flushing the system

[AzBboy]

hi, i was wondering how beneficial it would be to flush the system on a normal basis, say once a month. i use to make a habbit of flushing m'system, but i havent done it in a year or so. i figure it will help eliminate any toxins, give the liver a little helping hand in its mission to cleanse m'system. plus they say that crap about excess protein bad on the liver, so i could protect my future by flushing. any comments? good or bad idea? thanks

[geoffgarcia]

there are different ways to flush different parts of your body.
There isn't a 1 pill solution and most of the solutions require combinations of certain eating habits and supplements. A thorough flush of one system alone might take 2-3 weeks. So I dont think its likely that you can do a full body flush in 1 month.

[Praetorian]

im currently doing a detox program. it takes 3 weeks and im currently in day 6. I feel much better and i think ive dropped a few pounds too. You should try out the 'Herron ActiCleanse - 14day detox program'.

[abwowang]

wait..
what are you guys talking about flushing your system?
you mean duretin or wutevr?.. where u get rid of all the water in ur body?
why is this good.. why is this even needed.. isnt it supposed to be not healthy?
can u fill me in.

[geoffgarcia]

your body can fill with toxins in areas like liver, skin, colon, kidneys etc...
you can flush these various parts to clean your system out.
It has nothing to do with getting rid of water

[abwowang]

how do u flush it

[geoffgarcia]

depends on what your trying to flush, typically there are diet/supplement regiments and sometimes massage and lotions are needed also (for lymphatic system, skin, etc...)

[ectx]

So you folks are honestly talking about "flushing" your liver and kidneys out?

With what? A hose?

Your body's lymphatic system constantly filters these organ systems out. Your immune system also constantly cleans up or scavenges things that shouldn't be there. You don't need pills to "flush" these organ systems out. Plenty of liquids and a healthy diet will do that just fine...just about the only thing that needs to be flushed out...and should occur naturally is you intestinal tract. For that I suggest lots of fiber in your diet.

[geoffgarcia]

Your body's lymphatic system constantly filters these organ systems out. Your immune system also constantly cleans up or scavenges things that shouldn't be there. You don't need pills to "flush" these organ systems out.
Plenty of liquids and a healthy diet will do that just fine...just about the only thing that needs to be flushed out...and should occur naturally is you intestinal tract. For that I suggest lots of fiber in your diet.

ideally all of our engines would run perfectly, and we would all eat a perfect and well balanced diet, but thats not the case.
These things dont do a full "flush" of the system, they just assist the natural processes, just as fiber assists in colon cleansing, or soap in cleaning skin.

[ectx]

Explain to me Geoff how taking certain compounds will "flush" your liver and other organ systems. A link to a website promoting somebody's product won't do. Show me some articles that prove the benefits of said flushings. Show me the documentation. Until I see it, all I'll believe is that this is some new age nonsense somebody came up with to sell you the weeds they have growing in their back yard.

google and pubmed away. I'll be waiting.

[geoffgarcia]

I'm not advocating these things *LOL* I was simply helping Az by doing some google searching to help him!

But for the sake of curiosity (and your challenge!) I will look something up on pubmed!

[ectx]

how about kidney dialysis?
thats basically a flushing technique for your kidneys. would you like an explanation of that?

smartass. Dialysis also ultimately fails in tyring to do what our bodies do naturally..which is my point. Thanks for proving it. I'm also trying to help out Az by showing him that this stuff is bunk. Bunk...BUNK I tell you!

