Do you use speed (dynamic effort method) in your training?

[RhodeHouse]

I think it's a part of training that should be addressed, but it depends on your strengths as a lifter how important it is.

I'm pretty explosive. I don't feel it's necessary for me to use. I push all of my stes with maximal force. For those that are just plain slow, I think it has it's place in their training.

For those with no muscle, it's a waste of time. You can't flex bone. No need for speed work if you can see or feel bones in your chest, shoulders and arms. It's just like speed training for athletes. if you're weak and have no muscle, speed training is a waste.

[SEOINAGE]

I don't usually use speed work on bench, although I am implementing it now for a few weeks till competition since I can bench more frequent with it. I find I make better bench progress doing a 5x5 with straight weight, helps my raw bench moreso than speed work ever does.

I still do speed squats about every other week, although doing it more now for a bit. It seems to help fairly well, although not so much that I am neglecting my regular squats, do a fair amount of 5 rep work with them.

[naites]

You do know you can still do speed bench and also your other work as well. For example, you can do speed 9 sets of 3 (only takes like 10 mins!). Then you can do your 5x5 sets since you feel that helps you.

When I hear people say they hate this or that it's almost as if they think we do speed/max effort lift then leave the gym and are done. hehe

Some guys do speed sets followed by 5x5 on an assistance press or 3 sets of 6 on a heavy assistance press or some just do lighter high rep stuff like 3/5 sets of 10+ reps on something like extensions.

Why not get the best of all worlds?

[Travis Bell]

I think it's a part of training that should be addressed, but it depends on your strengths as a lifter how important it is.

I'm pretty explosive. I don't feel it's necessary for me to use. I push all of my stes with maximal force. For those that are just plain slow, I think it has it's place in their training.

For those with no muscle, it's a waste of time. You can't flex bone. No need for speed work if you can see or feel bones in your chest, shoulders and arms. It's just like speed training for athletes. if you're weak and have no muscle, speed training is a waste.

I see your point, however if it were just all genetics, those of us who are considered explosive wouldn't have to train said reflex at all ever. Just because you have the genetic potential doesn't mean you are automatically there or once you attain your genetic potential you stay there for the rest of your life.

One of the things I see is guys get stuck in a rut with their DE stuff. They do the same two or three workouts for years and that's why they quit getting faster. I've been guilty of this myself. You have to constantly be changing stuff to make it work. Just like jump workouts for athletes. If you do the same box jump workout all the time, an athlete won't get any better at their vertical.

I can tolerate quite a bit of volume on training, but I think 5x5 after speed sets would be too much. Combining the two for me at least would get me in trouble. I could see overuse injuries in my near future should I try that.

[chris mason]

Chris, I have also been to a few seminars and met Louie (trained there a few times) so don't just assume you know more Been training the Westside methods since 1998. You? 800+ bench at 242 class for some backup

We both made some valid points on why we do speed lifting. I agree with both of us.

You most certainly outbench me, then again, I would guess I can pull more than you. Have we compared dicks sufficiently now?

I do know more than you. I say that based upon what you had to say about speed benching. You are wrong. It's that simple. Now, that doesn't mean you don't know anything, nor does it mean you are not strong, it means you are wrong in what you stated about DE bench work as it relates to Westside and the principles upon which is it based.

[chris mason]

I think it's a part of training that should be addressed, but it depends on your strengths as a lifter how important it is.

I'm pretty explosive. I don't feel it's necessary for me to use. I push all of my stes with maximal force. For those that are just plain slow, I think it has it's place in their training.

For those with no muscle, it's a waste of time. You can't flex bone. No need for speed work if you can see or feel bones in your chest, shoulders and arms. It's just like speed training for athletes. if you're weak and have no muscle, speed training is a waste.

Not really. Again, you have to consider what it is. With the addition of the accomodating resistance you are using between roughly 65-75% of your 1RM for multiple sets of 3 reps (8-9 sets). That is a fair amount of volume with a reasonable resistance. If you move through the sets relatively quickly they can certainly provide a hypertrophy stimulus especially for those who are relatively undeveloped.

You also have to be careful how you are defining speed training as it applies to athletes. Are we talking strength speed, or speed strength?

[naites]

Wow, what a class act you are Mr. Admin!

[joey54]

Well it takes two to tango. You are the one who choose to argue with the owner of the site, who does know quite a bit about training. It seems you do as well and in the big picture, this little bickering back and forth should not de-rail an informative topic.

[Alex.V]

Aye, if y'all just hugged it out, it'd be some great conversation.

Well, don't actually hug it out. Nobody wants to see that. But you know what I mean.

[Justin Randal]

Speed work is a huge part of my training! For those of you who say you don't need it, that's fine by me. I'll leave no stone unturned and be as well rounded as possible. Thanks for the edge!!

