Do you use speed (dynamic effort method) in your training?

[Justin Randal]

Even though they are related, you still need to train both of them to get the combined effect.

I believe it was in Supertraining (the book, not the gym) where they pointed out that in the absence of any dynamic work, as the body gets stronger and stronger it will also perform slower. So that's where the dynamic work really comes into effect.

How do you all vary your DE work? In my experience DE work needs to be varied all the time to keep you moving forward.

In the beginning I ran 3 week waves for squats and bench and only pulled for speed every 4th week (Between squat waves). Now I typically incorporate speed work every other week and just keep it different each time. On the off weeks I do more BB/hypertrophy work (always trying to get bigger).

[Jonathan E]

In the beginning I ran 3 week waves for squats and bench and only pulled for speed every 4th week (Between squat waves). Now I typically incorporate speed work every other week and just keep it different each time. On the off weeks I do more BB/hypertrophy work (always trying to get bigger).

Do you combine squat and dead on the same day now?

In Louis' book I've read, he likes to place them on the same day, but i'm sure that can be adjusted.

[SEOINAGE]

You do know you can still do speed bench and also your other work as well. For example, you can do speed 9 sets of 3 (only takes like 10 mins!). Then you can do your 5x5 sets since you feel that helps you.

When I hear people say they hate this or that it's almost as if they think we do speed/max effort lift then leave the gym and are done. hehe

Some guys do speed sets followed by 5x5 on an assistance press or 3 sets of 6 on a heavy assistance press or some just do lighter high rep stuff like 3/5 sets of 10+ reps on something like extensions.

Why not get the best of all worlds?

I understand they do a lot more work, and maybe i should give it a shot and see if that is better. Speed bench just always felt like it was tearing me up in the past. but maybe it's time to bring it back into my routine on a regular basis if i can do it right.

[chris mason]

I understand they do a lot more work, and maybe i should give it a shot and see if that is better. Speed bench just always felt like it was tearing me up in the past. but maybe it's time to bring it back into my routine on a regular basis if i can do it right.

As stated, if you feel like it tore you up you likely were using poor form and or too high of a load. Speed benching should not tear you up at all.

[RhodeHouse]

BTW, there are many articles of Louie saying it's based off the max floor press. I know people have read them. I am not making this up.

Even based off peoples best raw full range most people are way too high in bar weight. So that doesn't change my point.

Enough arguing over pretty much the same points... I think we can all agree on like you said. The percents are all guide lines and a lifter needs to base it all off speed. I just see way too many lifters not understand this and they go too heavy. Almost like they think this, "Oh, so and so uses 225 for speed weight and comp benches 700 lbs. So if I use that same weight I will also." Not realizing he is not moving the bar nearly as fast as the real 700 lb bencher.

The wrong implementation of speed benching is why I think a lot of guys drop it for other stuff. If they are going to use a weight too heavy for speed for ego than they are better off dropping speed and just doing 5x5 or some kind of rep method they prefer.

Sorry guys for coming off the way I did. I am a big believer in speed benching and the conjugate methods. I guess after so many years of seeing people do it wrong and not understand followed by them dropping Westside that I get frustrated. If they would only give it a real chance by doing it somewha correctly.

I've read every article Louie has written. HE HAS NEVER SAID USE THE FLOOR PRESS to base your DE numbers off of. NEVER! Then to argue with a guy that train with Louie?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Too many people don't understand the very simple nature of Westside to begin with. Let alone how simple it is to set up a DE cycle.

I'm not a huge believer in DE work unless you're ridiculously slow. That being said, I think DE work shold be done a little heavier if you're a raw bencher. As for shirt work, I can't comment because I don't use that cheater gear. HAHAHAHA!

[ScottYard]

[QUOTE=chris mason;2612843]You most certainly outbench me, then again, I would guess I can pull more than you. Have we compared dicks sufficiently now?

Nice. That had me choking on my coffee.

