Overtraining: All Mental?

[PowerManDL]

The term "overtraining" comes up a lot here when discussing higher volume training routines.

But, is there really such a thing? At least in the context of short-term programs?

I've been reading a very interesting discussion on another mailing list, which has pointed out the incredible hardships that professional athletes can undergo-- but before everyone starts screaming "steroids," I want to note the more brutal training undergone by those in the military.

Beyond basic training, the elite teams (Navy SEALS, Special Forces, Force Recon, etc) are forced to undergo incredibly brutal training regimens, and come out all the better for it.

Olympic lifters, including those I personally know are clean, can squat up to 6 times a week with no adverse effects while training the other lifts.

I myself have taken a similar approach, working most major muscle groups twice a week, and have yet to see any drop in performance or motivation.

The human body is amazing in its ability to adapt to stress, even with its limits. Short-term overreaching, what many in the fitness industry call "overtraining" is actually a temporary condition that can be reversed with a week of lowered volume. So the question is, how much of what we call "overtraining" is actual, honest to God General Adaptive Syndrome, and how much is in our heads?

[Cackerot69]

There's a difference between how much exercise an individual can "tolerate" and what is optimal, foo.

[PowerManDL]

Is there? Show me proof.

[Frankster]

I also beleive we can tolerate alot of things. alot of volume too.... it is just not optimal for bodybuilding. How can you compare what we can tolerate to what is optimal.. they are two completelly different things.

[breeze]

Originally posted by Frankster
I also beleive we can tolerate alot of things. alot of volume too.... it is just not optimal for bodybuilding. How can you compare what we can tolerate to what is optimal.. they are two completelly different things.

Do we know what is optimal? Can we ever know? Until that is answered you can't really refute what PowerMan stated.

[Frankster]

well.. yes i can because its my opinion.. we don't know what is optimal.. that is different for everybody.. however... we can surelly tolerate to train everybodyparts everyday of the week for two hours-two hours and a half.. I've done it when i was a bigginner , jsut as lot of people have... and anybody who says that is optimal for a natural bodybuilder, doesn't know what he is talking about.

[Cackerot69]

You can't "prove" anything. In reality, even gravity is not "proven". Sure, we have a a huge amount of evidence that it works, but it is not "proven" because it has not been tested in every single way possible. Kinda like dgreenhill saying whatever he was saying isn't "proven" because not everyone has tried it. Going back to the gravity thing, if we were to drop something just one time and it didn't fall to the ground, we have disproven the current model of gravity, in summary it's impossible to "prove" something, only disprove.

OK, now that I got some philosophical garbage outta the way, the reason is quite simple in that if you do more than is absolutely necessary to cause adaptation then you are "overtraining". You are unnecessarily depleting intra-muscular reserves, stressing the nervous system, depleting ATP, etc etc...All of this would serve to add extra recovery time without benefits, hence you couldn't stimulate further adaptation as often as if you didn't do that extra set or whatever.

If you want studies to "prove" it, although I could find them I won;'t bother, because studies don't really mean much when it's all said and done.

Foo.

[breeze]

Now now Frankster calm down. Seeing that you are not sure how many sets are optimal then you can't say for sure that 25 sets per week is not optimal. I am not say that I disagree with you, but your statments are vague.

[Frankster]

I AM CALM !!! hehe.. j/k

no ok.. you're right .. I thought I wasn't being vague.. but..

You're right.. I don't know if 25 sets is optimal.. but i could say that we could tolerate 25 sets per day, per body part everyday of the week.. but that is not optimal for bodybuilding.. getting what i mean now ? catching my breeze, breeze?

[Paul Stagg]

The term "overtraining" comes up a lot here when discussing higher volume training routines.

** Yes, it does.. and I think sometimes it is erroneous, or overtraining is used to mean a couple of different things.

But, is there really such a thing? At least in the context of short-term programs?

** Yes, but it would be uncommon on a short term routine.

I've been reading a very interesting discussion on another mailing list, which has pointed out the incredible hardships that professional athletes can undergo-- but before everyone starts screaming "steroids," I want to note the more brutal training undergone by those in the military.

** OK.

Beyond basic training, the elite teams (Navy SEALS, Special Forces, Force Recon, etc) are forced to undergo incredibly brutal training regimens, and come out all the better for it.