[Justin Randal]

Chris,

Though I understand the difference between strength speed and speed strength, Wouldn't you say they are directly related? What I mean to ask is- Does speed strength development directly effect strength speed? In my experience the answer is yes, I just don't know why. Please discuss..

[Brian Hopper]

Since we are kinda more focusing on bench at this point, I'll direct my question towards that.

When you guys say you were tore up from benching twice a week, what exactly felt tore up?

I realize as a bench only lifter I often can forego squat or deadlift training if I have to, to recover from benching, but it rarely happens. Actually I often do two workouts on ME day and still feel good to go on DE day for speed bench. I know a common thing I hear is beat up triceps or elbows, or sometimes biceps. Is it a weight thing? Technique thing?

I'm just curious as to what causes people to drop the DE bench is all.

Travis, I think my problem was that I would do my regular bench session heavy and then a couple days later I would do speed bench. So I was pretty much flat benching 2x a week. I think If I took a more WSB approach by doing floor presses, reverse band, boards, inclines, and throwing in different bars, then I wouldn't get burned out. But for me, flat benching all the time around 85-95% and then adding in speed work, was killing me more mentally then physically...maybe that's why my bench is at a stand still...???

[Travis Bell]

Wow, what a class act you are Mr. Admin!

What on earth was so wrong with what he said? If we are discussing purely in reference to what Louie says and Westside practices, Chris is right. Unless I have misunderstood what Lou has pounded into me for the last 7 years.

No need to get upset though. You both actually agree on the necessity of dynamic effort work so I don't see the problem. You experience is welcomed though. I enjoy hearing everyones experience with different training methods.

Chris,

Though I understand the difference between strength speed and speed strength, Wouldn't you say they are directly related? What I mean to ask is- Does speed strength development directly effect strength speed? In my experience the answer is yes, I just don't know why. Please discuss..

Even though they are related, you still need to train both of them to get the combined effect.

I believe it was in Supertraining (the book, not the gym) where they pointed out that in the absence of any dynamic work, as the body gets stronger and stronger it will also perform slower. So that's where the dynamic work really comes into effect.

How do you all vary your DE work? In my experience DE work needs to be varied all the time to keep you moving forward.

[Travis Bell]

Travis, I think my problem was that I would do my regular bench session heavy and then a couple days later I would do speed bench. So I was pretty much flat benching 2x a week. I think If I took a more WSB approach by doing floor presses, reverse band, boards, inclines, and throwing in different bars, then I wouldn't get burned out. But for me, flat benching all the time around 85-95% and then adding in speed work, was killing me more mentally then physically...maybe that's why my bench is at a stand still...???

Ah, I could see that. So what are you doing instead of the speed bench? Or just nothing and rehabbing instead?

[Brian Hopper]

Ah, I could see that. So what are you doing instead of the speed bench? Or just nothing and rehabbing instead?

I was going back in forth, with close grip work and shoulder presses. But latley i've been trying to work on my OHP. Since you started this post, I've been thinking about going back to a more WS approach with my bench.

[Travis Bell]

i suppose everyone's body responds differently. After the thrashing my upper body takes on ME days, there is no way I could survive a OHP workout a few days after.

[naites]

Of coarse Chris is right and I am completely wrong! Travis so you are using 75% at the top and probably 65% at the bottom? Pretty sure you are well below those percents and so should most lifters. So 540 lbs at bottom and 620 at top for a lifter at your max bench level. haha

I know you will all say yeah he uses less percents because he is advanced. But a beginner should not be a whole lot different in percents. Higher, yes but not that drastic. Here's an example of a beginner that presses 450 in a shirt:
If he used 50% plus 25% bands then he would basically be using Travis' bar weight!!! Not a good idea. 50% of 450 is 225 lbs. Now add the mini bands. That's another 80'ish lbs. So 300+ at lockout. This lifter will move the weight ok but not with the force/speed that say Travis is moving the bar at.

So like I said before it's better to base the %'s off the chest level. ALso, I am pretty sure Louie has even said this before. I know Dave Tate has many times back when I talked with him back around 2001 when I visited. I know, I know Louie is documented and saying a lot of things that are similar but different. Like sometimes the speed is 40%, 50%, 60% or based on your floor press, etc......
OK, back to basing it off chest level for lifters. We will use 50% for the beginner. 450 lbs bench press, 50% is 225. But the band is about 50 lbs at chest level so we need to subtract that from the bar NOT add it. So this lifter will use 175 lbs + the mini band. Now he is well below Travis like he should be. Also using a higher percent than Travis as beginners tend to do.

Anyone see my point here??? Why am I being viewed as so wrong?

