Question for Paul, Chris or any experts

[papaya_squishy]

Hey guys, I was having a debate with someone at another forum (guess which one). Basically, the question came down to whether or not training the triceps and delts can improve your bench.

My arguement was that the triceps and delts were a weak link in the bp, sort of like what Chris said about the biceps being a weak link when performing chins.

Wouldn't that make training the tris and delts help improve the bench? I also believe that dips and flyes done properly can help build a chest better than the bp..only my opinion though.

I think that one's bench can be hindered by their weak links if they're not as strong. What's your take on this?

[chris mason]

You are absolutely 100% correct. Anyone who tells you differently is incorrect. Stronger delts and triceps will definitely improve your bench and flys and dips are excellent pec developers, where the bench for many people is not as good an exercise for pec developement. I think that bench pressing is a great overall exercise, but your observations are all spot on.

[papaya_squishy]

Thanks Chris...maybe you can go to MM and scream at those babies there...I'm not very good at posting arguemnts or finding stuff to back what I say,..I'm going by experience and logic in terms of anatomy. Also, does benching involve the lats in any way?

[kat]

Actually Squish, now that you mention it, my bench has gotten alot better since my tris blew up...I didnt really think anything of it....

[chris mason]

I really don't like posting over there because of reasons like this argument with you and they would probably delete the post anyways. Yes, benching does involve the lats to some degree, although primarily as a stabilizer.

[papaya_squishy]

Some people there are pigheaded...would help if I told you that Kat and I are Mods over there?

Lats are involved as stabilizers? How come I checked a particular site that I found to be very reliable does not include lats?

[The Cobra]

Agree with Chris 100%. Anyone that tells you that the chest is always the limiting factor in bench is full of crap or they have a real wimpy rack. As a powerlifter, I'll tell you that triceps are the limiting factor in almost everyone's bench press (if you're using decent form, this can also depend on grip to a degree)! Train your triceps hard if you want a big bench.

[Sinep]

Kat is a mod and since she haven't stopped grounding me..
Flies is a movement requiring alot of techniques and a VERY good muscle-mind link.

[Edited by Sinep on 02-09-2001 at 03:30 PM]

[papaya_squishy]

I usually don't do this but I feel like being an ass today..

as quoted from that thread:

1)Technique & form are 2 different things, you may have good form but your technique is absolutely wrong if you tri's & front delts are limiting your BP. Maybe you are doing them on a Smith Machine which is something I discourage. This is like someone who has their calves
or lower back give out while doing squats----poor technique and potentially dangerous. Try to perform the BP the way I described, and tell me honestly if your tris/delt limit your ability---your lats should be far more involved than your front delts.


2) Flyes & dips are the are the greatest exercises for building chest mass...???!! Dips involve front delts & tri's MUCH more than proper BP's, and heavy flys are a recipe for injury for your front delts. BP do not isolate your chest better that any other exercise, but they, along with incline BP, are the best chest mass building exercises. If your argument were true, you might be telling people to do leg extensions for leg mass instead of squats.

Instead of arguing & disseminating bad information you should attend a Charles Poliquin Seminar or a Westside Strength Seminar, both of which I found to be well worth the money, and learn about Strength Science, compound lifts, proper form, and the difference between
push (eg BP) & pull (eg chins) movements.

Please, respond with reasonable arguemnts so that I can post this there...and I will make sure it doesn't get deleted.

[Paul Stagg]

I'll have to go look at the thread.

Of course your delts and triceps are heavily involved in benching... and WBC training focuses primarily on improving tricep strength!

Simply think about what each of the muscles do, and it is quite easy to see that improving tricep strength would improve your bench press.

[papaya_squishy]

The thread is called "Bench Heavier by Triceps"

[Paul Stagg]

I just read it, and it sounds like everyone is saying pretty much the same thing, just in different ways.

Wether tricep work will help improve your bench will depend on where your sticking point is.

If you get stuck at the bottom, you need to improve your chest strength. If you get stuck mid way or higher, you need to improve your tricep strength.

Most PLers get stuck at the mid point due to the technique they use to explode the bar off their chest (by involving lats, traps, etc, as well as the shortening of the ROM by arching). Once those muscles start to get taken out of the movement, their triceps become the limiting factor.

[kat]

Oh sinep...sometimes youre just such a ...a.....a MAN!!!

