oregon. Take a look at what's available on PowerliftingWatch. Most non-tested big meets are these expo or coalition type meets since they offer cash payouts and besides the WPC, there really isn't a singular non-tested fed that has the global reach of say, an IPF.

Hmmm... California, sometimes Oregon and Washington... getting closer.

They're not fudging standards. RAW means different things to different federations. For some that means knee wraps, for others that means none (some feds didn't allow wrist wraps at one point). It's not like they were suddenly allowing single ply briefs or deadlifting straps and still calling it raw. They're simply meeting a demand of the customer as IPA has very loyal lifters and since there is a lack of a true, singular national championship, PWatch rankings are about as close as we have (not to mention, higher ranking can open up sponsorship opportunities and be good for federation image, etc.).

This is where i take issue. "Meeting the demand of the customer' by making a raw division not raw, yet still calling it raw? They should tell the customer there is a division for gear. Let them use wraps there. Fuck people... YOU can either lift the weight or YOU cant. I cant squat 700lbs. If i put on wraps and do it tomorrow i still cannot squat 700lbs. Period. Anyways... this thread was not to argue that old topic again. I think i've gotten my answers. Thanks.

[Bruiser]

That same argument can be made for virtually every federation. And yes, even the IPF includes questionable calls. I have personally been at recent SPF meets where GOOD squats were turned down.

True. I think the main issue is that in a lot of cases the people putting on/judging the meets are also gym owners/trainers. Of course they're going to play favorites with their own athletes. We need more people (who are not personally involved with the athletes) to step up and help put meets together.

[joey54]

Judas, no belt or wrist wraps for you either?

[Workhorse]

If you are worried about having a "legit" ROM, the best of them out there is IPF in my opinion. If that's what you want, get off the banned stuff on the WADA list and do an IPF meet. Period.

[Judas]

Judas, no belt or wrist wraps for you either?

Personally, i dont wear them or use them ever, just weightlifting shoes for me, but i could give a shit if others use 'em. I'd never want to take belts out ov strength sports... No one would even show up. No ones getting 40lbs outta wrist wraps either. Knee wraps are a serious mechanical advantage.

[Judas]

If you are worried about having a "legit" ROM, the best of them out there is IPF in my opinion. If that's what you want, get off the banned stuff on the WADA list and do an IPF meet. Period.

Actually, its not about being on anything... i've felt like this about testing since day one. Testing is bullshit. Period. It ONLY hinders the countries that take it seriously (North America). WADA is getting way the fuck out ov hand, and the way things are going with them they'll not stop until they have the power ov Homeland Security. I want nothing to do with them, and not a dime ov my money will go to that corrupt entity.

[chris mason]

I AM an OLympic lifter. I know all about their back squats. What you are saying is that the majority ov elite powerlifters, who's very game is literally 1/3 squat (the other 2/3 being bench/dead) choose to do a harder form ov squat when chasing all-time world records? I do happen to believe that the best raw squatters are Olympic lifters, but everything else being equal, i'd bet money on the PL-style monolift squatter thats 4-6" high every time. Its the depth that is the distinct advantage.

Where did I say the majority of elite powerlifters are doing it? What I said are many do it. There are may raw powerlifters out there.

I think you are confusing geared training with raw. Multi-ply gear precludes getting below parallel for the most part and definitely precludes an Olympic style bounce. I am comparing a raw squat of each style. If a lifter gets a bounce out of the hole they are going to lift just as much, and typically more than a lifter who actually comes to an unsupported stop at roughly parallel.

Your 4-6" number is really silly. I don't see many 4-6" high squats getting passed anywhere.

Now, if a lifter stops 1" below parallel and is not so massive as to be able to get a bounce from that position vs. a lifter stopping 1" above parallel the above lifter has an advantage, but that is not what happens in reality. Most raw lifters get down and utilize the strength reflex and tissue "bounce" by going deep. That is why they do it.

[Workhorse]

Actually, its not about being on anything... i've felt like this about testing since day one. Testing is bullshit. Period. It ONLY hinders the countries that take it seriously (North America). WADA is getting way the fuck out ov hand, and the way things are going with them they'll not stop until they have the power ov Homeland Security. I want nothing to do with them, and not a dime ov my money will go to that corrupt entity.

I see your point, but the guys that I know that bash the IPF, are just the ones who wouldn't pass the pee test - hence my assumption. Sorry.

[Judas]

Where did I say the majority of elite powerlifters are doing it? What I said are many do it. There are may raw powerlifters out there.

Okay, lets break this down.

You said Olympic squats give the highest potential ultimate number... due to the bounce. I countered by saying that if that was true, all the best raw squatters in the world would be doing Olympic squats. My argument hinges on the next point below.

I think you are confusing geared training with raw. Multi-ply gear precludes getting below parallel for the most part and definitely precludes an Olympic style bounce. I am comparing a raw squat of each style. If a lifter gets a bounce out of the hole they are going to lift just as much, and typically more than a lifter who actually comes to an unsupported stop at roughly parallel.