It's a common mistake beginners make and use weights too heavy. In some cases a lot of advanced lifters go too heavy as well. I have seen benchers that press in the 600's using 315-365 plus bands/chains for their speed sets!!! Decent speed but not real speed.

Sorry to use you as an example Travis. But you are a good example of an Elite bencher training these methods.

[RFabsik]

Maybe I'm wrong but for bench doesn't Louie recommend using raw numbers or floor press not shirted bench? This would make the bar weight closer to what Naites is suggesting but using Chris's method of calculation.

[Travis Bell]

haha Louie is VERY clear, you use raw percentages.

No you don't use your floor press or board press or whatever. You use your comp grip, full range bench - raw. Not equipped. But yes the weight is as low as 40%

I use between 245 and 275lbs bar weight for my speed bench. That's around 40-45%. However Louie has me switching band tensions and bars around pretty regularly so I just do what he says.

I can't believe I'm arguing about what my own coach does or does not teach haha. You are being viewed wrong because instead of arguing from your own perspective, you are trying to indicate you know better than I do what Louie himself recommends and teaches. I've been there for a very long time, I know what I'm talking about. The stuff you are recalling is bits and pieces that were used even before I was there. But even then it's still a little mixed up but I don't really want to bog down this thread with that.

Now if you want to argue from your own point of view and opinion then that's fine. What works for you has worked and nobody can say differently.

Why not just say that you see a lot of beginner lifters use too much weight and their form will fall apart and the speed is of no benefit?

To which I'd reply I agree. A lot of lifters need to begin without the percentages.

However the percentages is a way to keep the speed bench moving in a positive direction. That's why you wave it. In addition to varying tensions, grips and bars, varying percentages is a good way to change yet another variable.

[Travis Bell]

Maybe I'm wrong but for bench doesn't Louie recommend using raw numbers or floor press not shirted bench? This would make the bar weight closer to what Naites is suggesting but using Chris's method of calculation.

Correct he does recommend using raw numbers.

[chris mason]

Chris,

Though I understand the difference between strength speed and speed strength, Wouldn't you say they are directly related? What I mean to ask is- Does speed strength development directly effect strength speed? In my experience the answer is yes, I just don't know why. Please discuss..

All strengths have some relation, but the degree of correlation varies. Speed strength builds the kind of explosive power one uses to jump, throw a ball, throw a punch etc. That is true speed strength work. It involved very small loads and has essentially zero carryover to absolute strength (although absolute strength, to a degree, can effect it). Strength speed involves moving heavier loads more quickly. It has a significant effect on absolute strength expression.

Does that make sense?

[chris mason]

Naites said:

"So many people don't know how to do speed benching. On an above post one guy said 50% and then bands on top of that (25% more).

That is totally wrong. Yeah you can move that with decent speed but NOT real speed."

You were wrong because you were ignorant of the context. As stated, the percentages are based on one's raw bench, not shirted.

You jumped on a statement I made because your were ignorant to the facts. That is pretty much par for the course in this world, so you are not unique to that end.

I agree with you that many, many people use too great of a load for proper speed work. That is a very common error.

[GazzyG]

Regardless of the mud-slinging going on in here, this thread has inspired me to get some bands so I can crack on with adding some accomodating resistance to my speed-work. Mini and light bands all arrived this morning

[naites]

BTW, there are many articles of Louie saying it's based off the max floor press. I know people have read them. I am not making this up.

Even based off peoples best raw full range most people are way too high in bar weight. So that doesn't change my point.

Enough arguing over pretty much the same points... I think we can all agree on like you said. The percents are all guide lines and a lifter needs to base it all off speed. I just see way too many lifters not understand this and they go too heavy. Almost like they think this, "Oh, so and so uses 225 for speed weight and comp benches 700 lbs. So if I use that same weight I will also." Not realizing he is not moving the bar nearly as fast as the real 700 lb bencher.

The wrong implementation of speed benching is why I think a lot of guys drop it for other stuff. If they are going to use a weight too heavy for speed for ego than they are better off dropping speed and just doing 5x5 or some kind of rep method they prefer.

Sorry guys for coming off the way I did. I am a big believer in speed benching and the conjugate methods. I guess after so many years of seeing people do it wrong and not understand followed by them dropping Westside that I get frustrated. If they would only give it a real chance by doing it somewha correctly.

[Justin Randal]

All strengths have some relation, but the degree of correlation varies. Speed strength builds the kind of explosive power one uses to jump, throw a ball, throw a punch etc. That is true speed strength work. It involved very small loads and has essentially zero carryover to absolute strength (although absolute strength, to a degree, can effect it). Strength speed involves moving heavier loads more quickly. It has a significant effect on absolute strength expression.

Does that make sense?

Ah I get it now. LOL Thank you..