If your serious about training and drink alcohol

[Severed Ties]

You should check out this thread in the general health forum.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...threadid=30124


ST

[Shocker]

i was just reading about this. It's a real problem for me.
http://www.naturalstrength.com/nutri...?ArticleID=665

[bigkevin20]

Well I went form drinking when ever I wnat to only on friday and saterdays. Now I havent drank at all in the last 3 weeks and my progress is faster than ususal. Its all with moderation, I love drinking though and have no problem putting down a half case. But now its like if I drink I am not going to get my gains fast enuff. Its like a guilt I have trained my self to have. If you can make this change, at least on the weekends like I originally did. Then take your moderatoin from there you should se added improvements.

[ElPietro]

I'm confused by your statement of .03-.035 as thoroughly intoxicated, when you are allowed to drive at .08 and it's not even close to being thorougly intoxicated?

Also, we can't take this as factual since it's only been rats they've tested on right? If we used all tests on rats as directly related to humans, we'd all be having our livers removed about now wouldn't we?

Also, much of the testing was on chronic alcohol consumption, so not sure how applicable it is...but interesting nevertheless. If I misunderstood please correct me.

[Severed Ties]

Sorry for my delayed response I didn't notice this thread got stuck up here and rather than disapearing into the abyss of archieves.

My numbers would make more sense had I included the scale, just move the decimel place over one to see the more conventional units, I did the conversion quick so the table I used measured in different units which I didn't notice since I was rushing.

You are correct that we cannot always extrapolate data from a rat study and assume it is directly applicable to humans. However based on the similar observation seen with human alcoholics the model does seem to hold true.

In a way alcohols effect on protein synthesis makes sense as alcohol is a toxin. When you measuse protein synthesis with other toxins such as NSAID (tylenol, etc.) you have the same observation....a decrease in protein synthesis.

The chronic alcohol consumption as I pointed out is not directly applicable so don't get too hung up on it.I included it rather to make the interesting case that alcohols actions are predominantly seen in type II muscle fibers. So this leads me too wonder if their would be some kind of signifigant measureable effect in indiviudal who engage in heavy drinking 1 or 2 times per week but do this over an extended period of time like say a year...or college.


ST

[chris mason]

I think the suggestion that drinking will impair one's training and using that study to back it up is misleading.

If the study is referencing chronic alcoholism, or the ingestion of large quantities of alcohol on a chronic basis, there is a big difference between that and recreational use, or occasional binging. You just can't compare the two.

If you looked at the top 10% of athletes in all sports, I am willing to bet that 80% or more of them consume alocohol with some frequency. That is evidence enough to me that moderate consumption is not a hinderence to one's training.

[Belial]

What chris said. Having a few a week is not equal to keeping chronically elevated levels of ethanol in the system. I mean, in one of the studies:

"Rats were pair-fed either a nutritionally complete liquid diet containing 36% of total calories as ethanol or isovolumetric amounts of the same diet in which ethanol was substituted by isocaloric glucose."

Yeah. If I have 231ml of pure alcohol a day, I would say it might inhibit my gains slightly.

[restless]

It is amazing how any kind of research can be desmissed at one's convinience, seriously.

[Belial]

It's amazing how any kind of research can be misinterpreted. The research is simply not applicable in practical terms to anybody here. Look at the extreme conditions used in the studies, and then look at the average usage of alcohol by any of the drinkers here.

Not applicable. Period. The research simply tells us the effects of saturating the system with ethanol. It does nothing to tell us the effects of low to moderate usage.

The first study is the only one where the dosing accurately represents the average night out. If my math is correct, it's equivalent to 6-7 drinks (for a guy my size).. however, the alcohol was given via intraperitoneal injection, not exactly the same rate of ethanol entry into the system as having some drinks after dinner. Still, regardless, the conclusion is that, for the day after the drinking, you won't be building as much muscle as otherwise.

OH NOES!

[Budiak]

Study: The effects of alcohol on physical and mental ability

Conditions:Rat X is a strong healthy rat with a strong cardiovascular system.
Rat Y, the control rat, is a strong healthy rat with a strong cardiovascular system.

We forcefed Rat X half his bodyweight in pure alcohol a day, and the rest of his diet was a mixture of pork rinds and stale bar pretzels in order to mimic a rat's normal diet.


Rat Y was fed a mixture of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates mixed with oral anabolics winstrol and anavar in an attempt to mimic a rat's natural diet.

We noted that the rat was unwilling to consume the alcohol, and consistently vomited up the liquid. We took great pleasure in strapping the rat to a canoe paddle by his little paws while we rubbed his body in the vomit. The practice was quite time consuming but those involved in the scientifically viable methods insisted on their methods of waste reduction.

After a month,while Rat Y was in perfect health and was both stronger and more energetic, rat X had a gut, wouldnt run on the wheel anymore, and seemed to take a liking to popular reality tv shows.

Conclusion: Drinking affects your training and makes you an idiot.

End of Study.

I dont like studies done on rats with ridiculous amounts of substances injected or forcefed. Like the aspartame and nutrasweet cancer claims. Total bull****.