I am talking (in general) multi-ply FEDS... as so far, that is where the highest raw squats have been done in the sport ov powerlifting, likely due to the lack ov drug testing. The majority ov raw squatters breaking these records in multi-ply feds squat high (as compared to IPF rulebook standard). I'm not talking about an unsupported stop at roughly parallel... i'm talking well above parallel. Big difference. Oly bounce vs parallel PL style = bigger Oly bounce. Oly bounce vs typical WR MP fed PL style = bigger MP PL style.

Your 4-6" number is really silly. I don't see many 4-6" high squats getting passed anywhere.

No it isn't. Now generally... the vast majority ov MP squats are below that... 1-3" above seems a charitable average, but when the envelope gets pushed in those feds, we all know the standards loosen up a bit. I have seen it with my own eyes and i've only been to three MP events. There is enough Youtube evidence to choke the site as well. Further, there is a reason why the SPF, the worst offender by all accounts, doesn't allow cameras from a side angle...

Now, if a lifter stops 1" below parallel and is not so massive as to be able to get a bounce from that position vs. a lifter stopping 1" above parallel the above lifter has an advantage, but that is not what happens in reality. Most raw lifters get down and utilize the strength reflex and tissue "bounce" by going deep. That is why they do it.

Yes. You see this a lot in the IPF... the benefits ov various styles, but again, in the MP feds we're discussing here, its pretty rare to find a top-tier raw squatter with that Olympic style.

[Judas]

I see your point, but the guys that I know that bash the IPF, are just the ones who wouldn't pass the pee test - hence my assumption. Sorry.

Understood. Just coming from weightlifting (IWF) and spending the last 7 years coaching at a high level in the IPF i've concluded that testing only helps the cheaters. There are many reasons why the Eastern Europeans and Asians, sometimes South Americans, rule these feds, and a big one is the testing. In America testing tries to ensure everyone is clean. In Russia testing tries to make sure that 1, their guys win, and 2, their guys dont get caught. Either loosen North American standards to Eastern European standards, or tighten theirs to our... until then, i'm not competing under a severely tilted playing field. I dont think thats an unreasonable request.

[RhodeHouse]

Sounds like you're just scared to go lift. All I hear are excuses. Pick a meet and lift. Grow a pair and stop crying about this fed or that fed and the IPf being deeper. You're full of shit and have no clue what you're talking about.

[J L S]

I was under the understanding we competed in this sport for the love of lifting heavy shit and breaking your own PR's. Be proud of your own accomplishments and better them. Not compare them to everybody elses.

you think somebody like blaine sumner gives a shit about what everybody else is doing or what federation they are lifting in, tested or un tested, different opinions on depth, knee wraps or no knee wraps. Hell no, he's strong and he lifts big weights, and he will ALWAYS be strong and lift big weights regardless of what federations rules he adheres to or chooses to lift in.

[BloodandThunder]

Clearly the answer to this problem is to form your own fed.

Canada has 6 according to PWatch. Have some Canadian pride and maybe someday you can match the 47 federations Americans can enter.

Rhodes said it better than I could articulate. Just go lift to your standard in whatever fed you can. At the end of the day, if your PR's are set to your standard and within the rules, than what else is there. If you want competition, the options have been laid out.

[Judas]

Sounds like you're just scared to go lift. All I hear are excuses. Pick a meet and lift. Grow a pair and stop crying about this fed or that fed and the IPf being deeper. You're full of shit and have no clue what you're talking about.

Clear out the cataracts son or learn to read English, my case is pretty simple. I HAVE competed (have you?) and there are no excuses, fear or any ov your issues here. Try again. A level playing field would be nice... is all i've been saying.

(see how easy it is to be a tough guy with a keyboard?)

[Judas]

I was under the understanding we competed in this sport for the love of lifting heavy shit and breaking your own PR's. Be proud of your own accomplishments and better them. Not compare them to everybody elses.

you think somebody like blaine sumner gives a shit about what everybody else is doing or what federation they are lifting in, tested or un tested, different opinions on depth, knee wraps or no knee wraps. Hell no, he's strong and he lifts big weights, and he will ALWAYS be strong and lift big weights regardless of what federations rules he adheres to or chooses to lift in.

I was under the understanding it was a sport. Sport is competition, as in, against other people. The first paragraph seems a very North American mindset... everyone wins and i'm only competing with myself. To each his own i guess.

Heh... Sumner has the biggest raw squat in the hardest fed to lift in... he can think whatever the hell, he wants to.

I just heard ov another one yesterday, talking to some lifters at the local CPU meet. Ironwars in Washington... Justin Randall's (from here) meet? Sounds pretty big and not too far away. Good timing for me too... October.

[joey54]

This probably will continue to escalate, so let's attempt to remain somewhat civil.

[MaxPL]

Guys, few post from my side in this forum by now. But I'll try to say something about the Judas question. Judas, I think I understand your trouble with squat depth and all this stuff, this feds fragmentation it's and endless discussion ...anyway if you are already competed you'll have to restart somewhere. I guess you'd be a badass in IPF raw championship. Don't know if you can manage the participation. But given your training log, my take is that you have to go heavy in the raw world cup IPF. It may be worth to try.

[joey54]

Per request of the op we are closing this thread. Thanks to everyone for participating.