Respect for doctors rant

[Reinier]

I have made the observation, and friends and family of mine with me, that the more stupid people are, the more they will criticise the doctors that treated them.

Becoming a doctor, let alone a medical specialist, is preserved for those who are not only of above average intelligence, but also of above average motivation and drive. Medical school has the toughest selection of all university educations and is known as the hardest study to complete. It is also the longest

Ironically its always those who never got further than primary or junior high who are keen to criticise them and make clear they knew better, but they just wouldn`t listen.

Medical errors occur. The human body is infinitely complex and very sensitive and medical practise is a continuous process. Its no more than logical doctors make mistakes. My father was under intense treatment for years in a row after a severe motorcycle crash. Mistakes have been made, some irrelevant, some painful.
However looking at the whole picture, it is amazing what they have been able to do. Nobody had foreseen his amazing recovery. The batting average in this industry is, IMO, high enough. It would be unreasonable to demand a much higher one.

Gyms, particularly hardcore gyms, being a perfect environment to observe the intellectually challenged, I often overhear onesided ignorant conversations in which everybody comes to the conclusion doctors are total bunglers. These same people I overheard discussing another time how cancer patients have black blood cells...

Of course its going to seem like Dr is just messing with your body wild.... your TOO DAMN DUMB for him to explain to you what he is doing. get over it.

My mother is a nurse and has the same experience and opinion.
There are a lot of doctors in my family and they too experience most criticism from the dumbest people.

Everybody lay off and respect the doc`s!

[Alex.V]

Interesting rant. I'll just address it from the perspective of somebody who often disagrees with the AMA and most GP recommendations when it comes to things discussed on this site.

There is nothing magical about doctors. And they will often be the first to admit (Though NEVER to their patients) that they are, in fact, ignorant about a great many aspects of medicine. They simply have to know too much, they very ofter simply regurgitate what their references and professors say.

For a quick example: How much has the average doctor read on ephedrine? A few paragraphs. I guarantee that is the norm. The average doctor does not think it worthwhile to read more. So why take his advice on it? How much has the average doctor read on nutrition? A few texts. He or she knows the food pyramid, the essentials of vitamins and minerals, etc. The doctor knows exactly how food is processed, but honestly has little time to waste on different kinds of diets and other specifics. That's not a GP's specialty.

So no, very often doctors ad-lib. I know plenty of them. And there's no reason to respect them simply because they have a degree. The more you learn, the more you forget, and the more gaps exist in your knowledge. Never, EVER simply accept what somebody, anybody, says, without first running it by your own filter. If you don't know enough to weigh the opinion, then do some f*cking research before you put your health/life/future in the hands of someone else.

[Manveet]

Originally posted by Belial
Interesting rant. I'll just address it from the perspective of somebody who often disagrees with the AMA and most GP recommendations when it comes to things discussed on this site.

There is nothing magical about doctors. And they will often be the first to admit (Though NEVER to their patients) that they are, in fact, ignorant about a great many aspects of medicine. They simply have to know too much, they very ofter simply regurgitate what their references and professors say.

For a quick example: How much has the average doctor read on ephedrine? A few paragraphs. I guarantee that is the norm. The average doctor does not think it worthwhile to read more. So why take his advice on it? How much has the average doctor read on nutrition? A few texts. He or she knows the food pyramid, the essentials of vitamins and minerals, etc. The doctor knows exactly how food is processed, but honestly has little time to waste on different kinds of diets and other specifics. That's not a GP's specialty.

So no, very often doctors ad-lib. I know plenty of them. And there's no reason to respect them simply because they have a degree. The more you learn, the more you forget, and the more gaps exist in your knowledge. Never, EVER simply accept what somebody, anybody, says, without first running it by your own filter. If you don't know enough to weigh the opinion, then do some f*cking research before you put your health/life/future in the hands of someone else.

My thoughts exactly.

[Frankster]

:withstupi

[Reinier]

I think ephedrine is a bad example. Thats really specific and relatively irrelevant to most doctors practise... It means nothing if you are right in disagreeing with your GP about ephedra use... thats just totally irrelevant to him.

Of course they are human and they dont know all and they forget stuff. It just pisses me off when people make it sound like doctors in general dont know what the hell they are talking about.

Its not people who inform themselves and disagree that i dislike. Its those that victimise themselves of their doc without even knowing the difference between bone and muscle.

[Reinier]

I mean respect them as you are supposed to respect anyone.
Not in the pedestal way.

The other day I heard a halfway illiterate person rant about how stupid his dermatologist is. i mean get the hell out of here

[ectx]

Ditto on what Alex said. ...but also...