*shrugs


*drinks two shots of Jack




*watches 'Joe Millionaire'

[PowerManDL]

Didn't I already say all this in the original thread?

[restless]

Originally posted by Belial
Still, regardless, the conclusion is that, for the day after the drinking, you won't be building as much muscle as otherwise.

OH NOES!

AH! Ok then. Last time we had this discussion alcohol was even passed as some kind of muscle building wonder drug, after all Arnold and so many professional athletes drink a lot, etc, etc....

[Berserker]

Originally posted by restless


AH! Ok then. Last time we had this discussion alcohol was even passed as some kind of muscle building wonder drug, after all Arnold and so many professional athletes drink a lot, etc, etc....

I don't think anyone is claiming alcohol builds muscle. I think the point many are making is is not as much a muscle destroyer as you folks in the temperance movement claim.

[restless]

Will, we all agree that it will somewhat hinder your gains right?

[Belial]

Originally posted by PowerManDL
Didn't I already say all this in the original thread?

Did anybody here read it?

OBVIOUSLY NOT.

*crosses arms*

[Severed Ties]

Originally posted by chris mason
I think the suggestion that drinking will impair one's training and using that study to back it up is misleading.

If the study is referencing chronic alcoholism, or the ingestion of large quantities of alcohol on a chronic basis, there is a big difference between that and recreational use, or occasional binging. You just can't compare the two.

If you looked at the top 10% of athletes in all sports, I am willing to bet that 80% or more of them consume alocohol with some frequency. That is evidence enough to me that moderate consumption is not a hinderence to one's training.

So supporting your argument by providing evidence is misleading??? Dam in that case I'll just make stuff up....

Chris I don't know if you looked at the post specifically but I wanted to draw attention to the first study which shows a dramatic decrease in protein synthesis with intoxicating levels of alcohol. This was within a single 24 hour period.

I found some of the studies on chronic consumption interesting so I included them in the thread for reasons I have stated twice, yet some people insist on focusing on them.

You also can't make the argument about the top 10% of athletes in all sports who consume alcohol because you have factors which don't apply to the majority of people here. First is world class genetics and second is drug use.

I wouldn't worry about how alcohol effects your protein balance if your pumping perfomance enhancing drugs into your system. As well I wouldn't worry if you enjoy a few drinks a week (2-3). However I still think the first study provided strong evidence that binge drinking is not in your best interest.

Anyway the studies are their so people can read them and draw their own conclusions. Much like the Easter bunny and Santa Clause everyone if free to believe whatever they like.

ST

[Severed Ties]

Originally posted by Belial
It's amazing how any kind of research can be misinterpreted. The research is simply not applicable in practical terms to anybody here. Look at the extreme conditions used in the studies, and then look at the average usage of alcohol by any of the drinkers here.

Not applicable. Period. The research simply tells us the effects of saturating the system with ethanol. It does nothing to tell us the effects of low to moderate usage.

The first study is the only one where the dosing accurately represents the average night out. If my math is correct, it's equivalent to 6-7 drinks (for a guy my size).. however, the alcohol was given via intraperitoneal injection, not exactly the same rate of ethanol entry into the system as having some drinks after dinner. Still, regardless, the conclusion is that, for the day after the drinking, you won't be building as much muscle as otherwise.

OH NOES!

I don't see how anything was misinterperted, the chronic use studies were not intended to apply to people here but rather show alcohols effect in type II fibers. As well as the other question I posed. If 30 days of chronic alcohol exposure cause muscle wasting what could be the effect of 90 days of alcohol exposure spread over a year??? This is a completely open ended question which was intended for discussion rather than being labeled inapplicabe.

Your last statment supports my argument so I fail to see the misinterpertation again. Yes the rats were infused with alcohol by injection so blood alcohol levels will climb much quicker. However blood alcohol levels will climb just as high from oral administration. Due to the time factor it will take 1-3 drinks more to achieve the same level but the concentration will reach the same regardless.

ST

[MrWebb78]

i personally just get ****ed up maybe once a month, then have a few drinks every other weekend. i hate to try and get scientific about it all, not like im going to be tearing up a mr olympia stage anytime soon

[Majestic]

If 30 days of chronic alcohol exposure cause muscle wasting what could be the effect of 90 days of alcohol exposure spread over a year???

Not comparable......you need consecutive days, even consecutive weeks.

Nonetheless, 90 days of extreme alcohol exposure in a year isn't conducive to optimal bodybuilding. Point taken.

[rippedfool]

i know if i drink and try to work out the next day i get nauses and i feel drained out like i cant lift as much. it might just be a hangover but even if i only have like 6 or 7 beers i cant lift as much the next day.

[Berserker]

Well you need more practice.

[rippedfool]

with drinkin beer or lifting weights

[Berserker]

Probably drinking beer, but I don't know which for sure.

[rippedfool]

i need more help with weight lifting then i do with drinkin, thats why i like this website. i aint joined to why wanna be drunk.com which wouldnt be a bad idea you could put drinkin games and how top make drinks on it.

[The_Brick]

rippedfool: are you drunk now?