[geoffgarcia]

Milk Thistle Extract is commonly used in liver detox programs

Immunomodulator effect of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases
the immunomodulatory activity of silymarin might be involved in the hepatoprotective action of the drug and improves the depressed immunoreactivity of the patients

Silymarin, the flavonoid extracted from milk thistle, has been studied for treating all types of liver disease. For acute hepatitis, double-blind studies have shown mixed results.[1] [2] A preparation of silymarin complexed with phosphatidylcholine was reported to help sufferers of chronic viral hepatitis. One small pilot study found that at least 420mg of silymarin was necessary each day.[3] A controlled investigation found that silymarin decreased liver damage.[4] One study has suggested that silymarin may be more effective for hepatitis B as opposed to hepatitis C.[5]

Recent findings have shown that silymarin has the ability to block fibrosis, a process that contributes to the eventual development of cirrhosis in persons with inflammatory liver conditions secondary to alcohol abuse or hepatitis.[6] While there are no published clinical trials to date, this action makes milk thistle extract potentially attractive to persons with chronic hepatitis C - particularly those that have not responded to standard drug therapy.

Silybum Marianum (80% extract), 200 to 300mg three times per day, protects the liver. It may also be used as phosphatidylcholine-bound silymarin (100 to 150mg three times per day). In clinical trials, the silymarin-phosphatidylcholine complex has worked better than silymarin by itself for treating liver disorders. A key element in cell membranes, phosphatidylcholine helps the silymarin attach easily to the cell membranes.

[1] Magliulo E, Gagliardi B, Fiori GP. Results of a double blind study on the effect of silymarin in the treatment of acute viral hepatitis carried out at two medical centers. Med Klin 1978;73: pp.1060-5 [in German]
[2] Bode JC, Schmidt U, Durr HK. Silymarin for the treatment of acute viral hepatitis? Report of a controlled trial. Med Klin 1977;72: pp.513-8 [in German]
[3] Vailati A, Aristia L, Sozze E, et al. Fitoterapia 1993;64:219-27
[4] Buzzelli G, Moscarella S, Giusti A, et al. A pilot study on the liver protective effect of silybinphosphatidylcholine complex (IdB 1016) in chronic active hepatitis. Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol 1993;31: pp.456-60
[5] Lirussi F, Okolicsanyi L. Cytoprotection in the nineties: experience with ursodeoxycholic acid and silymarin in chronic liver disease. Acta Physiol Hung 1992;80: pp.363-7
[6] Schuppan D, Strösser W, Burkard G, Walosek G. Legalon® lessens fibrosing activity in patients with chronic liver diseases. Zeits Allgemeinmed 1998;74: pp.577-84
http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/treat/T13209.html

Silymarin ******s the progression of alcohol-induced hepatic fibrosis in baboons.
J Clin Gastroenterol. 2003 Oct;37(4):336-9.
Section of Liver Disease & Nutrition, Bronx VA Medical Center & Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Bronx, New York 10468, USA.
Hepatoprotective effects of silymarin in patients with alcoholic liver disease are controversial. For strict control, this was assessed in non-human primates. Twelve baboons were fed alcohol with or without silymarin for 3 years with a nutritionally adequate diet. RESULTS: Silymarin opposed the alcohol-induced oxidative stress and the rise in liver lipids and circulating ALT. Alcohol also increased hepatic collagen type I by 50% over the 3 years with a significant rise in mRNA for alpha1 (I) procollagen, both prevented by silymarin. There were corresponding morphologic changes: at 36 months, 2 of 6 animals fed alcohol had cirrhosis and 2 septal fibrosis, with perivenular fibrosis in 2, whereas with alcohol + silymarin, there was only 1 cirrhosis and 1 septal fibrosis, with perivenular fibrosis in 2, and virtually no lesions in the remaining 2. CONCLUSIONS: Silymarin ******s the development of alcohol-induced hepatic fibrosis in baboons, consistent with several positive clinical trials. The negative outcome observed in other trials possibly reflects poor compliance resulting in irregular or low silymarin intake. Thus, in view of the innocuity of silymarin, it might be advisable in future clinical studies to insure the controlled administration of sufficient amounts of silymarin.

[geoffgarcia]

Dialysis also ultimately fails in tyring to do what our bodies do naturally..which is my point. Thanks for proving it. I'm also trying to help out Az by showing him that this stuff is bunk. Bunk...BUNK I tell you!

for people with kidney disease or problems dialysis keeps them alive.
Without it they die.
I'd HARDLY consider that bunk...