[BloodandThunder]

I've read every article Louie has written. HE HAS NEVER SAID USE THE FLOOR PRESS to base your DE numbers off of. NEVER! Then to argue with a guy that train with Louie?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Too many people don't understand the very simple nature of Westside to begin with. Let alone how simple it is to set up a DE cycle.

I'm not a huge believer in DE work unless you're ridiculously slow. That being said, I think DE work shold be done a little heavier if you're a raw bencher. As for shirt work, I can't comment because I don't use that cheater gear. HAHAHAHA!

Each of these are old articles - if you read through the Book of Methods or the Powerlifting USA arcticles, he address what to use for DE % - sometimes off a 1RM, off a geared 1RM, off a floor press. I agree with your points though (congrats you are awarded several internet points!)

http://www.westside-barbell.com/west...p_benchers.pdf

"After speed bench, using about 40% of a 1-rep max on the floor press,"

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/dynamic-method/
"A 500-pound raw floor presser would use 200 pounds and two sets of 5/8-inch chain for the dynamic method. For 10 sets of 3 reps with bands or chains, the total volume without the accommodating resistance would be 6000 pounds. "

http://www.westside-barbell.com/west...speed_work.pdf
"Speed Bench with Bands. These should be done for 8 or 9 sets of 3 reps. Use 45% of your 1-rep max on floor press." - this is with accomodating resistance and not straight weight DE

[Travis Bell]

He does not recommend using a geared max in any of those articles.

Again, I'm going to reiterate the floor press stuff is from waaaay on back.

If there is some one lineter in the hundreds of articles that he wrote about a geared max, it was long before guys were getting 3 and 400lbs out of their shirts.

If you really want to understand what Louie recommends, read his most recent stuff. Powerlifting as a whole is constantly changing and so does Louies approach on how to best get stronger.

Is anyone's floor press really that different than their full range bench anyways? Mine is usually within 25lbs give or take of my full range bench.

[RhodeHouse]

Each of these are old articles - if you read through the Book of Methods or the Powerlifting USA arcticles, he address what to use for DE % - sometimes off a 1RM, off a geared 1RM, off a floor press. I agree with your points though (congrats you are awarded several internet points!)

http://www.westside-barbell.com/west...p_benchers.pdf

"After speed bench, using about 40% of a 1-rep max on the floor press,"

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/dynamic-method/
"A 500-pound raw floor presser would use 200 pounds and two sets of 5/8-inch chain for the dynamic method. For 10 sets of 3 reps with bands or chains, the total volume without the accommodating resistance would be 6000 pounds. "

http://www.westside-barbell.com/west...speed_work.pdf
"Speed Bench with Bands. These should be done for 8 or 9 sets of 3 reps. Use 45% of your 1-rep max on floor press." - this is with accomodating resistance and not straight weight DE

I stand corrected. Nonetheless, I still believe a rawe bencher should use a slightly higher percentage. Again, I would listen to Travis, as he trains with Louie.

[Brian Hopper]

What is the recommended percentages for raw lifters? 65-75%?

[RFabsik]

About 1.5 years ago when I went to Westside for a CrossFit Powerlifting seminar he was clear to use around 55% of your raw bench for DE work.

When we asked about people who don't use gear, he said nothing really changes for the bench. But, for squats you might try higher percentages.

I later emailed him about what DE percentages raw squatters should use and he said:

"If you only squat off of a box, the weights are 75-85% in three week waves. If you have a contest raw squat, then train 50-60% of that contest squat on a box.

The 50-60% on a box, is calculated off of a gear contest record squat. If you don't compete, and you only squat off of a box, then you train at 75-85%.

Good luck"

To me for the squat this means, use either 75-85% of your 1RM Box squat or 50-60% of your raw contest squat.

For bench it means always calculate via raw numbers.

I have to say it is great to have easy access to Louie, Travis, Chris and all you other powerlifting experts.