I respect doctors tremendously, but I don't take their word all the time. It's impossible to know about everything. There's nothing wrong with doubting your doc. The best thing to do is ask questions. So he gets annoyed sometimes...hey you're paying him...it's your body and your duty to be informed. I think the problem comes from us having unreal expectations for MD's. They're shown how to diagnose, not how to think. Interestingly both med students and MD's alike are intimidated by us grad students in seminars, perhaps because our knowledge is so specialized and theirs is so broad. Still, in a research environment an MD is invaluable. They help you see the whole picture. Our fault is in expecting them to pick up the small details.

[Reinier]

I`m mainly talking about people with no medical knowledge, thinking they know better than an MD in the MDs damn specific area...

I`m just saying the batting average of the medical profession is acceptable, and people should stop whining

[ElPietro]

I only see one person whining here.

[SquareHead]

I know what you are saying Reinier.

[Delphi]

My favorite is this:

Uncle Bob waits until his colon is completely obstructed from colon cancer before he goes to the doctor. He requires emergency surgery, where mets to the liver are found. He gets a colostomy. He dies within a month. His relatives vow to never get a colonoscopy or have surgery because "The doctors operated on Uncle Bob for a cancer. They let air hit the tumor and it spread all over his stomach."

[Alex.V]

Originally posted by ectx

I respect doctors tremendously, but I don't take their word all the time. It's impossible to know about everything. There's nothing wrong with doubting your doc. The best thing to do is ask questions. So he gets annoyed sometimes...hey you're paying him...it's your body and your duty to be informed. I think the problem comes from us having unreal expectations for MD's. They're shown how to diagnose, not how to think. Interestingly both med students and MD's alike are intimidated by us grad students in seminars, perhaps because our knowledge is so specialized and theirs is so broad. Still, in a research environment an MD is invaluable. They help you see the whole picture. Our fault is in expecting them to pick up the small details.

Exactly. No disrespect is intended at all, especially not by questioning. Yes, almost any professional may get annoyed when a complete novice begins to question, but if the novice is a client, so to speak, it becomes the professional's obligation.

I agree with you, Reinier, that people often attack doctors with zero factual reason to do so whatsoever. However, there is a difference between joe shmoe disagreeing with a doctor because "them damn butchers killed me pappi", and a moderately informed person ensuring that accurate diagnosis/treatment takes two.

[Budiak]

Budiak: Well, I take ephedra.

Doctor: Ephedra BAD!

Budiak: Well in the tomes of studies I've read, and from personal experience, it seems to be harmless if used correctly.

Doctor: Ephedra BAD!

Budiak: Will my insurance cover this?

Doctor: Ephedra BAD!

Budiak: That's a fake diploma isnt it?

Doctor: It actually says I'm a reverend! It only cost 12 bucks!

[Reinier]

no need to discuss ephedra with doc.
you dont ask your doc if you can scratch your butt right?
They actually use ephedra on the IV to bring people back from anesthesia. even heart patients. so what are they whining about.

[Allie]

I honestly can say I respect some doctors, I have seen a few in my day that don't listen, jump into some random treatments, and others (my dermatoligst comes to mind) who I really think are a GREAT doctor, he listens, he is always completly honest with me, about treatments as far as what my insurance covers, scars, medication, etc. I think a lot of it comes down to a persons intelligence and how they expect to be treated as a patient from proir experience.

I also think it's important for doctors to be open minded, an example is the last time I went to the Dr, we discussed how much stress effects adolecents especially and the vast problems that stress can induce. I think it comes down to have a Dr your comfortable. I can say my current provider is very open minded and we really discuss my medical issues and she always listens to my concern and explains why options are good or bad and why, instead of just concluding what is best in her mind. She makes sure her patients are comfortable

[GIS]

Originally posted by Belial

There is nothing magical about doctors.

Ding, ding. Alex is correct with that statement. Doctors are nothing more than mechanics of the body. SO many doctors out there are bone heads and the medical community recognizes that. They're not all ultra intellegent superhumans nor are they immune to being incorrect.

I have respect for doctors, but how many times have you heard somebody go to the doctor and be told something about their condition before going to another doctor and getting a completely different second opinion.

To pass medical school you must be intellegent, but most concentrations require little more than an outstanding memory and the ability to retain gobs of information.

A friend told me about his best buddy who recently died after having a horrible wreck in his professional dragster. After the wreck he was messed up and in a coma, but the first doctor said he just had some vertibrea damage but would survive. The second doctor came in and said 'yeah right, this guy is toast'. His spinal cord was complete severed and there was no way he would survive so they pulled the plug.

If something so obvious could be overlooked by some irresponsible goober doctor like that, how many incorrect statements and diagnoses do you think occure? A TON. The stories of large metal spreading tools being sewed up inside a patients abdomen during surgery is nothing uncommon.