If your point is that people are going to die eventually then we all agree with you that seems to be the only thing that the dialysis example proves

[geoffgarcia]

methionine is another popular chemical used in liver detox

Evidence Report/Technology Assessment: Number 64
S-Adenosyl-L-Methionine for Treatment of Depression, Osteoarthritis, and Liver Disease
Agency for HealthCare Research and Quality (.gov)

this report was to conduct a search of the published literature on the use of S-adenosyl- L-methionine (SAMe) for the treatment of osteoarthritis, depression, and liver disease; and, on the basis of that search, to evaluate the evidence for the efficacy of SAMe. A broad search revealed sufficient literature to support a detailed review of the use of SAMe for three conditions: depression, osteoarthritis, and cholestasis of pregnancy and intrahepatic cholestasis associated with liver disease.
...
Out of 10 unique studies considered, six studies were included in a meta-analysis of the efficacy of SAMe to relieve pruritus and decrease elevated bilirubin levels associated with intrahepatic cholestasis caused by a variety of liver diseases.

Compared to placebo, treatment with SAMe for pruritus was associated with a risk ratio of 0.45, meaning that patients treated with SAMe were twice as likely as placebo treated patients to have a reduction in pruritus (95 percent CI [0.37, 0.58]).
http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/samesum.htm

SAMe is depleted in liver disease, and its replenishment through supplementation has been demonstrated in several studies. Its methylating properties promote the fluidity of liver lipid membranes. SAMe has been shown to improve functions measured by standard liver and liver-function tests, to increase hepatic glutathione levels in patients with both alcohol and non-alcoholic cirrhosis, to restore normal hepatic function in various forms of cholestasis and prevent or reverse hepatoxicity induced by drugs, alcohol and various chemicals.
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/n...sad_0231.shtml

S-adenosyl-L-methionine
by Ron Kennedy, M.D., Santa Rosa, California

SAMe is the liver's major methyl donor and with glutathione is an integral part of the liver's detoxification process. SAMe is also helps in the processing of fats and oils.
http://www.medical-library.net/sites...esd/_SAMe.html

S-adenosyl-l-methionine and alcoholic liver disease in animal models. Implications for early intervention in human beings - Abstracts
Lieber C. Alcohol 2002;27:173.

(1) both in rodents and in non-human primates, significant SAMe depletion occurs already at early stages of alcoholic liver disease, despite the consumption of adequate diets; (2) the decreased hepatic SAMe concentration and the associated liver lesions, including mitochondrial injury, can be corrected with SAMe supplementation
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._7/ai_94159027

[geoffgarcia]

there is a TON of info out there on EDTA Chelation therapy and how good it is to cleanse the body of toxic metals

here are some detox basics: http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_do...oxificaton.cfm

[ectx]

for people with kidney disease or problems dialysis keeps them alive.
Without it they die.
I'd HARDLY consider that bunk...

If your point is that people are going to die eventually then we all agree with you that seems to be the only thing that the dialysis example proves

dumbass...I don't consider dialysis bunk...I consider the use of other drugs to flush out your system bunk.

[Anthony]

GG, did you notice all your links are concerning liver disease? I'm with ectx on this one, detox programs are bunk.

[geoffgarcia]

GG, did you notice all your links are concerning liver disease?

I did!

however, if you read them you'll note that the effects can benefit even those without disease.
Most detox programs are based on staying away from certain harmful foods and conditions for a period of time so that your system can extract the harmful impurities by itself.
Some mild flushing agents like water and some stimulating herbs simply assist in the catch up process and.