[xolix]

http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.c...learn-to-grind

i used de-bench on benchday 2 , after reading this article i changed it to this :

i train 2 days a week bench , day 1 : max effort working up with triples to a 3rm and lockoutwork for 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps , lats, biceps , rear delts

on day 2 : bench working up to a 4-6 rm , shoulders,db work, lats, light triceps . i do it 2 months now and i could increase my 3rm on nearly every me-movement . i lift raw , roidfree.

i was afraid of doing too much and ... till now , all things went very well. no overtraining . important is to not missing a weight .
i am in offseasonmodus now , when i train for a meet , i change the max effort work to 1 rm .

[naites]

Each of these are old articles - if you read through the Book of Methods or the Powerlifting USA arcticles, he address what to use for DE % - sometimes off a 1RM, off a geared 1RM, off a floor press. I agree with your points though (congrats you are awarded several internet points!)

Damn! Atleast one person does not just argue with me saying I am wrong about everything. I was not just making everything up. Everything I have said was basically what I have heard over the years. I know some info is very old out there. But that is where lots of guys get confused. I myself pretty much use the same exact weights as for example Travis. 225'ish with bands or chains for speed. 771 single ply max. 805 multiply max. High 500's raw. But thanks "Blood" for the internet points I was low

I think we can all see the answers here. Nobody is correct on the percents! They are guide lines! Use them and adjust accordingly. Don't up your ego and go heavier. When in doubt go lighter.

Like I said earlier. In my opinion I think most lifters who drop speed work were using too much weight. Maybe we need some new videos on Youtube from Westside showing these lifters what speed should look like I would, but it would probably be completely wrong haha

[Jonathan E]

Haha we should get Louie himself in here to add to some of the discussion. A lot of good shit is being said here.

[SEOINAGE]

As stated, if you feel like it tore you up you likely were using poor form and or too high of a load. Speed benching should not tear you up at all.

Yep you are right. The last couple times I have done it recently they felt ok, even with loads higher than I have ever used in the past, stronger now of course so can't compare it. The only discomfort I felt was simply the discomfort in my biceps and such from heavy squats a couple days before. But I think my form is significantly better than a few years ago too. I have an upper body day in my regular training schedule where I don't bench, probably just put speed bench in there for a while.

[Ripe1]

I had this same conversation with a 2x World champion Oly lifter a week ago. Basically I said the same as Rhodes, if you're fast already why do it. Other than maintenance there's no need for it. So on deload weeks one could do their speed work. The other thing I've been thinking about, if at meets you're going for your 1RM why would you do sets on your speed days?

[BloodandThunder]

I had this same conversation with a 2x World champion Oly lifter a week ago. Basically I said the same as Rhodes, if you're fast already why do it. Other than maintenance there's no need for it. So on deload weeks one could do their speed work. The other thing I've been thinking about, if at meets you're going for your 1RM why would you do sets on your speed days?

It takes a certain frequency and training volume to elicit a certain trait. If a lifter lacks the strength speed to move a heavier load by keeping the arms tucked in the bench through the area where the bar speed slows down, repeated sets with an applicable load moved as quickly as possible with good technique will help develop this ability. Speed work done with no attention to technique and "going through the motions" rarely leads to PRs. Watch videos of WS lifters doing DE box squats - same approach, intensity, and focus as any other day.

If you were a coach and perscribed speed work for a majority of your lifters, I'd bet 100% of the time that a group who were focused on technique and applying max force will be hitting more PRs than the group who's just doing 8 x 3 and getting through it ("Light Day").

Take a 8 - 10 x 3 set vs. doing the same weight for 6-10 reps for the same volume. Now you won't be applying the same force throughout that long set, but here the intended goal is different (hypertrophy, strength endurance, etc.). Lifters' form break down during those long sets whereas speed sets with appropriate rest times will allow you to focus purely on the reason for the lagging bench. On that longer set, the mindshift typically goes toward just finishing the set, not actively working the area you're trying to fix.

Speed work is a tool on lifter's belt, just as maximal lifting with variants, bodybuilding assistance, heavy compound supplements, sub-maximal work, repeated effort work, and high rep recovery work are. Many great powerlifters didn't do specific speed work but just applied excellent CAT to all their sets. Just as some powerlifters stick with volume in the 70-85% zone as opposed to linear periodization or the old 8's, 5's, 3's, and 2's.