** Depends on how you define better, how you define brutal... I'm not familiar with military training programs, but I can make a fairly educated deduction based on the folks I've met who are in or were in the military... they are not focusing on adding muscle. They are focused on stamina and a fairly general level of fitness/strength, training predominately with bodyweight. Certainly *I* would not want to go thru basic training - but they are training for a different result than you or I.

Olympic lifters, including those I personally know are clean, can squat up to 6 times a week with no adverse effects while training the other lifts.

** Absolutely. they train far below thier capability for the most part.

I myself have taken a similar approach, working most major muscle groups twice a week, and have yet to see any drop in performance or motivation.

** Great.

The human body is amazing in its ability to adapt to stress, even with its limits. Short-term overreaching, what many in the fitness industry call "overtraining" is actually a temporary condition that can be reversed with a week of lowered volume.

** I agree.

So the question is, how much of what we call "overtraining" is actual, honest to God General Adaptive Syndrome, and how much is in our heads?

** Depends on who you are talking to. In general, overtrainig is used to mean two things. One is commonly applied to routines when the intent is to say 'that is far more work than you need, and is probably more than what is optimal.'

The second is what I would call chronic overtraining, where there are definate physical symptoms, such as sleep disorders, pain, reversal of progress, headaches, loss of appetite, etc.. This type of overtraining is very real...

What you need to keep in mind is that there are lots of factors that go into overtraining. diet, rest, volume, frequency, intensity, experience, age, etc... all play a role.

Lets compare you and I for a second... You are what? 20? I'm 31.

You are 165 pounds with a couple of years experience... I'm 215 with 8 years of lifting.

I (of late) have a fairly high stress job, and don't always get a full 8 hours sleep a night.

Lets say you always get 8-9 hours sleep a night.

Lets say you and I are training for similar goals, to peak for a PL meet.

So our training is sub failure, high set count, low reps, etc.

Would you be able to withstand more training stimulus (volume/frequency) than I? You bet. You'll make better gains using a bit more work, I'll make better gains using less.

Now, lets add Chris Mason into the mix... he's about my age (a little older?), and has more than a decade of lifting under his belt... and he trains to get bigger.. so his training is to failure (more intense than ours).

Can he train with the same volume or frequency as I? Nope. He'll make better progress limiting his work.

[breeze]

Originally posted by Cackerot69
You can't "prove" anything. In reality, even gravity is not "proven". blah blah blah blah blah.

You still haven't answer the question put forth. Oh with that comment about gravity, I hope to god, you are not aspiring to be an engineer or a scientist. You would set the U.S.A. back a 100 years technologically. And try not to reference Dgreenhill he is banned and can't be here to defend himself.

*pictures Cacerot as a NASA aeronautical engineer telling Lockeed Martin " We don't need no stinking rocket boosters. Gravity doesn't exit. By the force of our positive thinking we can conjure all of our spaceships into outer space." Shudders at the image*

[Maki Riddington]

I have found that "overtraining may indeed be somewhat a "mind over matter" problem.

Ex: I took up boxing several years ago. I trained 3-4 x's a week for roughly 2 hours a day. The training alone was very difficult. Now on top of this I managed to drag my behind into the gym for a good solid 60 mins of high volume training ( 4 sets of 3-4 different exercises per muscle group) 3-4 x's a week. I ate roughly 2400 cals a day and weighed 170 pounds. I saw increases in strength even during this time period and around a 2-3 pound increase in weight

Under most circumstances people would lable this grossly overtraining. I slept roughly 7-8 hours a day btw.

Go figure?

[Cackerot69]

Breeze, don't be an idiot.

I never said gravity doesn't exist, but it is not "proven" because it hasn't been tested in every possible way in every possible circumstance.

[Tryska]

*lol*

hell in that case...you don't exist Cack.....perhaps none of us do....

ok i digressed.....

i think paul pretty much summed it up.....depends on what type of overtraining you mean (to complete exhaustion/fatigue), and also what your current goals are.

and yes there are plenty of people who use "overtraining" as an excuse to not make it to the gym too.

[Cackerot69]

We all exist, but going back to Paul's mortality example, since we haven't died yet it's not "proven" that we're mortal.

OK, I'm stopping now, lol.

[PowerManDL]

Good points, everyone--

My whole reason for bringing this up was to get the information out there; and Paul, I do agree with you.

You and I are training for different goals than most here. Though I'm not exclusively training for PL right now, I am using the lifts and techniques, along with OL training and a generalized approach to strength as a whole.

Of course, this goes back to the original question-- what *is* optimal for mass? Is it focusing exclusively on mass with no other techniques? Or is it incorporating other techniques along with the mass training that can aid in improving mass?