Here are some claims backed up by those studies

silymarin, a bioflavonoid that is a very potent remedy for the liver. Silymarin inhibits free radical damage; free radicals have an adverse effect on the detoxification enzymes of the liver cytochrome P450 system, while silymarin protects those enzymes. Glutathione is destroyed by lead. Silymarin not only prevents the depletion of GSH (glutathione), it even increased this liver-detoxifying enzyme. A sulfur pathway in the liver detoxes lead, and milk thistle helps to boost liver function.

http://www.health4youonline.com/health_and_nutrition_article_liver_detox_silymarin.htm

Silymarin prevents damage to the liver by acting as an antioxidant.

Silymarin is many times more potent in antioxidant activity than vitamin E and vitamin C.

The protective effect of silymarin against liver damage has been demonstrated in a number of experimental studies. Silymarin has been shown to protect against liver damage by extremely toxic chemicals such as carbon tetrachloride, amanita toxin, galactosamine, and praseodymium nitrate.

One of the key manners in which silymarin enhances detoxification reaction is preventing the depletion of glutathione. Glutathione in the liver is critically linked to the liver's ability to detoxify. The higher the glutathione content, the greater the liver's capacity to detoxify harmful chemicals. Typically, when we are exposed to chemicals which can damage the liver, including alcohol, the concentration of glutathione in the liver is substantially reduced. This reduction in glutathione makes the liver cell susceptible to damage. Silymarin not only prevents the depletion of glutathione induced by alcohol and other toxic chemicals, but has been shown to increase the level of glutathione of the liver by up to 35%. Since the ability of the liver to detoxify is largely related to the level of glutathione in the liver, the results of this study seem to indicate that silymarin can increase detoxification reactions by up to 35%

Methionine: Methionine levels are a major determinant in the liver's concentration of sulphur-containing compounds, such as glutathione and cysteine. As methionine is the precursor for the manufacture of cysteine in the body, extra supplementation of this critical amino acid should increase available cysteine. Animal studies have shown that methionine protects rats from the toxic effects of lead and mercury. Chelating agents such as DMSA (dimercapto succinic acid) and DMPS (dimercapto-propane sulfonic acid) bind to cysteine for excretion. L-cysteine bound to mercury (L-penicillamine, N-acetyl-L-cysteine, DMSA and glutathione complexed with methylmercury) resembles the L-methionine molecule and can cross the blood brain barrier. L-methionine inhibits the transport of these complexes into the brain. Methionine increases the bioavailability of glutathione. Most of the cysteine required for the resynthesis of glutathione must originate from methionine and not from cysteine generated by the catabolism of glutathione. Patients taking only D-L-methionine increased mercury excretion in the urine by 60% over the excretion rate before taking the methionine. Lead excretion was also increased. The L-form is rapidly metabolized by the liver and does not offer a sustained antioxidant level. Over half of the D-form is slowly metabolized by the same pathways as excess L, and acts identical to L as an antioxidant. The benefit of the D-L form of methionine is the D form provides sustained blood levels allowing he L-form to be converted to other sulfur antioxidants. Babies need 22 mg/Kg body weight of methionine on a daily basis while adults need 10 mg/Kg of body weight daily.

[ectx]

there is a TON of info out there on EDTA Chelation therapy and how good it is to cleanse the body of toxic metals

here are some detox basics: http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_do...oxificaton.cfm

don't even get me started on chelation therapy.

My point is that these compounds don't "cleanse" your system, or "detoxify" it. You're not flushing out a radiator...your body is much more complex than that.

All these compounds do is at best aid other organ systems in doing their jobs.

I also question some of your sources...pubmed link me and then maybe we'll talk. I'm a bit of a publication snob. If it's not in a reputable journal it doesn't count in my book.

[geoffgarcia]

My point is that these compounds don't "cleanse" your system, or "detoxify" it. You're not flushing out a radiator...your body is much more complex than that.