Now, I wont say that without saying there are many good doctors and none of them can possibly be perfect because, well, they're human. Besides, there are so many thigns still unknown about the body it would be impossible to know how to treat everything. Doctors are great and I praise those in med school for dedicating their lives to helping people and advancing medicine, but that doesn't mean there is a large percentage that arn't as knowledable as society makes them out as being.

[Reinier]

There are always a lot of stories on about people who were conscious during intensive surgery.

There was a guy on a talk show here who was conscious all through his appendix removal and felt the doc pull out his intestines and heard the radio playing and everything...

He was the 1 person in 10.000 or more that is immune to some of the anesthesia drugs. well poop happens! cant do nothing about that. comes with the territory man. but of course on tv they made it sound like the medical industry was incompetent etc etc

[Mystic Eric]

The fact of the matter is that to become a doctor, one has to be intelligent. Med school is reservered for the cream of the crop students. Sciences are hard enough, but these people get A's in sciences in university (which is extremely hard to do) and then after that, Med schools pick out the best out of those. Then there's the whole thing about PASSING med school which I'm guessing is not an easy feat. Then after, the docs that come out of school have to do a few years of intership before starting up on their own so these people aren't "stupid" by any means.

That's not to say that doctors know EVERYTHING about the body. Like Belial said, there's just too much to know about the body. That coupled with the fact that doctors are human and can make mistakes means that they're not perfect.

One thing that can make a doctor really crappy is if he/she has been a doc for a while but doesn't keep up with new science. I'm not exactly sure if Doc's have to read up on stuff but as science and new discoveries about the body are always advancing, a doc that doesn't keep up is not a good doc.

Also, I'm sure there are those that have been around for a while and get lazy and think they know everything. Those suck as well.

[Reinier]

I think its compulsory to keep reading up... but of course some are more spirited in that than others

[GIS]

Originally posted by Reinier

He was the 1 person in 10.000 or more that is immune to some of the anesthesia drugs. well poop happens! cant do nothing about that. comes with the territory man. but of course on tv they made it sound like the medical industry was incompetent etc etc

That is very different than some bone head doctor telling a dieing man's family that he should be able to recover when his spinal cord was clearly severed. It's also different from irresponsible malpractice such as leaving surgery tools withing the abdominal cavity like spreaders, scalpals, etc before sewing the person back up with them inside.

Yes doctors must be smart and I go to the University of Washington which has one of if not the best med school in the nation. Despite this it's amazing how many complete IDIOTS are med students! It's a small minority, but they're out there. You could drop some of them off a few states over and they couldn't find their own ways back home. Being a good doctor takes a hell of a lot more than book smarts. One must be an excellent communicator and in a way psychologist to communicate with patients and their families, not to mention other medical professionals.

Another thing to take into consideration is what TYPE of doctor. Surgeons, pediatritions, and optomitrists are all 'doctors' but have different levels of requirements.

My rants arn't with doctors... I'm merely pointing out that they should be respected but not worshiped like society likes to do.

[Praetorian]

its very easy to stand on the sideline and bitch about doctors. do you guys really have an idea how much it takes to become a doctor? i know, i tried and i failed. it requires an average++++ intelligence, ****loads of dedication and tons of other stuff that the average joe can only dream of having. so yeah, i place them very high on my respect list.

and B, a GP is exactly what his name says he is, a general practician. one should not expect that they know everysingle thing. i understand the doc imn your case. how should he know that you are into bb and know your **** about drugs and supplements? the right answer when some ****head from the street comes in and asks about ephadra, then the answer should be; BAD. the reason for that is quite obvious.

[ectx]

cent, Both Alex and I said that you can't expect them to know everything.

Respect? Yes...
Unconditional blind agreement? No.

[GIS]

Originally posted by Centaurion
its very easy to stand on the sideline and bitch about doctors. do you guys really have an idea how much it takes to become a doctor? i know, i tried and i failed. it requires an average++++ intelligence, ****loads of dedication and tons of other stuff that the average joe can only dream of having. so yeah, i place them very high on my respect list.

WHo cares how smart somebody is. The issue at hand has less to do with how smart somebody is and more to do with the fact that they don't always give the best advice. You should always question your doctor much like you should question what everybody tells you.

[Orange357]

I had a doctor tell me creatine was a steroid once. I just laughed, needless to say I dont go to his practice any longer.

[EdgeCrusher]

I don't like going to doctors, so I, for the most part, rely on what I read for my information. Doctors aren't perfect, so I shouldn't expect them to be correct all the time when I go to see them. I've seen doctors who will misdiagnose something (nothing serious though) and while this isn't a solid reason to never go see one, I don't find the need to take X doctor's opinion to be gold.

And the Ephedra example is a damn good one, because if a doctor is gonna give me advice about a med, shouldn't he really know with hard proof and research whether it is good or bad? Many don't.