Hopefully this doesn't spark a debate

[PowerManDL]

Originally posted by Saturday Fever
Did you know that the bible calls for christian women to cover themselves as do muslim women? Unfortunately that was not fashionable when christianity took hold in Europe, so they dismissed it. Now there are versions of the bible where that passage has been rewritten to make no mention of the fact.

All points aside, what kind of God writes archaic, misogynistic bull**** like that?

No, Mohammed did not write the Quraan. The Quraan was told to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel (because no man could possibly speak directly to God)

Wow, this God fella's pretty high on himself, isn't he?

I can discredit John Smith pretty easily I think. He said, and this is included in the book of mormon, that evil people are turned black. And when they become good again, they will be turned white.

How's that any different from the above-mentioned misogynistic bull****?

Throughout all religions, God has let it be known that there are only two kinds of people. People who follow Him, and people who don't. Besides, read the book of mormon and it exposes itself as obviously fake.

That's a matter of perspective, no?

[Sledgehammer]

If I am not mistaking the Book that you refer to is the books of Moses. The Jews still want to set up the alters for sacrfice right, and Christian belive that Jesus was the payment for our sins.....as foretold in the Old testament......because the laws of moses noone can keep.....hence no muslim follows them as well.....forgive me about this but all these prophets of the Bible are led of God, however gabriel an angel spoke to Mohommad....The many prophets of of Bible support one another hoeevr the Quran(?) is only verified by Mohommad? I am trying to get an understanding...what is interesting is the Three main religions of the world all go back to the same origin.....

[Saturday Fever]

I think you should read the Quraan before you start making assumptions. You seem to have a scattered knowledge of judaism and christianity, but you're wanting to refute the Quraan without any knowledge of it.

As far as ExtremeAnabolic's post stating Constantinople as a flaw in the article I posted...

Where in thet article was Constantinople ever mentioned? The rules of war in the Quraan are very specific and excerpts were given. If indeed those rules were not followed then the perps of those alleged crimes would be hypocrites. Again, the actions of some cannot be the label for all. Otherwise I could call all catholics child molesters and that isn't very accurate is it?

[JustinF]

Originally posted by Saturday Fever
Otherwise I could call all catholics child molesters and that isn't very accurate is it?

Nope, just all the preachers.



p.s. Sorry to degrade the thread. Carry on.

[Sledgehammer]

Well that is why I asked the question.....is my knowledge scattered to a degree yes....but I thought you may be able to answer it. My only understanding of Muslims is from a friend who studied it for a while but 'left" it......but by your own account Moses led the Jews out of captivity right? why then would a Muslim kill Jews today but back then help them escape?

[millertime]

There is no god, no need for a personal savior, no eternal life in heaven or hell. You are fighting for control. Your arguments and wars will outlast us all and in the end you will learn nothing.

[Saturday Fever]

Why would a jew kill a muslim after he helped them escape? The Quraan teches that there 25 prophets. Throughout history there was first Adam. After he and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they asked God for forgiveness and he forgave them and Adam became his first true follower. This continued on through the prophets. Let's look at Abraham. There were prophets before him but the people had abandoned what the previous prophets said. So God chose Abraham to teach the people again. Still later he chose Moses to be his prophet. To once again remind the people that there is but one God. Still further down the road there was Jesus. Again, the people had strayed from the straight path and Jesus came to remind and guide the people back to the will of God. Again still there came Mohammed reciting the Quraan. The Quraan is yet another reminder of God's word.

So you may have followed what you thought were the teachings of Moses, but then you deny Jesus? Or you may have followed Jesus, but then denied the Quraan brought through Mohammed? There are clear signs, if you're a religious person, that these people were coming. It is up to the person to accept it or not.

[Sledgehammer]

So of all the prophets you mentioned all are in the Bible as we know it, except Mohammad.....the Quraan was recorded much later than any of the Bible right? Whay I read from the Bible all refer back to itself in the Bible, but then later a second book is recorded and it contradicts much of the Bible.......

[Saturday Fever]

Mohammed came roughly 600 years after Jesus. The bible as it exists today was written over 100 years after Jesus ascended. I've already said this but think about that. Over 100 years. Which means it was written by people who were not even alive when Jesus was on Earth. And it was written by Paul who was busy creating the Catholic church. That's why the bible is always worded as "It was said that..." or "So-and-so said that..." It isn't even third person. It's a collection of stories that were manipulated by Paul to benefit the church he was creating. And if a story didn't fit his idea, he cast it out it can now be found in a book titled the Apocraphy. The Gospels Jesus brought with him were the second book following the Torah brought by Moses. The Quraan was the third, and if you read it you'd see it doesn't contradict anything.

[Sledgehammer]

Well with that the first book and second refer to a messiah, and Jesus fit the prophecies that told of him coming in the Old Books.....why the need of a third book?600 years after the second and first where butchered? so no one had any true guidence? also the first part of the Gspels were written by others than Paul.....by four other writters telling what happened....so those do not influnce the building of the church.....