All these compounds do is at best aid other organ systems in doing their jobs.

sounds like we are in complete agreement

your just hung up on the use of a few buzz words it sounds like

never claimed that these things would give you a brand new 100% perfect liver or kidney or whatever....just that they would assist

I also question some of your sources...pubmed link me and then maybe we'll talk. I'm a bit of a publication snob. If it's not in a reputable journal it doesn't count in my book.

which ones do you question? everything I posted had supporting sources, most of which can be found in pubmed.
Doctors have both the time and inclination to gather all of the supporting studies from pubmed and other sources and put them in reports (some of which I presented above), they should be more than sufficient.

[razorcut]

methionine is another popular chemical used in liver detox

The methionine data is not all that convincing. Also, the studies you've highlighted are all done in people with pre-existing disease (liver failure, etc). When you're to the point of liver failure, you're facing whole world of problems that far outreach a simple methionine deficiency.

Here's some info from a reliable medical journal:
Dietary supplements.
Massey PB - Med Clin North Am - 01-JAN-2002; 86(1): 127-47

"In healthy people, the body makes all of the SAMe that it requires."

"Overall, the data for SAMe are.......far from definitive."

"Many of the studies have significant design flaws, have selection biases, or did not show significant differences (for methionine) over controls."

"Several of the medical conditions for which SAMe appears to work are related to relative deficiencies in folate and vitamin B12....."

[ectx]

sounds like we are in complete agreement

your just hung up on the use of a few buzz words it sounds like

never claimed that these things would give you a brand new 100% perfect liver or kidney or whatever....just that they would assist

which ones do you question? everything I posted had supporting sources, most of which can be found in pubmed.
Doctors have both the time and inclination to gather all of the supporting studies from pubmed and other sources and put them in reports (some of which I presented above), they should be more than sufficient.

The supporting sources were in questionable journals. The Journal Alcohol? Please. Did you read those reports? How do you know that these doctors gathered these sources and put them in reports? FYI, they don't. Folks like me are usually stuck writing their papers, designing their studies, and interpreting the data...only the papers I write go into much better journals.

The information you provided is not sufficient. Most of it is published in journals with a low citation index. The lower the cidex, the less it gets viewed and peer reviewed. Other places you linked to are personal websites. If you'd like I could provide several sources in more reputable journals discounting yours.

Look at goatscrot's search, with which I'm in complete agreement. Several of my biochem prof. also commented on the same point. FYI, they were all Ivy league trained and pioneers in their respective subfields.

Ultimately, I'm not here to argue semantics. What I'm trying to do is help one of our forum readers and community members with something I happen to be quite knowledgeable on. I will not get in a pissing contest with someone who thinks they know more. I will, however, correct them when they are wrong. I'd be doing a disservice to our community if I didn't. If I'm wrong, I expect to be corrected, and I'll gladly accept it.

My point is that I'm not arguing for arguments sake. When I stated that "flushing your system and detoxifying your body" is new-age bunk, I firmly stood by it as a scientist, as a clinical researcher, and as an informed member of our community. If you feel it necessary to spout off information you know second-hand and picked up in a search, feel free to, but don't do it for argument's sake. You're better than that.

[geoffgarcia]

I will not get in a pissing contest with someone who thinks they know more. I will, however, correct them when they are wrong. I'd be doing a disservice to our community if I didn't. If I'm wrong, I expect to be corrected, and I'll gladly accept it.

calm down hero.
I never claimed to know more (or anything for that matter).

Az asked what "flushing" was, I explained it per common product definitions. Plain and simple.

You asked for articles showing benefits of some flushing supplements, and I gave them to you because I didn't know you had access to them yourself. If I had an inkling that you were just asking so you could shoot me down then I wouldn't have bothered searching. I'd never heard of any of those chemicals before. They were the first two that came up when I searched on liver detox so I went with them.

Dont interpret my regurgitation of things on google as my opinion or any attempt to stroke my ego by pretending I know something. I do it because I'm bored and have nothing else to keep me entertained.

[ectx]

calm down hero.

MAKE ME...and proove it in under 10 minutes via a google search.