[Sinep]

Kat, you witch.. I'm telling mommy

[Darcy Tucker]

Their is absolutely know way that fly's are a better mass developer than bench press when done correctly. Dips are better than fly's but still I can't see them being more effective than bp when both done correctly. Obviously I can't prove this since everybody is different though.

[Edited by Paul Stagg on 02-12-2001 at 09:10 AM]

[chris mason]

Such turmoil. The bench press is a compound exercise where everyone's unique anatomy will make the exercise a little different for them. Their unique anatomy will alter the physics of the movement for them. Another variable is style, how you grip the bar, or what angle you follow as you drive the bar up. One immutable fact is that if you strengthen the involved muscles you will lift more weight. So, if you improved your triceps and your delts, but your chest did not grow at all (hypothetically), you would still be able to bench more. When you perform a bench press you bend your arms at the elbow as you lower the weight. The triceps are what straighten the elbow out. So it follows that if you can more forcibly straighten your elbows you will be able to lift more weight if all other involved muscles remained constant in strength. The same principle holds true for the deltoids.

If you have trouble believing that the lats are involved in the bench, then I suggest you perform the motion of a bench press against a wall and you will notice that your lats are quite forcibly contracted.

Darcy, a fly can build the chest more effectively than a bench press for the simple reason that they isolate the chest to a greater degree. With an isolation (or close to it) motion you are able to direct the stress directly at the target muscle. Compound movements involve multiple muscles which each take a burden of the load. Depending on an indiviual's anatomy the delts or tris may absorb a great deal of the stress in the bench press and the chest gets very little work. A fly will always hit the chest very hard, essentially regardless of anatomy. Isolation exercises can build a PARTICULAR muscle more effectively than compound movements. That being said, compounds movements are more efficient in that they hit more muscles at a given time and that is their beauty. Dips are better than bench presses for chest developement because they better mimic the primary function of the pectoralis major (to bring the arms across the chest and downward) and they provide a greater range of motion due to the narrower grip and the fact that the body does not get in the way.

[Edited by chris mason on 02-09-2001 at 09:42 PM]

[Darcy Tucker]

I understand what you mean but I don't believe some of the things you are saying. Especially how you say the exercises that are best are the ones that mimic the muscles primary function eg "decline bench press". I don't think this exercise is nearly as effective as either incline or flat bench press.

[chris mason]

If you don't agree, why not express why you have your opinion instead of just saying "I don't agree." Explain your position, if it makes sense maybe you will change my mind.

[Darcy Tucker]

I can't really express my opinion since everybody reacts to different exercises differently. For instance I have never had flyes work my chest good. Maybe poor form or something but I have perfect for on the bench press and that's why I like it so much. As for declines. I just think they kind of suck and I bet most people will agree. Even if they do mimic the chest's natural movement I guarantee most people get better results from either incline or flat bp. Everybody is different though so I don't have much to argue.

[body]

The reason most people are going to say declines suck as most people do not have problems in increasing the size of the pec major, while they want to increase the size of the minor so will do more inclines to bring about the change. This is more a question of aesetics rather than overall size.

[Behemouth]

darcy, why do you think that excercises that mimic the primary function of the muscle aren't as good. since decline press is closer to your pectoralis major's natural movement why woulden't it be more effective for building mass on the pec. do you do t-bar rows with your elbows flared out? your supposed to keep them in to your side because that is closer to the primary movement of your lat.

[Darcy Tucker]

I find that decline bench presses stink.

[chris mason]

I think you have made your point in your ever so eloquent manner Darcy. You obviously don't like them. There is certainly no need for you to do them. Maybe your anatomy makes them a less effective exercise for you. That doesn't mean they are ineffective for others. Have you ever considered that you may use poor form on your exercises? You may or may not, but again, if the decline doesn't work for you, don't do them. Arguing about something if you have no basis for the argument is silly. If you don't like something but have no rational basis as to why then just express your opinion and let it be. Don't argue about something based on your preferences. That makes no sense and only illustrates ignorance. I can respect the fact that an exercise may not work for you, but I cannot respect a "personal feeling" argument about why something is no
good.

[Darcy Tucker]

All the things we have been arguing have been personal preference.

[chris mason]

You guys are full of sh!t.
Their is absolutely know way that fly's are a better mass developer than bench press when done correctly
-Darcy Tucker



That doesn't look like your preference. You made a rude statement about the inaccuracy of our ideas, and then did not back it up with a logical argument. That is my point!