[Saturday Fever]

BIBLE PROPHECIES ABOUT THE ADVENT OF MUHAMMAD


Abraham is widely regarded as the Patriarch of monotheism and the common father of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. Through His second son, Isaac, came all Israelite prophets including such towering figures as Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus. May peace and blessings be upon them all. The advent of these great prophets was in partial fulfillment of God's promises to bless the nations of earth through the descendents of Abraham (Genesis 1 2:2-3). Such fulfillment is wholeheartedly accepted by Muslims whose faith considers the belief in and respect of all prophets an article of faith.



BLESSINGS OF ISHMAEL AND ISAAC
Was the first born son of Abraham (Ishmael) and his descendants included in God's covenant and promise? A few verses from the Bible may help shed some light on this question;

1) Genesis 12:2-3 speaks of God's promise to Abraham and his descendants before any child was born to him.

2) Genesis 17:4 reiterates God's promise after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac.

3) In Genesis, ch. 21. Isaac is specifically blessed but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become "a great nation" especially in Genesis 21-13, 18.

4) According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17 the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a "free" woman such as Sarah, lsaac's mother, or a "Bondwoman" such as Hagar, Ishmael's mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.

5) The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham's son and "seed" and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham's wife are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3.

After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God's promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600 years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad, from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. God's blessing of both of the main branches of Abraham's family tree was now fulfilled. But are there additional corroborating evidence that the Bible did in fact foretell the advent of prophet Muhammad?



MUHAMMAD:
The Prophet Like Unto Moses
Long time after Abraham, God's promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated this time in Moses' words.

In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is:

1) From among the Israelite's "brethren", a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a "great nation".

2) A prophet like unto Moses. There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslim belief Jesus was).



THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS
TO COME FROM ARABIA
Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca).

Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6.

Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.


MUHAMMAD'S MIGRATION FROM MECCA TO MEDINA:
PROPHECIED IN THE BIBLE?
Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God's help) coming from Te'man (an Oasis North of Medina according to J. Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible), and the holy one (coming) from Paran. That holy one who under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to be received enthusiastically in Medina was none but prophet Muhammad.

Indeed the incident of the migration of the prophet and his persecuted followers is vividly described in Isaiah 21:13-17. That section foretold as well about the battle of Badr in which the few ill-armed faithful miraculously defeated the "mighty" men of Ke'dar, who sought to destroy Islam and intimidate their own folks who turned to Islam.


THE QUR'AN (KORAN) FORETOLD IN THE BIBLE?
For twenty-three years, God's words (the Qur'an) were truly put into Muhammad's mouth. He was not the "author" of the Qur'an. The Qur'an was dictated to him by Angel Gabriel who asked Muhammad to simply repeat the words of the Qur'an as he heard them. These words were then committed to memory and to writing by those who hear them during Muhammad's life time and under his supervision.

Was it a coincidence that the prophet "like unto Moses" from the "brethren" of the Israelites (i.e. from the lshmaelites) was also described as one in whose mouth God will put his words and that he will speak in the name of God., (Deuteronomy 18:18- 20). Was it also a coincidence the "Paraclete" that Jesus foretold to come after Him was described as one who "shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak . (John 16:13).

Was it another coincidence that Isaiah ties between the messenger connected with Ke'dar and a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sang unto the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11). More explicitly, prophesies Isaiah "For with stammering lips, and another tongue, will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). This latter verse correctly describes the "stammering lips" of Prophet Muhammad reflecting the state of tension and concentration he went through at the time of revelation. Another related point is that the Qur'an was revealed in piece-meals over a span of twenty-three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28:10 which speaks of the same thing.



THAT PROPHET-
PARACLETE-
MUHAMMAD
Up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him), the Israelites were still awaiting for that prophet like unto Moses prophecied in Deuteronomy 18:18. When John the Baptist came. they asked him if he was Christ and he said "no". They asked him if he was Elias and he said "no". Then, in apparent reference to Deuteronomy 18:18, they asked him "Art thou that Prophet" and he answered, "no". (John 1: 19-2 1).

In the Gospel according to John (Chapters 14, 15, 16) Jesus spoke of the "Paraclete" or comforter who will come after him. who will be sent by Father as another Paraclete. who will teach new things which the contemporaries of Jesus (:could not bear. While the Paraciete is described as the spirit of truth, (whose meaning resemble Muhammad's famous title Al-Amin, the trustworthy), he is identified in one verse as the Holy Ghost (John 14:26). Such a designation is however inconsistent with the profile of that Paraclete. In the words of the Dictionary of the Bible, (Ed. J. Mackenzie) "These items, it must be admitted do not give an entirely coherent picture."

Indeed history tells us that many early Christians understood the Paraclete to be a man and not a spirit. This might explain the followings who responded to some who claimed, without meeting the criteria stipulated by Jesus, to be the awaited "Paraclete".