My feelings are that you should incorporate other techniques-- when I'm done with this current strength/power phase, I think I'll be a lot better off when I try to add mass, because I've increased my strength, power, and anaerobic capabilities. All of which will allow me to handle more weight and more total workload, which equates to better potential for max growth.

In other words, by using periods of intentionally overreaching, I've increased my capabilities during other types of training later on.

So, who's to say that some of what has been commonly called overtraining, in terms of doing more than is "optimal," can't be helpful on occasion? Maybe pushing through those sluggish periods will aid more than we think its hurting.

[Paul Stagg]

What is optimal for mass varies by individual.

there are som egeneral guidelines, rep ranges and the like, that we've all discussed before.

"My feelings are that you should incorporate other techniques-- when I'm done with this current strength/power phase, I think I'll be a lot better off when I try to add mass, because I've increased my strength, power, and anaerobic capabilities. All of which will allow me to handle more weight and more total workload, which equates to better potential for max growth."

**Absolutely.


"In other words, by using periods of intentionally overreaching, I've increased my capabilities during other types of training later on."

** Absolutely.

"So, who's to say that some of what has been commonly called overtraining, in terms of doing more than is "optimal," can't be helpful on occasion? Maybe pushing through those sluggish periods will aid more than we think its hurting."

** Depends on the context, and all of the variables we've discussed previously. I think someoen can certainlybenefit for increasing volume and keep ing intensity constant for a short period of time... and there are certainly benefits to cycling intensity and volume.

[Bigmofo]

Going totally off topic, gravity can be proven, gravitation is a universal constant, with clasical mechanics its posible to find the magnitude of this constant and establish a equation, Newton found this. Einstein later defined gravity like a distortion in space time caused by big masses, Einstein experimentally proved this during a eclipse. It is possible to prove that space -time becomes curved via Riemann's theory of curved manifolds--bla bla bla..

[W8_4_Me]

Overtraining is a catch-all phrase that people use to sum up their short-comings in the gym.

"I can't do another rep or set! I'm OVERTRAINING!" What he/she means is, "I'm TIRED and I don't WANT to do another rep/set!"

In all the years I have been lifting weights, I cannot say that I have ever met someone who has actually suffered a great deal from overtraining.

I have, however, met a bunch of wannabe's who use that phrase to explain away their lack of success with weights.

[Tryska]

*raises hand again*

i've actually overtrained before, with pretty much the same symptoms that Paul mentioned up above. Just got off my 2 weeks rest as a matter of fact..*lol*

[W8_4_Me]

Well, to clarify somewhat further -

I am SURE it happens to some, but not very many.

Obese people OFTEN blame things like glandular disorders and such, but reality... I think I read somewhere that it's like 2% of obese people are actually obese because of something truly medical. Most are obese because they eat too much and exercise too little!

Back in the 80's, people got "burned out". I mean it was an epidemic. "I'm burned out." "I heard she got burned out." What they really meant was, "I have had it up to my ears and I need an excuse to change my life."

IMO, if everyone overtrained who CLAIMED to be overtraining, we would all look like Arnold. I seldom see anyone in that category on a day to day basis in the everyday world.

Does that make any sense?

[Avatar]

Originally posted by W8_4_Me

In all the years I have been lifting weights, I cannot say that I have ever met someone who has actually suffered a great deal from overtraining.

I see people all the time who are overtraining and just don't know it.

[Tryska]

actually....considering some of the studies i'm reading now, a glandular disorder might not be far off the mark for some....something like 20% of the population, according to some british studies..but that's neither here nor there...I understand what you mean though...people use cop-outs to take accountability off of themselves.....


I personally was given orders to stay the hell out of the gym til my joints stopped hurting..*lol*

[Paul Stagg]

I've overtrained.

Couldn't sleep, had NO motivation to train, got sick...

It was due to a combination of too much training volume for too long, poor diet habits, and stress.

I was actually regressing... ended up taking over a month off.

[W8_4_Me]

Paul-

Couldn't sleep, had NO motivation to train, got sick...

I've had those same symptoms! It was later determined to be caused by my 3 daughters!

LOL!

Like I said, I'm sure it happens, but not to the extreme that we here about it. When I go to the gym, I see a handful of people that actually fit the true "look-at-that-big-SOB" category. Most people I see are the novice and recreational lifters. (like cackerot ) They don't overtrain. They just don't know how to get where they want to be.