It was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was the Paraciete, Comforter, helper, admonisher sent by God after Jesus. He testified of Jesus, taught new things which could not be borne at Jesus' time. he spoke what he heard (revelation), he dwells with the believers (through his well-preserved teachings). Such teachings will remain forever because he was the last messenger of God, the only Universal Messenger to unite the whole of humanity under God and on the path of PRESERVED truth. He told of many things to come which "came to pass" in the minutest detail meeting, the criterion given by Moses to distinguish between the true prophet and the false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:22). He did reprove the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgement (John 16:8-11).



WAS THE SHIFT OF
RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP
PROPHESIED?
Following the rejection of the last Israelite prophet, Jesus, it was about time that God's promise to make Ishmael a great nation be fulfilled (Genesis 21:13, 18).

In Matthew 21:19-21, Jesus spoke of the fruitless fig tree (A Biblical symbol of prophetic heritage) to be cleared after being given a last chance of three years (the duration of Jesus' ministry) to give fruit. In a later verse in the same chapter, Jesus said: "Therefore, say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof" (Matthew 21:43). That nation of Ishmael's descendants (the rejected stone in Matthew 21:42) which was victorious against all super-powers of its time as PROPHESIED by Jesus: "And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder" (Matthew 21:44).


OUT OF
CONTEXT COINCIDENCE?
Is it possible that the numerous prophecies cited here are all individually and combined out of context misinterpretations? Is the opposite true, that such infrequently studied verses fit together consistently and clearly point to the advent of the man who changed the course of human history, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Is it reasonable to conclude that all these prophecies, appearing in different books of the Bible and spoken by various prophets at different times were all coincidence? If this is so here is another strange "coincidence"!

One of the signs of the prophet to come from Paran (Mecca) is that he will come with "ten thousands of saints" (Deuteronomy 33:2 KJV). That was the number of faithful who accompanied Prophet Muhammad to Paran (Mecca) in his victorious, bloodless return to his birthplace to destroy the remaining symbols of idolatry in the Ka'bah.

Says God as quoted by Moses:
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:19)

[Sledgehammer]

Well the Bible state that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one. this would mean Mohammad was not man .......also wasn'y Jesus speaking to the Jews during his ministry and it was later the Gentiles that was bleesed and brought into the kingdom?

[Saturday Fever]

The true Gospels did not state anything about a "trinity." In fact, with some very simple mistranslations (I won't allege they were intentional, but I will say evidence says they were) you can take the term christians call the "Holy Spirit" and make it more accurately mean "True Spirit" as was addressed in that article. That article addresses every other question you asked.

[Saturday Fever]

You have to realize that the bible as it exists today is a lot of things pieced together. Some may be original, most are not. The bible as it exists today was created to benefit the church, not to effectively pass on the words of God. Again the article addresses much of the issues.

[Sledgehammer]

so what is the fate of Jews and Christians according to the Qurran?

[Saturday Fever]

The Hellfire. Many muslims will find themselves in the Hellfire as well.

[Sledgehammer]

How long have you been muslim? did you study any other faiths?

[millertime]

Originally posted by Saturday Fever
The Hellfire. Many muslims will find themselves in the Hellfire as well.

Believe or be dammed!!! Once the physical body dies would you still fear physical pain? Does the soul feel fire? Physical threats only threaten the physical. The mind/soul are free of your motral threats.

[Saturday Fever]

I have been muslim for about 6 weeks. I don't study any other religions as much as I just try to stay familiar with them.

[gino]

How about this. All religion is bullsh!t. People are killing eachother over a belief of something which does not exist. Religion only exists because as humans we are capable of believing in such a thing as a supreme being. We are the only creatures on this planet capable of worshiping a supreme being, so of course, we do...fanatically for some, I might add. Could the one major factor that's tearing this world apart be the biggest hoax in history?

*opens can...runs*

[MrWebb78]

i think myself, gino, and millertime need to go bowling and have a beer.

[Gyno Rhino]

I think we all need to relax, have a beer, enjoy a BBQ pork sandwich, and eat cheese before 2:00 P.M. on Tuesdays during the full moon.

[EdgarMex]

Doesit have to be Tuesdays? I'm in if we can make it Saturday

[Alex.V]

Originally posted by Saturday Fever
I have been muslim for about 6 weeks.

That made me giggle a bit.

I don't know why.

Gino, say that louder.

[chris mason]

Originally posted by gino
How about this. All religion is bullsh!t. People are killing eachother over a belief of something which does not exist. Religion only exists because as humans we are capable of believing in such a thing as a supreme being. We are the only creatures on this planet capable of worshiping a supreme being, so of course, we do...fanatically for some, I might add. Could the one major factor that's tearing this world apart be the biggest hoax in history?

*opens can...runs*

That is a matter of opinion.

Of course, if you are wrong, the repurcussions could be rather distasteful...

This much I can say with a high degree of certainty, at some point in your life, you will feel the need for religion and God, and you will sing a different tune. That could be soon, it could be years and years from now, but the day will come in all liklihood.

One more question, if there is no supreme being, then what is your motivation for moral behavior? Why not just fulfill all of your desires? Why not kill people and take their money? If you knew you could kill someone, get away with it, and profit millions, would you? If not, why? There is no one to judge you by your own opinion, so why not?